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  1. #1
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    Default ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    A couple weeks ago this topic went around and I got some info from a friend at the county inspection office that I wanted to pass along.

    The tanks have to have this rating to be allowed to rest directly on a garage floor.

    Z21.10.1

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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Thanks,
    .
    Z21.10.1

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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    A.O. Smith GVR 50 LINK

    Consumer LINK



  4. #4
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    From the "Consumer LINK":

    "If my water heater is not FVIR, do I need to purchase a new one? No. Your current water heater is a safe and efficient design." (my bold)

    That's quite a statement, considering they don't know what my current water heater is.

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  5. #5
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fellman View Post
    A couple weeks ago this topic went around and I got some info from a friend at the county inspection office that I wanted to pass along.

    The tanks have to have this rating to be allowed to rest directly on a garage floor.

    Z21.10.1
    Matt, that is for your area and that AHJ. It is different all around the country. Regardless of what the model of water heater many AHJ's require them to be elevated.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    The way it was explained to me, this ANSI number meant it had been tested to be resistant to explosions due to low lying vapors. I'm not fully versed on the ANSI testing.

    Is it national? After the testing is it then up to the AHJ whether or not to accept it?


  7. #7
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    (underlining is mine)
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fellman View Post
    The tanks have to have this rating to be allowed to rest directly on a garage floor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fellman View Post
    Is it national? After the testing is it then up to the AHJ whether or not to accept it?
    To some extent, yes.

    However, based on that photo, they will accept anything.

    There is no pan under the water heater.

    The sediment trap is improper.

    There is no secondary condensate drain line on the furnace (secondary opening is plugged with that red plug).

    No auxiliary drain pan under the furnace which has condensate.

    What is that the furnace is setting on? Concrete? Metal?

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  8. #8
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fellman View Post
    The way it was explained to me, this ANSI number meant it had been tested to be resistant to explosions due to low lying vapors. I'm not fully versed on the ANSI testing.

    Is it national? After the testing is it then up to the AHJ whether or not to accept it?
    ANSI is basically a testing/standards organization. It is kind of like a UL rating. Does not mean Diddly Squat to an AHJ. The AHJ should be relying on the various codes. Then we have the manufacturers standards and requirements for their product on top of everything else. IMHO, I think all water heaters need to be elevated 18" if they are in a garage or other similar location. What can it hurt?

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  9. #9
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    It never occurred to me befor, but with HVAC equipment in the garage,how airtight are the panels on the return air panels on these
    machines?
    I don't remember any seal, and I think gasoline fumes could be circulated.
    If concentrations could reach explosive levels (spills etc.) surely they could be drawn into the srtucture as well.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Lowery View Post
    with HVAC equipment in the garage,how airtight are the panels on the return air panels on these machines?
    I don't remember any seal, and I think gasoline fumes could be circulated.
    If concentrations could reach explosive levels (spills etc.) surely they could be drawn into the srtucture as well.
    That is one of the problems I've had with garage installations of AHU.

    The other is energy efficiency (related to both the unconditioned space being around the unit and related to that unconditioned and contaminated air being drawn into the AHU).

    Same applies to AHU in attics.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    I think that the leakage regarding the unconditioned space affecting efficiency is miniscule but gasoline or other chemicals often don't require high concentrations to be a problem. If nothing else a stink.


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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Lowery View Post
    I think that the leakage regarding the unconditioned space affecting efficiency is miniscule ...
    Steve,

    I could go back to when I was in business, heck, I could go back just a few days to when I helped another inspector, and show you photos of AHU after AHU which was not fully taped up or sealed (conduit entries, thermostat cable entires, other openings and entries) which had no attempt to seal them up by the installing HVAC contractor (new houses) or by the serving HVAC contractor (new and existing houses).

    Combine that with the fact that the AHU itself if not in 75 degree conditioned space but is in 95+ degree unconditioned garage and that is a lot of extra Btus which need to be conditioned.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  13. #13

    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Jerry,

    What's wrong with the sediment trap.

    Also, to answer Matt's question since we are in the same area-- the furnace is resting on metal, not wood.


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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore View Post
    What's wrong with the sediment trap.

    The gas line should come down vertically, enter the tee for the sediment trap, the sediment trap is installed up into the bottom of the tee, with the gas line being connected to the side outlet of the tee.

    That way, the debris in the gas stream is blown into, falls into by gravity, the sediment trap at the bottom of the tee.

    As shown, the gas and debris blows over the top of the sediment trap leg, with little, if any, debris settling out of the gas stream down into the sediment trap.

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  15. #15

    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Thanks for answering.

    I thought that with gas being under low pressure, that the debris would likely stick along the bottom of the pipe and drop into the trap.

    Is there a code reference I can cite, or is this best practice?


  16. #16
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    From the IRC Commentary:
    (From the IRC)

    G2419.4 (408.4) Sediment trap. Where a sediment trap is not incorporated as a part of the gas utilization equipment, a sediment trap shall be installed downstream of the equipment shut-off valve as close to the inlet of the equipment as practical. The sediment trap shall be either a tee fitting with a capped nipple in the bottom opening of the run of the tee or other device approved as an effective sediment trap. Illuminating appliances, ranges, clothes dryers, and outdoor grills need not be so equipped.
    (Commentary)
    ❖ In addition to the code requirement, most appliance manufacturers require the installation of a sediment trap (dirt leg) to protect the appliance from debris in the gas. Sediment traps are necessary to protect appliance gas controls from the dirt, soil, pipe chips, pipe joint tapes and compounds, and construction site debris that enters the piping during installation and repairs. Hazardous appliance operation could result from debris entering gas controls and burners. Despite the fact that utilities supply clean gas, debris can enter the piping prior to and during installation on the utility side of the system and on the customer side.

    Sediment traps are designed to cause the gas flow to change direction 90 degrees at the sediment collection point, thus causing the solid or liquid contaminants to drop out of the gas flow. See Commentary Figure G2419.4(1).
    sediment_trap_IRC_Commentary.jpg
    The nipple and cap must not be placed in the branch opening of a tee fitting, because this would not create a change in direction of flow and would allow debris to pass over the collection point. Commentary Figure G2419.4(2)
    sediment_trap_Prohibited_IRC_Commentary.JPG
    illustrates an improper sediment trap that is prohibited by this section. The code does not specify a minimum length for the capped nipple. Three inches minimum is customary. The sediment trap must be downstream of the appliance shutoff valve and as close to the appliance inlet as practical. Requiring the sediment trap to be downstream of the appliance shutoff valve makes sure that the sediment trap is within 6 feet of the appliance inlet. If there is 6 feet or less of piping between a sediment trap and the appliance inlet served, the intent of the code has been met, regardless of the shutoff valve location. Manufactured sediment traps are available that have the configuration of a straight section of pipe and are equipped with cleanout openings. Although it would be wise to install sediment traps at all appliance connections, they are not mandated by code for gas lights, ranges, clothes dryers, and outdoor grills. These appliances are susceptible to harm from debris in gas, especially ranges and clothes dryers, and the appliance manufacturer may require sediment traps where the code does not. The code.s logic is that these appliances are attended while in use therefore, the user would be aware of a problem.


    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 06-14-2008 at 05:57 PM.
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  17. #17
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    I have inspected hundreds of homes every year for the past 4 years that I have lived in Texas. I could probably think hard enough to tell you how many sediment traps I have seen. Literally almost none with the exception of some brand new homes lately and a few existing homes. I would be curious about other Texas inspectors or anyone for that matter if you are finding the same thing.

    Thanks

    Ted


  18. #18

    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Jerry,

    Thanks for taking all of the time to post that info. I'll just be called more of a deal killer now.

    Have the code's changed much over the years as far as the configuration of the sediment trap?

    Many of the older ones are located on the wrong side of the valve, etc. Are they required to be moved/ installed on the proper side (appliance) of the valve during appliance replacement?


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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    I have inspected hundreds of homes every year for the past 4 years that I have lived in Texas. I could probably think hard enough to tell you how many sediment traps I have seen. Literally almost none with the exception of some brand new homes lately and a few existing homes. I would be curious about other Texas inspectors or anyone for that matter if you are finding the same thing.

    Thanks

    Ted
    Ted, this subject has come up often and the answer is always a resounding, yes. It seems that all pipe is clean and all gas is dry in Texas , and since Texas was once and independent nation, then the National codes don't apply here.

    Jim Luttrall
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  20. #20
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Texas is the wild west regarding building codes (at least in and around Houston). Rarely do I see them (sediment traps) and if I do, they are almost always installed wrong.

    Do some work out in the counties, there almost anything goes.


  21. #21
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    I still write them up. Do any of you bother????

    After about 6 months in Texas I was going to stop writing them up altogether. To be honest with you some times I don't write them up now.

    Just curious

    Ted


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    Cool Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Well plowed ground here but yes, you should write them up. Traps are not just for wet gas condensates. They are also for particulates. They are required by both gas codes and most mfrs. listed instructions. When an AHJ fails to call out a code issue. that does not re-write the code. If there is an incident, I can assure you the presence or lack of a trap, its configuration and contents will alll be considered in the case. If the incident was caused by debris clogging the valve, you can bet your sweet bippy the valve mfr. will do everything they can to prove a trap would have averted the issue.
    Bob

    Keep the fire in the fireplace.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Harper View Post
    yes, you should write them up.
    Absolutely write them up. If there is ever a problem, you will want your name on the side which said 'fix it', not the side which says 'defendant'.

    Traps are not just for wet gas condensates. They are also for particulates. They are required by both gas codes and most mfrs. listed instructions.
    To clarify Bob's response, there are two types of traps:
    1 ) *ALWAYS required* - sediment traps, which are for particulates.

    2) Required where the gas company or AHJ requires them - drip legs, which are for condensate from wet gas.

    The two traps are not only for two different purposes, but are required to be installed in different locations for their different purposes.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 06-16-2008 at 07:37 AM. Reason: speeelin'
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  24. #24
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Why thank you gentlemen.

    I am aware their use, the codes and manufacturers requirements.

    I was just curious about whether or not other folks are writing there absence up even in states and or local municipalities where they do not require them to be installed even if code and manufacturers installation requires them to be in place. I do write it up (most of the time) with a brief explanation about the actual requirements.

    Ted


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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Ted, I created a standard blurb in the Gas Lines section of the report which says that I did not find the required sediment traps. I can delete it more easily than writing the same finding every single report. (I have not had to delete it since adding it to the format)

    Jim Luttrall
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  26. #26
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Thanks Jim

    I would like to see it. This whole blurring thing about it is code, manufacturers require it and Texas doesn't care makes me kinda wonder sometimes. I have one in my drop down menu but I keep thinking of a new ways of wording it. Pushing the whole code thing just pi--es people off because no one fixes it and Texas doesn't require it. I try not to be to soft on the issue because it should be there.

    I'm sure you know what I am saying. I would appreciate someone's opinion or phrasing.

    Thanks

    Ted


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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Why thank you gentlemen.

    I am aware their use, the codes and manufacturers requirements.

    I was just curious about whether or not other folks are writing there absence up even in states and or local municipalities where they do not require them to be installed even if code and manufacturers installation requires them to be in place. I do write it up (most of the time) with a brief explanation about the actual requirements.

    Ted
    I've had pretty good luck [providing the customer pushed the issue with the builder] by stating, failure to install will void the mfg warranty, and quoting word for word from the installation manual.
    The one builders argue most is on the units where the mfg states, should be installed, instead of must or shall be installed.


  28. #28
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    (underlining is mine)




    To some extent, yes.

    However, based on that photo, they will accept anything.

    There is no pan under the water heater.

    The sediment trap is improper.

    There is no secondary condensate drain line on the furnace (secondary opening is plugged with that red plug).

    No auxiliary drain pan under the furnace which has condensate.

    What is that the furnace is setting on? Concrete? Metal?

    Here in Illinois, there is no need for a pan under the water heater or AHU as long as there is a near by floor drain and the unit is on a slab IE. basement floor or garage. Only other reason for a pain is if the leaking water can cause property damage (floor slopped away from floor drain toward the walls).

    The sediment trap is indeed improper, as well as having flex line. Water heaters here are to be hard piped.

    One thing I am not seeing is the tube for the P&T Valve,(might be behind heater) But it supposed to come down with in 6 inches of the floor.

    Another point is 98% of the water heaters are sealed combustion with the vapor guard system on them. The other 2% are either old stock, or commercial heaters. In Illinois if it is the new style heater being installed in a garage it needs to be inches off floor.

    In short, check with your local plumbing inspector what your city/county plumbing code requires. As a licensed plumber here in the Chicago area, I always check the code books, and if they are unclear I ask the inspector what he wants.


  29. #29
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Harris View Post
    The one builders argue most is on the units where the mfg states, should be installed, instead of must or shall be installed.
    Dan,

    You probably didn't see this the other times I've posted it, but ...

    "should" is past tense of "shall"

    I.e., "You shall do this." and "You should have done that."



    From the 2006 IRC.
    - SECTION R201
    - - GENERAL
    - - - R201.1 Scope.
    Unless otherwise expressly stated, the following words and terms shall, for the purposes of this code, have the meanings indicated in this chapter.

    - - - R201.2 Interchangeability.
    Words used in the present tense include the future; words in the masculine gender include the feminine and neuter; the singular number includes the plural and the plural, the singular.

    - - - R201.3 Terms defined in other codes.
    Where terms are not defined in this code such terms shall have meanings ascribed to them as in other code publications of the International Code Council.

    - - - R201.4 Terms not defined.
    Where terms are not defined through the methods authorized by this section, such terms shall have ordinarily accepted meanings such as the context implies.
    SHALL.
    The term, when used in the code, is construed as mandatory.



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  30. #30
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Dan,

    You probably didn't see this the other times I've posted it, but ...

    "should" is past tense of "shall"

    I.e., "You shall do this." and "You should have done that."



    From the 2006 IRC.
    - SECTION R201
    - - GENERAL
    - - - R201.1 Scope.
    Unless otherwise expressly stated, the following words and terms shall, for the purposes of this code, have the meanings indicated in this chapter.

    - - - R201.2 Interchangeability.
    Words used in the present tense include the future; words in the masculine gender include the feminine and neuter; the singular number includes the plural and the plural, the singular.

    - - - R201.3 Terms defined in other codes.
    Where terms are not defined in this code such terms shall have meanings ascribed to them as in other code publications of the International Code Council.

    - - - R201.4 Terms not defined.
    Where terms are not defined through the methods authorized by this section, such terms shall have ordinarily accepted meanings such as the context implies.
    SHALL.
    The term, when used in the code, is construed as mandatory.

    Thanks Jerry.
    Your definition of should is different from the builders here.
    They claim it's just a recommendation, and thus it's not really required.
    I'll put your definition to good use.


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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Ron Hasil does not show up as an Illinois state Licensed inspector, so who are you Ron?


  32. #32
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Appears to be a pumber as stated


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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Duchene View Post
    Ron Hasil does not show up as an Illinois state Licensed inspector, so who are you Ron?
    Steve,

    As Ted said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Hasil View Post
    As a licensed plumber here in the Chicago area,
    I know many here jump on checking on state licensing status, but the first thing to do is to read the posts clearly.

    I'm guessing that is an Oops! I hear in the background?

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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Duchene View Post
    Ron Hasil does not show up as an Illinois state Licensed inspector, so who are you Ron?
    AS a few of the fellow posters pointed out I stated I am a Licensed Plumber in Illinois. PL # 058-160417 is my number. I been a Licensed plumber for over 17 years now. I am also a Licensed sewer and drain layer with the City of Chicago. SL340 is that number. Also I am a Cross Connection Device Inspector in the state of Illinois. My company is A - Archer Sewer and Plumbing Service. A - Archer Sewer & Plumbing Service

    I do hope this clears up your questions about me. Feel free to pick my brain on any coding questions for Chicago and any part of Illinois. Reason I stated Chicago separate from Illinois is that Chicago has its own code. It is a stricter version that most of Cook County uses.


  35. #35
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    I saw a water heater today with ANSI Z21.10.1b-1994.

    This was installed on a stand as it should be as it did not have a sealed chamber. So I think there must be more than just the "Z21.10.1" part of the code that indicates that it is not required to be on a stand.


  36. #36
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Crouse View Post
    I saw a water heater today with ANSI Z21.10.1b-1994.

    This was installed on a stand as it should be as it did not have a sealed chamber. So I think there must be more than just the "Z21.10.1" part of the code that indicates that it is not required to be on a stand.
    "I saw a water heater today with ANSI Z21.10.1b-1994."

    There is ... (I added the bold) ... "ANSI Z21.10.1b-1994."

    That is why the year is stated - it meets *that standard* for *that year edition*, and, like other standards and codes, they get revised.

    That's like saying that bathroom receptacles do not need GFCIs protection, not according to the NEC. You would be correct, of course though, you would need to clarify that you are referring to the 1971 NEC or an earlier edition of the NEC.

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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Jerry,

    Exactly my point. Apparently, the Z21.10.1 is not enough to determine whether or not the WH requires to be elevated or not.

    Question is: is there a date after which, along with this ANSI #, the WH is not required to be elevated?

    Brent


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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Crouse View Post
    Question is: is there a date after which, along with this ANSI #, the WH is not required to be elevated?
    Brent,

    Yes.



    But I don't know what that year is.

    I'm sure some others here do know it.

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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Reviving an older thread to add information for the transition time period, after receiving several questions in the recent past, so hopefully this thread will show up with a search, and now contain the information for anyone.

    Although the article discussion cited & linked below starts off with larger, higher temperature & Commercial and Electric WHs, it also includes discussion on residential gas-fired units, & specifically the "phase-in" dates on manufacturer for FVIR.

    Clickable Link to PM Engineer May 5, 2004 Article by Tommy Olsen "Water Heaters: Engineered for Safety" : Water Heaters: Engineered for Safety - Cover Story - PM Engineer____


    Quote Originally Posted by Above cited & linked article
    Residential gas water heaters (75,000 Btu/h and less) are certified to ANSI Z21.10.1-2002. Like commercial gas water heaters, residential heaters are subject to similar construction and performance criteria. The main difference is a new safety standard, which went into effect July 1, 2003.


    ANSI Z21.10.1a-2002 addresses the problem caused by improper storage or use of gasoline or other flammable liquids near residential gas-fired water heaters. To meet the new Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistance (FVIR) Standard, a water heater must be designed so it cannot ignite flammable vapors caused by spilled gasoline outside the unit. Initially covering residential gas-fired water heaters with storage capacities of 30-, 40- or 50-gallon capacities, the new standard will eventually cover all residential gas-fired models. (Figure 1 shows the complete implementation schedule.)

    Figure 1. FVIR Implementation Schedule for Gas-Fired Water Heaters
    Phase Gallon Capacity Type Effective Date
    I 30, 40, 50 Conventional July 1, 2003
    II 30, 40, 50 Power-Vented January 1, 2005
    III Remaining Product July 1, 2005
    Units may still need elevation i.e. avoiding direct contact with slab, sub level installs, area prone to flooding, and other reasons required by local code (requiring pan of larger size so as to not strangle the intake, etc.. Some jurisdictions are/were slower to retract a floor clearance especially in DUSTY/particulate prone areas (garages, laundries, etc.) since there have been "issues" with some of these units maintaining the "screen" (keeping clean) clear for the intake, thus causing the units to shut down. The difficulty in accessing and verifying by the homeowner that the screen is vacuumed/brushed clear on some of these models has been a topic of frequent discussion by AJHs and Fire Safety Authorities, consumers, and testing labs in reviewing product complaints in recent years.

    The last section is the year of the Standard Edition/publication, not necessarily the effective date of all or part of its provisions. The Label/sticker/"Certification Plate" is applied at production only after the ASME 3rd party has completed the hydrostatic test on the water heating vessel - that certification date/manufacture date is on or after the phase-in dates above it should be FVIR if a Residential unit.

    The Original Poster included a photo of the certification plate ("label") which cited the ANSI Standard number and edition which was 2004. The "build date" was either 2006 or 2008 couldn't make out the last digit of the year, but well after the final phase in date.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 03-17-2010 at 11:54 AM.

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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters


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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    I have inspected hundreds of homes every year for the past 4 years that I have lived in Texas. I could probably think hard enough to tell you how many sediment traps I have seen. Literally almost none with the exception of some brand new homes lately and a few existing homes. I would be curious about other Texas inspectors or anyone for that matter if you are finding the same thing.

    Thanks

    Ted
    I haven't required them in the past, however we are in a transition period getting the "old timers" to recognize that a sediment trap is required if the appliance does not have one built in! This is like pulling teeth getting them on board with this!!

    These plumbers are the ones with the overalls on, snuff drooling down their chins....HARRRRRK....SPPPPLAT...NEVER HAD TO DO THAT BEFORE! NOBODY ELSE REQUIRES THAT!!!

    Well, maybe around here, but it is required! So if you want this green thingy, you're gonna have to install one!


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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Crouse View Post
    Jerry,

    Exactly my point. Apparently, the Z21.10.1 is not enough to determine whether or not the WH requires to be elevated or not.

    Question is: is there a date after which, along with this ANSI #, the WH is not required to be elevated?

    Brent
    I believe water heaters manufactured after 2000 were required to meet these standards.


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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle View Post
    I believe water heaters manufactured after 2000 were required to meet these standards.
    Sigh. Strongly held "beliefs" are difficult to debate. The Standards, and what has been published are however factual.

    The 2002 Standard established stage phase-in for FVIR, I just said that. 2004 edition may have revised the dates for Stage II and III (pushing them to a more recent date).


  44. #44
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Sigh. Strongly held "beliefs" are difficult to debate.
    HG: No, they are impossible to debate with the entrenched of mind.

    The Standards, and what has been published are however factual.
    HG: Facts just don't mean a thang [sic] to most Texas AHJs. And them's the facts.


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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    The new American National Standard Institute standard (ANSI Z21.10.1a) was approved in two parts: The first requirement, for flammable vapors-ignition-resistance, was approved in February 2000; and the second requirement, for the heater to be resistant to lint, dust and oil accumulation, was approved in November 2002. The final standard, incorporating both parts, became effective on July 1, 2003. All 30, 40, and 50-gallon gas storage type water heaters manufactured after this date are expected to comply with the national safety standard.


    Well I'll be damned! I believe my belief was correct!

    New Technology In Gas Water Heaters Can Save Lives<br> CPSC, GAMA Say New Heaters Will Prevent Fires from Flammable Vapors


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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    That old CPSC news release as written, was wrong the day it was released (as to the phase-in dates and the facts) and still is. It is not a correct representation as to the history, the facts, or what the Standards say. A consensus approval and publication date of a Standard is not necessarily the effective date of every newly formed requirement within the Standard, if you were familiar with the Standards you'd know that. DOE had more to do with the industry approach and consensus than CPSC ever did.

    NOBODY cites CPSC news releases as authoritative regarding representations of or interpretations of manufacturer's instructions, Standards or Code, not even the Federal Court system!

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 03-17-2010 at 03:18 PM.

  47. #47
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    New Water Heater Standard: Rheem System Goes Beyond

    July 18, 2003

    ARTICLE TOOLS
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    The U.S. water heater industry is implementing a significant product design change that incorporates a new technology — flammable vapor ignition resistance or FVIR — that will help prevent problems caused by improper storage or use of gasoline and other flammable liquids near residential gas-fired water heaters. As of July 1, 2003, new residential gas-fired units manufactured with storage capacities of 30, 40, or 50 gallons must meet American National Standards Institute (ANSI) standard, ANSI Z21.10.1-2001. (For details on the new standard, see the feature article “Water Heater Design Changes In The Works” in the July 21, 2003 issue of The News.)


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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    FVIR Implementation Schedule for Gas-Fired Water Heaters per ANSI Z21.10.1a-2002:

    30, 40, 50 Gal. Residential, Conventional: July 1, 2003

    30, 40, 50 Gal. Residential, Power-Vented: January 1, 2005

    Residential, other capacities & types: (Remaining Product): July 1, 2005

    Residential gas water heaters (75,000 Btu/h and less) were certified to ANSI Z21.10.1-2002. Like commercial gas water heaters, residential heaters are subject to similar construction and performance criteria. The main difference is a new safety standard, which went into effect July 1, 2003.

    ANSI Z21.10.1a-2002 addresses the problem caused by improper storage or use of gasoline or other flammable liquids near residential gas-fired water heaters. To meet the new Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistance (FVIR) Standard, a water heater must be designed so it cannot ignite flammable vapors caused by spilled gasoline outside the unit. Initially covering CONVENTIONAL residential gas-fired water heaters with storage capacities of 30-, 40- or 50-gallon capacities, the new standard will eventually cover all residential gas-fired models. (I.E. Category types - I, III, IV)

    Folks you are CONFUSING the effective date for manufacture for different category types of storage type water heaters, residential. Three different dates for complying with two different feature systems.

    Answering the OPs question is the full FVIR standard which brings the WH to the floor (the air/gas shut off system, not just the flame arrestor PLATE) - and ONLY CONVENTIONAL type (natural/gravity draft, draft HOOD; NOT W/Hs with a storage capacity other than 30, 40 or 50 gals, and NOT those GAS fired residential W/Hs utilizing MECHANICAL DRAFT or INDUCED DRAFT) had the 2003 date for full FVIR compliance; Those fan assisted assisted draft types (Mechanical Draft OR Induced Draft) of any size or partially condensing, or those of capacities OTHER than 30, 40 & 50 gallons; those dates were in 2005 as set out in the 2002 ANSI standard.

    The earlier phase-in date for Res. WHs refers to Category I and for the other categories the required flame arrestor plate ( which prevents a flammable vapor fire inside the water heater from igniting outside the water heater). It was the second part of a full FVIR compliant W/H that the phase-in dates for the OTHER category type W/Hs (III, IV) that is the air and gas shut off system portion that had later dates and the phase-in for other than conventional type I (i.e. draft assisted or power vent - and other sizes (capacity) & non-conventional (power vent, draft assisted) configurations for residential were later phase in dates for date of manufacture.

    As I said before, IIRC the later approved/issuance date of the Standard (2004 or fully until 2006, IIRC) pushed the date for the non-Cat-I Res W/Hs (Category III or IV - Mechanical draft or induced draft) of other than 30, 40 & 50 gal. capacity even further (06) as a requirement by date of manufacturer. Manufacturers for models that Met the complete Standard for FVIR earlier than the requirement, the units would be so marked (by the Standard number & edition date in addition to the date of manufacturer on the "plate" (label), and indicated in the manufacturer's instructions.

    Direct Vent Appliances. Appliances that are constructed and installed so that all air for combustion is derived directly from the outdoors and all flue gases are discharged to the outdoors.

    Fan-Assisted Combustion Appliance. An appliance equipped with an integral mechanical means to either draw or force products of combustion through the combustion chamber or heat exchanger.

    Category I Vented Appliance. An appliance that operates with a nonpositive vent static pressure and with a vent gas temperature that avoids excessive condensate production in the vent.

    Category II Vented Appliance. An appliance that operates with a nonpositive vent static pressure and with a vent gas temperature that may cause excessive condensate production in the vent.

    Category III Vented Appliance. An appliance that operates with a positive vent static pressure and with a vent gas temperature that avoids excessive condensate production in the vent.

    Category IV Vented Appliance. An appliance that operates with a positive vent static pressure and with a vent gas temperature that may cause excessive condensate production in the vent.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 03-18-2010 at 07:19 AM.

  49. #49
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    "Direct Vent Appliances. Appliances that are constructed and installed so that all air for combustion is derived directly from the outdoors and all flue gases are discharged to the outdoors."

    Direct vent appliances do not necessarily derive thier cumbustion air from outdoors.


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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bell View Post
    "Direct Vent Appliances. Appliances that are constructed and installed so that all air for combustion is derived directly from the outdoors and all flue gases are discharged to the outdoors."

    Direct vent appliances do not necessarily derive thier cumbustion air from outdoors.

    Yeah they do, or they are not "direct vent" appliances.

    From the IRC: (underlining and bold are mine)
    - DIRECT-VENT APPLIANCE. A fuel-burning appliance with a sealed combustion system that draws all air for combustion from the outside atmosphere and discharges all flue gases to the outside atmosphere.


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  51. #51
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Let the whippings begin. I may have taken to much spring sun today. My direct vent furnace becomes a condensing gas furnace if it does not bring all its combustion air from outdoors. The furnace is the same,just the names have changed to protect the innocent.


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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bell View Post
    I may have taken to much spring sun today.
    Well, it IS spring ... or at least it is supposed to be spring.

    My direct vent furnace becomes a condensing gas furnace if it does not bring all its combustion air from outdoors.
    Huh?

    Either it is configured as a "direct vent" furnace or it is not. If it does not take all combustion air from outdoors *all the time* then it is not a "direct vent" furnace.

    Are you saying that the "direct vent" configuration changes? That sometimes all the combustion air is taken from outdoors and sometimes it is not? That either you manually, or the furnace automatically, changes the vent configuration?

    You need to explain more what you are referring to???

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  53. #53
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    The configuration of the furnace can be changed to use the surrounding space for cumbustion air providing the sq footage and air infiltration numbers are acceptable. Basically its just a matter of leaving the intake piping off.


  54. #54
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    There also can be no naturally drafted appliances in the space.


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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bell View Post
    The configuration of the furnace can be changed to use the surrounding space for cumbustion air

    *DO* you change the configuration of it?

    If so, then your installation would need to meet the requirements of BOTH direct vent and non-direct vent installations, something which is likely next to impossible.

    Hopefully Bob H. will comment on this as I don't see how a direct vent installation can legally be changed to non-direct vent without changing the vent and everything else, with I doubt you do when you change it over - *IF* you change it over, which is what you said you did when you said "My direct vent furnace becomes a condensing gas furnace if it does not bring all its combustion air from outdoors."

    Please explain.

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  56. #56
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    The furnace can be installed as a 1 pipe or 2 pipe system.


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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bell View Post
    The furnace can be installed as a 1 pipe or 2 pipe system.
    "Can be", but which IS IT installed as?

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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bell View Post
    "Direct Vent Appliances. Appliances that are constructed and installed so that all air for combustion is derived directly from the outdoors and all flue gases are discharged to the outdoors."

    Direct vent appliances do not necessarily derive thier cumbustion air from outdoors.
    Well Mr. Bell you're quoting from my post, so I guess you wanted me to respond...Some DV appliance manufacturers do allow within their instructions to take combustion air from within a naturally well ventillated attic (no turbines, no fans up there), calling the unconditioned open to atmosphere "outdoors" enough, I have been told (not read this myself from mfg instructions) that taking combustion air from unconditioned, well vented (naturally)crawlspaces has also been done.

    But having the intake and the exhaust on the same plane of the home and not on the windward side, is very important for the system with a sealed direct intake source to sealed combustion chamber and a sealed exhaust vent to the same plane as the intake to work efficiently and safely. Some problems can result when pressures change, winds blowing, etc. causing safety lockouts and such.

    see below.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bell View Post
    Let the whippings begin. I may have taken to much spring sun today. My direct vent furnace becomes a condensing gas furnace if it does not bring all its combustion air from outdoors. The furnace is the same,just the names have changed to protect the innocent.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bell View Post
    The configuration of the furnace can be changed to use the surrounding space for cumbustion air providing the sq footage and air infiltration numbers are acceptable. Basically its just a matter of leaving the intake piping off.
    I've never heard of this for a DIRECT VENT appliance WITH SEALED COMBUSTION CHAMBER., an induced or mechanical draft furnace perhaps? One of those mid-range (high 80s percent) late 90s gas furnaces perhaps?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bell View Post
    There also can be no naturally drafted appliances in the space.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bell View Post
    The furnace can be installed as a 1 pipe or 2 pipe system.
    This "one pipe", "two pipe" description isn't quite computing.

    Concentric venting would you call that one pipe (vent)? You'd still need to connect the appliance to it...Many, if not most direct vented gas-fired appliances can be connected to concentric venting.

    two pipes - ? "IN"nie pipe (intake/combustion air vent) and "OUT"ie pipe(exhaust vent)?

    one "pipe" - ? Exhaust only? how do you get the combustion air into the direct vent combustion chamber - don't you still use some "pipe" (vent/connector) just a shorter length of "pipe"? its origin is just in the room, yes? OR did you actually mean CONCENTRIC VENT "pipe".

    Not sure how the discussion turned to furnaces, but I believe there has been some topic threads in the past regarding direct venting vs. induced draft furnaces, and earlier slightly more efficient power vented or induced draft furnaces not always having sealed combustion chambers.

    IIRC Some Direct Vent gas fired furnace manufacturers do provide information which might allow the intake to be in an OPEN to the outdoors naturally ventillated attic with sufficient air exchange or a similarly naturally well ventillated crawlspace for combustion air and still vent the appliance to the outdoors, efficency is usually less when done, and problems can occur with wind blowing, etc. since pressures aren't equal as they would be if both intake and exhaust are on the same plane of the home, not on the prevailing wind side, etc. I personally do not know of a direct vented furnace (sealed combustion chamber) manufacturer or model which allows for using combustion air from the mechanical room where the furnace is located. I have seen fan assisted draft furnaces with not sealed combustion chambers which are set up to be direct vented but may be supplied with combustion air from the mechanical room if of sufficient size, etc.

    As JP said, Bob Harper or David R may be able to provide more precise examples and answers since I believe they both have more experience with gas fired furnaces.

    If an Induced draft, mechanical draft or fan assisted, (gas-fired appliance) furnace, sounds like it could still be a Cat IV appliance maybe Cat III, depending on the exhaust temperature, just not being with a direct vent configuration anymore (assuming the mfg has approved this configuration) - if you're not DIRECT VENTING it (intake/combustion air from outdoors as well as products of combustion vented outdoors) - more like the "power venting" semi-condensing W/Hs that take combustion air/make up air from indoors but the exhaust vent is under positive pressure - no open draft hood, and fan either pushes air into combustion area or sucks it out of combustion area through sealed venting and exhausts it outdoors.

    David Bell, what does this have to do with what ANSI standard number and standard date and the phase in manufactured by dates that apply to the various types of gas fired water heaters, and their full compliance with the complete FVIR safety features, when they no longer required 18" of elevation above the floor of for example a garage???


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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    FVIR Implementation Schedule for Gas-Fired Water Heaters per ANSI Z21.10.1a-2002:

    30, 40, 50 Gal. Residential, Conventional: July 1, 2003

    30, 40, 50 Gal. Residential, Power-Vented: January 1, 2005

    Residential, other capacities & types: (Remaining Product): July 1, 2005

    "Residential gas water heaters (75,000 Btu/h and less) were certified to ANSI Z21.10.1-2002. Like commercial gas water heaters, residential heaters are subject to similar construction and performance criteria. The main difference is a new safety standard, which went into effect July 1, 2003. "

    "ANSI Z21.10.1a-2002 addresses the problem caused by improper storage or use of gasoline or other flammable liquids near residential gas-fired water heaters. To meet the new Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistance (FVIR) Standard, a water heater must be designed so it cannot ignite flammable vapors caused by spilled gasoline outside the unit. Initially covering CONVENTIONAL residential gas-fired water heaters with storage capacities of 30-, 40- or 50-gallon capacities, the new standard will eventually cover all residential gas-fired models. (I.E. Category types - I, III, IV)"

    Folks you are CONFUSING the effective date for manufacture for different category types of storage type water heaters, residential. Three different dates for complying with two different feature systems.

    Answering the OPs question is the full FVIR standard which brings the WH to the floor (the air/gas shut off system, not just the flame arrestor PLATE) - and ONLY CONVENTIONAL type (natural/gravity draft, draft HOOD; NOT W/Hs with a storage capacity other than 30, 40 or 50 gals, and NOT those GAS fired residential W/Hs utilizing MECHANICAL DRAFT or INDUCED DRAFT) had the 2003 date for full FVIR compliance; Those fan assisted assisted draft types (Mechanical Draft OR Induced Draft) of any size or partially condensing, or those of capacities OTHER than 30, 40 & 50 gallons; those dates were in 2005 as set out in the 2002 ANSI standard.

    The earlier phase-in date for Res. WHs refers to Category I and for the other categories the required flame arrestor plate ( which prevents a flammable vapor fire inside the water heater from igniting outside the water heater). It was the second part of a full FVIR compliant W/H that the phase-in dates for the OTHER category type W/Hs (III, IV) that is the air and gas shut off system portion that had later dates and the phase-in for other than conventional type I (i.e. draft assisted or power vent - and other sizes (capacity) & non-conventional (power vent, draft assisted) configurations for residential were later phase in dates for date of manufacture.

    As I said before, IIRC the later approved/issuance date of the Standard (2004 or fully until 2006, IIRC) pushed the date for the non-Cat-I Res W/Hs (Category III or IV - Mechanical draft or induced draft) of other than 30, 40 & 50 gal. capacity even further (06) as a requirement by date of manufacturer. Manufacturers for models that Met the complete Standard for FVIR earlier than the requirement, the units would be so marked (by the Standard number & edition date in addition to the date of manufacturer on the "plate" (label), and indicated in the manufacturer's instructions.
    Wayne Carlisle and others seem to have confused the ANSI standard date (2002) and the guard plate requirement effective date of mfg (July 1, 2003) with the phase in schedule for the requirement based on manufacture date for three categories of gas fired storage type water heaters complying with the full FVIR standards

    Think of it like the AFCI protection for bedrooms - first appearing in the 2002 NEC but not effective/required until Jan 1, 2005 and could be done with device installed outside of the breaker box, mentioned again in the 2005 NEC with provisions requiring combination breakers/AFCI after a date certain then later requirements for just about every outlet 120V which was not specifically required to be GFCI protected be AFCI protected. Nothing prohibited one from adding AFCI protection for bedrooms or any other circuit prior to January 1, 2005, if one had the means (listed equipment to install, etc.) to do so.

    As mentioned previously IIRC the Standard was modified again, approved and published on/about 2004. They may have re-set the requirement date for Phase II and Phase III to a later date.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 03-22-2010 at 12:58 AM.

  60. #60
    Mark T. Denton's Avatar
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    IRC P2801.6 requires a water heater in a garage to be 18" above finished floor to the source if ignition. Your local jurisdiction has the final say. They may or may not require it. I would write it up anyway along with the rest of the issues.


  61. #61
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    In Oklahoma only the ones with sealed burner chambers can be on the floor. They changed the wording in the code a couple of years ago to allow this. The sealed chamber won't allow combustible fumes to enter.


  62. #62
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Farha View Post
    In Oklahoma only the ones with sealed burner chambers can be on the floor. They changed the wording in the code a couple of years ago to allow this. The sealed chamber won't allow combustible fumes to enter.
    Where does the combustion air come from for the flame to actually take place ??????

    I have heard that one before.

    I think the wording is "possible" combustion source.

    I write up receptacles in garages that are below 18 inches as they are a possible combustion source.


  63. #63
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Ted and Michael,

    From my aspect there appears to be many misconceptions regarding FVIR water heaters and the 18" rule.

    [1] Combustible fumes will and can enter the water heater, but ignition of same will not flow out of the combustion chamber except out through the vent

    Also referring to it as "explosion proof" (somewhere in the beginning of this thread) is completely wrong. There is a BIG difference between "flame proof" housings and "explosion proof" housings (one of them is price > 30 times cost).

    [2] The intent of the 18* rule applies to "unattended" appliances - a receptacle would be considered as something being very much attended and intentional.

    Best regards - Richard


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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Soundy View Post
    [2] The intent of the 18* rule applies to "unattended" appliances
    Incorrect.

    The 18" elevation of ignition source applies to *all* ignition sources.

    a receptacle would be considered as something being very much attended and intentional.

    I guess you've never seen water heater recirculation system pumps at water heaters plugged in to receptacle outlets installed down low ... ??? Those receptacles, and others, are certainly not "attended" at all.

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  65. #65
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    Default Re: ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters

    Jerry,

    Thank you for your statements. I stand corrected and a more wiser man.

    The receptacle argument was rather dumb on my part since many so called unattended appliances or devices can easily become permanent plug-in fixtures.

    I am not sure where the attended versus unattended appliance thing came from, but it was sort off "hooked" in my mind, and generally when this occurs there is normally a specific reason. For the life of me, I cannot remember where and how. Perhaps you may know the history regarding this subject?

    I ask this question because I inspect many, many homes with washer dryers in the garage and not a single one is raised off the floor level.

    Best regards - Richard


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