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  1. #66
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Soundy View Post
    I am not sure where the attended versus unattended appliance thing came from,
    Possibly from sediment traps.

    Sediment traps are required for all gas appliances, with an exception for "illumination" appliances (gas lights) and some other appliances stuck in there with those illumination appliances, but the other appliances would be more correctly termed "attended" appliances as they are 'not automatic' in operation, i.e., and attendant needs to turn the appliance on and begin their operation.

    With gas lights, if sediment puts the light out, you will see it.

    With "attended" appliances, if they do not work, the attending person will (should) know the appliance is not working.

    With automatic operating appliances, such as water heaters, furnaces, etc., they will come on by themselves, no one will be there to see they are not working.

    NHIE Practice Exam
    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  2. #67
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    (underlining is mine)


    No auxiliary drain pan under the furnace which has condensate.

    Jerry,

    Is there a reference that you could quote on this? I have always required drip pans under HVAC units at work, but in a new house that we were looking at in SC (attic installation-Heat Pump), it was conspicuous by its absence----only the condensation drain. I am assuming built-in drip pan.

    Rich


  3. #68
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Rich,

    Go back to the first post and look at the photo (I had to go back there to figure out what was being talked about) and you will see that the furnace in the photo and under discussion has an evaporator coil under it, and that is what the condensate line is from, thus the auxiliary drain pan (or other options stated in the code if also stated in the manufacturer's installation instructions).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  4. #69
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Rich,

    Go back to the first post and look at the photo (I had to go back there to figure out what was being talked about) and you will see that the furnace in the photo and under discussion has an evaporator coil under it, and that is what the condensate line is from, thus the auxiliary drain pan (or other options stated in the code if also stated in the manufacturer's installation instructions).
    Jerry,

    I know there is an internal drip pan with its respective condensate line. But, if I understand you, there is nothing in the code that states that an additional drip pan is required underneath the HVAC unit when installed in a location that should the manufacturer's internal drip pan system fail, prevent the structure from receiving water damage. I know some manufactors of HVAC units state that their internal drip pan is sufficent, but from personal experience they can fail.

    Rich


  5. #70
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Goeken View Post
    I know there is an internal drip pan with its respective condensate line. But, if I understand you, there is nothing in the code that states that an additional drip pan is required underneath the HVAC unit

    The code requires an auxiliary drain pan under the unit ... with exceptions which allow for other methods to replace the auxiliary drain pan, none of which was present in the photo, so I only addressed the auxiliary drain pan - which was not present either.

    For evaporator coils: (underlining and bold are mine)
    - M1411.3.1 Auxiliary and secondary drain systems. In addition to the requirements of Section M1411.3, a secondary drain or auxiliary drain pan shall be required for each cooling or evaporator coil where damage to any building components will occur as a result of overflow from the equipment drain pan or stoppage in the condensate drain piping. Such piping shall maintain a minimum horizontal slope in the direction of discharge of not less than 1/8 unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (1-percent slope). Drain piping shall be a minimum of 3/4-inch (19 mm) nominal pipe size. One of the following methods shall be used:
    - - 1. An auxiliary drain pan with a separate drain shall be installed under the coils on which condensation will occur. The auxiliary pan drain shall discharge to a conspicuous point of disposal to alert occupants in the event of a stoppage of the primary drain. The pan shall have a minimum depth of 1.5 inches (38 mm), shall not be less than 3 inches (76 mm) larger than the unit or the coil dimensions in width and length and shall be constructed of corrosion-resistant material. Metallic pans shall have a minimum thickness of not less than 0.0276-inch (0.7 mm) galvanized sheet metal. Nonmetallic pans shall have a minimum thickness of not less than 0.0625 inch (1.6 mm).
    - - 2. A separate overflow drain line shall be connected to the drain pan provided with the equipment. This overflow drain shall discharge to a conspicuous point of disposal to alert occupants in the event of a stoppage of the primary drain. The overflow drain line shall connect to the drain pan at a higher level than the primary drain connection.
    - - 3. An auxiliary drain pan without a separate drain line shall be installed under the coils on which condensate will occur. This pan shall be equipped with a water level detection device conforming to UL 508 that will shut off the equipment served prior to overflow of the pan. The auxiliary drain pan shall be constructed in accordance with Item 1 of this section.
    - - 4. A water level detection device conforming to UL 508 shall be provided that will shut off the equipment served in the event that the primary drain is blocked. The device shall be installed in the primary drain line, the overflow drain line or the equipment-supplied drain pan, located at a point higher than the primary drain line connection and below the overflow rim of such pan.

    Note that 1. and 3. above are auxiliary drain pans, 2. and 4. are other options.

    For condensing furnaces:
    - M1411.4 Auxiliary drain pan. Category IV condensing appliances shall have an auxiliary drain pan where damage to any building component will occur as a result of stoppage in the condensate drainage system. These pans shall be installed in accordance with the applicable provisions of Section M1411.3.
    - - Exception: Fuel-fired appliances that automatically shut down operation in the event of a stoppage in the condensate drainage system.



    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  6. #71
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    Florida
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The code requires an auxiliary drain pan under the unit ... with exceptions which allow for other methods to replace the auxiliary drain pan, none of which was present in the photo, so I only addressed the auxiliary drain pan - which was not present either....



    Thanks Jerry, that was very clear.

    Rich


  7. #72
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    Mar 2007
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    Fort Worth, Texas
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Soundy View Post
    Ted and Michael,

    From my aspect there appears to be many misconceptions regarding FVIR water heaters and the 18" rule.

    [1] Combustible fumes will and can enter the water heater, but ignition of same will not flow out of the combustion chamber except out through the vent

    Also referring to it as "explosion proof" (somewhere in the beginning of this thread) is completely wrong. There is a BIG difference between "flame proof" housings and "explosion proof" housings (one of them is price > 30 times cost).

    [2] The intent of the 18* rule applies to "unattended" appliances - a receptacle would be considered as something being very much attended and intentional.

    Best regards - Richard
    Which could short or spark from snatching out a plug or just have a loose connection. Spark, fumes, fire.

    Ted Menelly, Castle Home Inspection Services
    www.inspectmycastle.com
    Fort Worth, Keller, Southlake, Plano, Flower Mound, DFW, TX

  8. #73
    Michael Farha's Avatar
    Michael Farha Guest

    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    I don't know where the combustion air would come from on sealed units. Anyone have the answer?


  9. #74
    David Bell's Avatar
    David Bell Guest

    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    "David Bell, what does this have to do with what ANSI standard number and standard date and the phase in manufactured by dates that apply to the various types of gas fired water heaters, and their full compliance with the complete FVIR safety features, when they no longer required 18" of elevation above the floor of for example a garage???"


    I see the bold lettering has done much to keep this thread on topic.


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