Thread: Traps

Definitions:

Valve - A valve is a device that regulates the flow of substances (either gases, fluidized solids, slurries, or liquids) by opening, closing, or partially obstructing various passageways. Valves are technically pipe fittings, but usually are discussed separately.


mechanical device - Mechanism consisting of a device that works on mechanical principles

mechanism - Device consisting of a piece of machinery; has moving parts that perform some function

mechanical - Using (or as if using) mechanisms or tools or devices

These definitions point out that a valve is a device that regulates the flow of gas or fluids. A mechanical device Mechanism that works on a mechanical principles. While a mechanism is a Device that performs some function. These all fit an AAV. Even Studor and Oatly call them devices, so if we take what Illinois code says d) Mechanical Vents. Mechanical devices shall not be installed in lieu of vent piping. This is how they are not allowed in Illinois. Again as I stated, Illinois does not see it fit to name them by name but just by the class the fall under which "IS" a Mechanical Device.

To say they are not mechanical in nature (moving parts) is insane. Unless they work by magic some how. I would like to see you point out where in the Illinois code that allows these AAVs. I have pointed to the part of the code that any Illinois plumbing inspector will point to you to tell you they are not allowed. Plumbers in Illinois can not install these on your word. We have to go on the way the Illinois plumbing code is written and interpreted by the plumbing inspectors.

I just left a job where a gentleman wants to move his kitchen sink to a different part of the kitchen, and he wanted to do it after he had all the walls redone. I informed him we need to get in before the walls are redone so we can properly vent the system. He understood and it doesn't matter that I have to open a couple walls to properly plumb in his new kitchen area and laundry area. The walls are going to get redone after we do the needed plumbing. I said this before there should be no reason a drainage system is not properly trapped and vented in Illinois unless some one with no knowledge of the plumbing code did the install.

Originally Posted by Ron Hasil

Even Studor and Oatly call them devices, so if we take what Illinois code says d) Mechanical Vents. Mechanical devices shall not be installed in lieu of vent piping.

A #2 pencil is a "device", and it "moves". Thus it too is a "mechanical device"?

A mechanical pencil is a mechanical pencil and you are the motor and mechanism used to operate this mechanical pencil. It could not be a mechanical pencil and move the lead down on its own unless you turn it. The water flowing down the pipe is basically the hydraulics used to operate the moving components in the studor vent. You have low air pressure on the top (not enough to push it down) and high pressure underneath sucking the 2 moving components down (ball and spring)

I am not trying to side with either of you but I do believe in the use of the vents in certain circumstances. I also believe the vents are mechanical devises.

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

In a sense studer vents are mechanical as in a spring, a ball and the mechanics operating it is the water going down the drain line pulling it down.

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

The water flowing down the pipe is basically the hydraulics used to operate the moving components in the studor vent. You have low air pressure on the top (not enough to push it down) and high pressure underneath sucking the 2 moving components down (ball and spring)

Ted,

Ever taken a Studor vent apart and looked at what was inside, how it was made, and 'how it operates'?

Just curious.

Come on, Jerry, you already know the answer to that. hehe.


Ron: Yeah, until recently we used to be able to do the same, but even reenforcing the studs we're not allowed to go through a stud with anything bigger than 1.25" pipe, and even then only on non-load-bearing walls.

Oh dear

A couple of too smart for themselves type guys.

Yes Jerry I know what the inside of the vent looks like

I was making a point. No ball and spring. It might as well be. That was the point. Sorry I did not get into the exactness and physics end of it.

Now that is not being very nice just cause I was making a point. I like their use and would and have used them many times in the past but as all things there is a place for them.

Point is smart a%%es.

To MR Jerry

It is a mechanical device as an entire working system!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To Joshua

And you went along with him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Whats up boys. Having to much fun by yourselves and did not want anything added into the twist

And to think I agreed with the both of you

To technical boys makes a horrible soup.

Now me

I probably would have said something like what are you stupid? Have you never seen the inside of the valve you are talking about.

Instead it was

Ted

Have you ever taken one apart

And Joshua

Yuk Yuk, you know the answer to that Jerry

Seriously boys. Be nice and get a grip

Gees. You actually hurt my feelings. Now I feel bad.

Not!!!!!!! I live in the real world.

A couple of ignorant folks trying to make a nice guy like me feel bad and act like they are actually smarter than the next guy ( you and I know that that isn't true) You are just a couple other guys on the post, thats all. Get a grip boys. Apologize and move on. That was quite ignorant of the both of you.

Oh yeah, yuk, yuk, have a nice day.

Good grief!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Forgive me, Ted, if I misunderstood the point you were trying to make. By saying there's a ball and spring inside an AAV you were trying to make the point that there is no ball and spring??

And it's good to know you'd take the high road, and directly call someone stupid. heh.

My message to Jerry, and everybody on every message board has been guilty of this one time or another, is that the response is somewhat off-topic and doesn't further the conversation any. We know that an AAV only has a rubber diaphram inside, so we already know that if you're saying there's a ball and spring that you've not seen the insides of it. (But then, your point is that there is no ball and spring, so I guess I'm confused then.)

Now, inside the smaller "Redi-Vent" by Studor, there is a ball, but still no spring.


Since the valve in an AAV is moved by air would that make it pnuematic?

I think the confusion is that most places don't call an AAV a "mechanical vent," probably because the code prohibits them, but allows AAV's.

Regardless though if they say it's prohibited then it's prohibited. What do I care though, I live in NC.

Originally Posted by Joshua Hardesty

Forgive me, Ted, if I misunderstood the point you were trying to make. By saying there's a ball and spring inside an AAV you were trying to make the point that there is no ball and spring??

Joshua,

Ted still has me scratching my head over that one ...

I think the confusion is that most places don't call an AAV a "mechanical vent," probably because the code prohibits them, but allows AAV's.

Regardless though if they say it's prohibited then it's prohibited.

That is the point that I was trying to make as well.

If the AHJ does not allow it, they do not allow it.

However, just because they want to call it a "mechanical vent" does not make it a "mechanical vent" (i.e., 'do not make it correct' any more than those Texas AHJ who said 'no sediment trap is required' were correct)

Sure, the AHJ is allowed to do what they want, they are the AHJ. And, when they decide to allow AAVs, all they have to do is change their mind and say 'You know, an AAV really is not a "mechanical vent", so they are therefore *NOW allowed*.'

Dang, that sure is simple.

See the thing I can not understand is how is a AAv not a mechanical device? It has a moving part, this part that moves by the means of pressure deferential. It is a part that can and will fail.

I talked to a state inspector, he pointed out the older version of Illinois plumbing code use to just say Mechanical vents are not allowed. The revised code says Mechanical Vents. Mechanical devices are not allowed in lieu of vent piping. The mechanical device part was added to cover AAVs and any other device that may eventually come to being. He said the change was made due to the manufactures are saying the AAV is not a mechanical vent, but they do call it a mechanical device.

FWIW in California AAVs are approved/disapproved on a case-by-case submission to the local AHJ and in my immediate area I've never seen AAVs rejected, yet. All the building officials I know base their approval on need rather than want and they do not consider them to be mechanical vents (another animal) and they work just fine as does "wet venting" when done properly. Anyone want go there?

Originally Posted by Ron Hasil

It has a moving part, this part that moves by the means of pressure deferential. It is a part that can and will fail.

You keep saying that part over and over again, yet a plumbing vent pipe, no moving part, CAN FAIL too.

Yes, they can become clogged, blocked, etc., from numerous causes.

The result of a failed AAV and a clogged, blocked, etc., vent pipe is the same. BOTH CAN BE CORRECTED - in fact, the AAV can be corrected more easily much of the time.

Originally Posted by Ron Hasil

See the thing I can not understand is how is a AAv not a mechanical device? It has a moving part, this part that moves by the means of pressure deferential.

Ron,

By the way ...

I can lay a round #2 pencil on my plan review table, blow air across it, and the #2 pencil will move around on the table.

Does that, then, make that #2 pencil a "mechanical pencil"? After all, it is moving based on "pressure differential", just like the Studor vent.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

You keep saying that part over and over again, yet a plumbing vent pipe, no moving part, CAN FAIL too.

Yes, they can become clogged, blocked, etc., from numerous causes.

The result of a failed AAV and a clogged, blocked, etc., vent pipe is the same. BOTH CAN BE CORRECTED - in fact, the AAV can be corrected more easily much of the time.

I have seen more failed AAV's (installed by a handyman) than I seen clogged vent piping systems. The calls I got where people complaining about a clogged sink. First time I ran into it I didn't see that it was installed. I rodded the line several times, filled the sink and it still wouldn't drain. Then the AAV caught my eye when I was thinking of installing a clean out on the vent pipe to do the rodding from so I could run water while I was rodding. I removed the AAV and BAM the sink drained like Niagara Falls. I explained to that home owner the problems with these mechanical vents ( I was nor aware they where not called that at the time it was a Studor valve) and it should be re-piped properly. Only cost her $525 bucks in all including the time it took me to rod the line in the first place. From that day on I check for AAVs and mechanical vents take them off first to make sure they where working before I try to rod a line, 90% of the time they have failed. Everyone of them I run into I show the homeowners the state code as well as their local cod and even encourage them to call the local or state plumbing inspectors. I am not out to make a fast buck, I am there to provide safe plumbing for the public.

Only time I seen a clogged vent piping system is a sink line vent that leads to the roof, which was clogged with a bird and its nest that got sucked in, but it is very uncommon. Illinois code covers the proper ways to install venting pipe and sizes it in such a way it is very unlikely to clog.

One of the Webster definitions for "mechanical" states:

5: caused by, resulting from, or relating to a process that involves a purely physical as opposed to a chemical or biological change or process


So I suppose, the process of the vent opening is caused by the physical action of the vacuum.


BUT!!! If I trained a spider monkey to sit under my sink and open the valve each time it drained, would that then be a biological process and no longer be a mechanical vent?


Also Jerry, if you wanted to sell yourself as a pneumatic pencil mover I could box you and your table and call you a mechanism. heh.

Originally Posted by Joshua Hardesty

One of the Webster definitions for "mechanical" states:

5: caused by, resulting from, or relating to a process that involves a purely physical as opposed to a chemical or biological change or process

Also Jerry, if you wanted to sell yourself as a pneumatic pencil mover I could box you and your table and call you a mechanism. heh.

Joshua,

No, because I am "biological". Dang!

Wait ... am I "biological"?

Originally Posted by Bob Lynett

Anyone ever see this before type of configuration before? Not to mention it is supported with string and rope.

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

I agree with being an S-trap, but it does raise a question in my mind. How long does the top section of the S have to be before it becomes a P-trap? Then the vent can be some distance (don't have chart infront of me) from the trap.

Originally Posted by Matthew Skowron

No mater how long the riser or how far the trap to the 90 down with out a vent it is still an S-trap.

Anyone remember this thread?

http://www.pinellascounty.org/build/PDF/vlfd.pdf

Slow times let the mind wander. Found this regarding the trap question at the begining of the thread. Looks like it could be made into a "Vertical leg waste fixture drain", wada ya think?

Also found it in the "Code Check Plumbing" Fig. 32.

We keep missing the point! The correction of the trap/vent configuration, at the begining of the thread, may have been correctable by making the sec. "A" at least 8" in length. No one mentioned "Vertical Leg Waste Fixture Drain", all of us were too busy with S-trap configuration.

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

We keep missing the point! The correction of the trap/vent configuration, at the begining of the thread, may have been correctable by making the sec. "A" at least 8" in length. No one mentioned "Vertical Leg Waste Fixture Drain", all of us were too busy with S-trap configuration.

Vern,

Not sure where you got that drawing, but the IRC does not allow that.

Some of the older model codes, but the IRC does not.

I was not anywhere near being correct for that, and, if corrected now, that is not allowed anyway. Means it is not allowed, and not correctable in the sense you were thinking.

Jerry, the picture is in the "Code Check Plumbing" page 12. Found this when I Googled "Vertical Leg Waste Fixture Drain", http://www.pinellascounty.org/build/PDF/vlfd.pdf

I think thats in your state?

Vern,

Yes, Pinellas County is in Florida, and that configuration is no longer allowed.

Believe it or not, that was allowed in Florida until the 2007 Florida Building Code, Residential, even though it had been taken out of the IRC way back when.

This is, in effect, an 'S' trap, although a modified S trap.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Vern,

Yes, Pinellas County is in Florida, and that configuration is no longer allowed.

Believe it or not, that was allowed in Florida until the 2007 Florida Building Code, Residential, even though it had been taken out of the IRC way back when.

This is, in effect, an 'S' trap, although a modified S trap.

Looks like "way back when" was sometime after 2004? IRC code listed in Code Check is 3105.3 .

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

Looks like "way back when" was sometime after 2004? IRC code listed in Code Check is 3105.3 .

Vern,

I looked and it is not in the IRC (2006).

I looked back and it WAS in the 2003 IRC, but is not in the 2006.

Which means, as I said, it is not correctable in the manner in which you are thinking, it must be corrected to a proper trap.

So if it had been installed or corrected prior to 2006, it would not be written up. Just one more of the code issues (we not being CEO's) have to know better than the AHJ!

Thanks for researching this Jerry.

Out here in CA, we dont have wet vents; every fixture needs a vent.
This would be wrong because:
- no vent
- trap arm too short
- s-trap

If wet venting is allowed, this would still be wrong.
The 2x3 combo would have to turned horizontally because it carries air and water. The tail piece would have to be lowered (if permitted) or the waste line would need to be higher for that to happen(bring it up with a 45 degree offset somwhere down stream).

Okay, I know I'll get some response on this comment!

Certain S-traps are allowed even in the newest codes!

Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle

Okay, I know I'll get some response on this comment!

Certain S-traps are allowed even in the newest codes!

Huh?

From the 2006 IRC. (underlining is mine)

- P3201.5 Prohibited trap designs.

The following types of traps are prohibited:
- - 1. Bell traps.
- - 2. Separate fixture traps with interior partitions, except those lavatory traps made of plastic, stainless steel or other corrosion-resistant material.
- - 3. “S” traps.
- - 4. Drum traps.

- - 5. Trap designs with moving parts.

Wayne, there are no ifs, no ands, no buts in there, just a plain and simple "The following ... traps are prohibited: "3. "S" traps."

Toilets! They are S-traps

Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle

Toilets! They are S-traps

Nope, they are "integral" traps of a special design.

An 'S' trap has an inlet from the top, goes down and around the trap, up and around the top of the weir, then the outlet goes down.

Toilets have an inlet from the bottom, goes up and around the top of the weir, the outlet goes down.

Thus, when the water is siphoned out through the trap, the water level drops to the top of the inlet, gulps air and stops the siphon action, then the bowl and trap fill back up with water to the "waterline", which is the level of the trap weir.

Completely different than an 'S' trap.

Nope! S-Traps!

Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle

Nope! S-Traps!

.

Nope, you are wrong on that one.

If anything, it is an inverted 'U' trap, with both the inlet and the outlet at the bottom.

I don't know, I'd consider it an S-trap with a trap primer. Of course, the purpose of the toilet IS to siphon out.

You see the inlet of the trap on the bottom. I see it as a typical S-trap, except the outlet of the trap is 2" approx., and the inlet is about 16" across -- the top of the toilet.