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  1. #1
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    Default Top Out Problems

    This is the first time I have seen the plumber use this type of fittings for a waste and overflow on an upstairs tub. Also the T&P drain terminates below the brick ledge of the house without being turned down and is very apperant to have negative fall. Also the two vents on each side of the window are not 10' from the window. 0613081045a.jpg

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    Dylan Whitehead

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Top Out Problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Dylan Whitehead View Post
    This is the first time I have seen the plumber use this type of fittings for a waste and overflow on an upstairs tub.
    Those are slip fittings are not allowed unless they will be accessible. That will not be accessible after the hole in the floor is sealed, much less after the wall is closed up.

    You also caught where the plumber whacked out the top chord of that floor truss, right. In two place in that photo, so there may be other locations too.

    Also the T&P drain terminates below the brick ledge of the house without being turned down and is very apperant to have negative fall.
    That does not meet these requirements, does it?

    From the 2006 IRC. (underlining is mine)
    - P2803.6.1 Requirements for discharge pipe.
    The discharge piping serving a pressure-relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination valve shall:
    - - 1. Not be directly connected to the drainage system.
    - - 2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater.
    - - 3. Not be smaller than the diameter of the outlet of the valve served and shall discharge full size to the air gap.
    - - 4. Serve a single relief device and shall not connect to piping serving any other relief device or equipment.
    - - 5. Discharge to the floor, to an indirect waste receptor or to the outdoors. Where discharging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area.
    - - 6. Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage.
    - - 7. Discharge to a termination point that is readily observable by the building occupants.
    - - 8. Not be trapped.
    - - 9. Be installed to flow by gravity.
    - - 10. Not terminate more than 6 inches (152 mm) above the floor or waste receptor.
    - - 11. Not have a threaded connection at the end of the piping.
    - - 12. Not have valves or tee fittings.
    - - 13. Be constructed of those materials listed in Section P2904.5 or materials tested, rated and approved for such use in accordance with ASME A112.4.1.

    Maybe it does meet 2. and 5.????


    Also the two vents on each side of the window are not 10' from the window.
    Nope, they are not. Neither are they 2 feet above it.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Top Out Problems

    The plumbers cut quit a bit of the trusses. I am going to notify the builder of the situation. Unfortunately the T&P doesn't discharge into a receptacle, I am going to request that it be corrected. What about the fact that they have two 1/8th bends on the vertical side of the p-trap and then a rubber adapter going to the waste and overflow?

    Dylan Whitehead

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    Default Re: Top Out Problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Dylan Whitehead View Post
    the T&P doesn't discharge into a receptacle,
    Where is the water heater located and where does it discharge to?

    What about the fact that they have two 1/8th bends on the vertical side of the p-trap and then a rubber adapter going to the waste and overflow?
    Looks okay, other than the fact that the plumbers cut that floor truss web completely out to make their job easier (without regard to what it did to anything else/anyone else).

    Then it goes into a combination wye-1/8 bend into the main line, also not a problem ... as long as all slopes are proper and all PVC is supported every 4 feet.

    Also, if there is a bend in the pipe (let's use a 1/4 bend) you measure along the pipe to the 1/4 bend, then along the pipe to the next support, not diagonally from one support to another support (many plumbers try to get away with that).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Top Out Problems

    You may want to check that the long sweep as a slight up tilt to it. I've seen them too many times with a down pitch.
    The trusses in this picture once again make me wonder if anyone from the carpenters has ever/never talked with the plumbers union training school.

    www.aic-chicago.com
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  6. #6
    Tony Watson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Top Out Problems

    Does the window open?


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Top Out Problems

    Tony,

    Don't forget the soffit vents which will be there.

    From the 2006 IRC (but it's been this way for years). (underlining is mine)

    - P3103.5 Location of vent terminal. An open vent terminal from a drainage system shall not be located less than 4 feet (1219 mm) directly beneath any door, openable window, or other air intake opening of the building or of an adjacent building, nor shall any such vent terminal be within 10 feet (3048 mm) horizontally of such an opening unless it is at least 2 feet (610 mm) above the top of such opening.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  8. #8
    Tony Watson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Top Out Problems

    Jerry

    Good call, wasn't thinking big picture.
    Thanks, T.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Top Out Problems

    Here are a few more pics that were taken of the same house. The third pic is of the termination of the T&P Drain. The water heater is in the garage about 10' - 15' from the outside wall.

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    Dylan Whitehead

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Top Out Problems

    The T&P discharge line should turn down, yet bet 6" above *final grade* (which includes the sod) - looks like it is not even 6" above existing rough grade, much less with an elbow on it turning it down.

    Looks like that stair winder is not a legal winder, and, even if it is, winders in a straight stair are not allowed (but are allowed, decipher that one - I can defend both 'allowed' and 'not allowed' with code sections, so I *chose* to go with the 'not allowed' one as it is more restrictive - which is also a code requirement ... the most restrictive shall apply ) it also creates an unsafe condition (allowed or not) with no properly sized landing as required by the code.

    But ... I digressed from "Looks like that stair winder is not a legal winder," no minimum 6" dimension on the narrow end (not from that angle in that photo anyway).

    To complicate that matter with the winder, the landing from the door to the second winder down is not a proper landing for the door, as required by code.

    That set-up is just a trip and fall accident waiting to happen.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Top Out Problems

    Thanks for pointing that out Jerry, the landings, I missed that. One of the other things that I didn't like about the stairs is that it doesn't have any safeguards, temp. railing, and the bottom stairs terminate about 30" from front door.

    Dylan Whitehead

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Top Out Problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Dylan Whitehead View Post
    and the bottom stairs terminate about 30" from front door.
    Minimum is 36" landing depth in the direction of travel, or wider if the stairs is wider than 36" ... the depth of the landing (in the direction of travel) shall be the same as the width of the stairs, except for straight stairs (which that is not) and then the landing need not exceed 48" in depth (in the direction of travel).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Top Out Problems

    Jerry

    Does that mean when they open the front door they must maintain the 36" or does the swing of the door make a differance?

    Dylan Whitehead

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Top Out Problems

    Dylan,

    Interior and exterior door landings are treated differently.

    From the 2006 IRC. (underlining is mine)
    - R311.4.3 Landings at doors.
    There shall be a floor or landing on each side of each exterior door. The floor or landing at the exterior door shall not be more than 1.5 inches (38 mm) lower than the top of the threshold. The landing shall be permitted to have a slope not to exceed 0.25 unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (2-percent).

    - - - Exceptions:
    - - - - 1. Where a stairway of two or fewer risers is located on the exterior side of a door, other than the required exit door, a landing is not required for the exterior side of the door provided the door, other than an exterior storm or screen door does not swing over the stairway.
    - - - - 2. The exterior landing at an exterior doorway shall not be more than 7
    3/4 inches (196 mm) below the top of the threshold, provided the door, other than an exterior storm or screen door does not swing over the landing.
    - - - - 3. The height of floors at exterior doors other than the exit door required by Section R311.4.1 shall not be more than 7
    3/4 inches (186 mm) lower than the top of the threshold.
    - - The width of each landing shall not be less than the door served. Every landing shall have a minimum dimension of 36 inches (914 mm) measured in the direction of travel. (Jerry's note: The width of the landing shall be as wide as the door, a 36" door needs a 36" wide landing, a 72" wide door requires a 72" wide landing, see exceptions. The depth of the landing shall not be less than 36". I.e., the smallest landing would be 36" by 36", see exceptions.)

    For interior doors use this:

    - R311.5.4 Landings for stairways.
    There shall be a floor or landing at the top and bottom of each stairway.

    - - - Exception:
    A floor or landing is not required at the top of an interior flight of stairs, including stairs in an enclosed garage, provided a door does not swing over the stairs.
    - - A flight of stairs shall not have a vertical rise larger than 12 feet (3658 mm) between floor levels or landings.
    - - The width of each landing shall not be less than the width of the stairway served. Every landing shall have a minimum dimension of 36 inches (914 mm) measured in the direction of travel.

    Keep in mind that a "stairway" may consist of 1 (or more risers), i.e, you could have a floor (serving as the landing), a riser, then another floor (serving as the landing).



    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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