Results 1 to 29 of 29
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia
    Posts
    1,078

    Default Exposed CSST full length of wall

    1 year warranty inspection this morning. It looks like the house was built for an electric dryer but the buyers wanted gas. Someone punched a hole in the laundry room ceiling, ran CSST down the wall, secured the CSST to the cabinet and drywall. When the CSST reached the floor, installed a rigid elbow and shutoff valve, then back to CSST behind the dryer.

    Since CSST is so fragile, it seems that there is probably some requirement that it not be exposed on the interior. Did not find anything in Code Check under plumbing that helped. Any pointers?

    Similar Threads:
    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    Inspection Referral SOC
    "The Code is not a peak to reach but a foundation to build from."

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
    Posts
    3,177

    Default Re: Exposed CSST full length of wall

    I don't think CSST is "that fragile", but it's clearly an amateur job. And, I don't see no drip leg, neither. I would call for a professional to come in and do it right.


  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,245

    Default Re: Exposed CSST full length of wall

    While being butt ugly and having several 'questionable' routing practices shown in the photo, I don't see anything in the manufacturer's installation instructions 'prohibiting' "exposed work".

    In fact, you can even have "exposed work" on a roof, and that is specifically addressed, so I would suspect that "exposed work" inside would also be allowed.

    If the homeowner had it installed, I would just advise them that, when they go to sell, it may well come up, and that if they had the installed come back and fish it down the inside of the wall, the top and bottom could be enclosed, making that future problem not be a future problem.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Spring City/Surrounding Philadelphia area
    Posts
    3,473

    Default Re: Exposed CSST full length of wall

    John, my Code Check Plumbing book says clothes dryers are an exception for sediment traps on the gas line along with ranges, gas lights, and gas grills.

    IRC 2419.4

    According to this, it should be OK w/o the drip leg/sediment trap.


  5. #5

    Default Re: Exposed CSST full length of wall

    John, my Code Check Plumbing book says clothes dryers are an exception for sediment traps on the gas line along with ranges, gas lights, and gas grills.

    IRC 2419.4

    According to this, it should be OK w/o the drip leg/sediment trap.
    I agree with Nick that it is allowed to be installed without the trap. Under the commentary that Jerry posted a while back, they recommend a sediment trap, but do not require one.


  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    1,828

    Default Re: Exposed CSST full length of wall

    It should however be protected from damage. If that is in an area where large items are stored or moved around a puncture is possible.


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Memphis TN.
    Posts
    4,311

    Default Re: Exposed CSST full length of wall

    .
    Surely those Conduit Straps Cannot be Approved for this Application.

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    Attached Files Attached Files
    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,245

    Default Re: Exposed CSST full length of wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    .
    Surely those Conduit Straps Cannot be Approved for this Application.
    Actually, they are.

    From the 2008 Gastite Design and Installation manual. (underlining is mine)

    f) Supporting CSST - Tubing shall be supported in a workmanlike manner with pipe straps, bands or hangers suitable for the size and weight of the tubing, at intervals not to exceed those shown in Table 4-2. A proper support is one which is designed as a pipe hanger, does not damage the tubing during installation, and provides full support. “J” Hooks may not be used as they may damage the CSST. Zip Ties/Cable Ties are not to be used as a primary support but may be used to organize or bundle CSST. See Table 4-5 for supporting CSST in a rooftop application.

    That is their only requirement "suitable for the size and weight", I called them years ago and they said sure, EMT straps a okay, although at the time they said they "prefer two hole EMT straps over the one hole EMT straps".

    If you have the 2008 manual, look at Fig 4-24 (page 49), you will see what looks like 1 one hole EMT strap and 1 two hole EMT strap securing the ends of the CSST.


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Memphis TN.
    Posts
    4,311

    Default Re: Exposed CSST full length of wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Actually, they are.

    From the 2008 Gastite Design and Installation manual. (underlining is mine)

    f) Supporting CSST - Tubing shall be supported in a workmanlike manner with pipe straps, bands or hangers suitable for the size and weight of the tubing,

    .
    THANKS.


    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    2,797

    Default Re: Exposed CSST full length of wall

    What are the requirements in this installation, l cant find much in the Wardflex manual.

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    Michael Thomas
    Paragon Property Services Inc., Chicago IL
    http://paragoninspects.com

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    richmond b.c
    Posts
    10

    Default Re: Exposed CSST full length of wall

    how about the duct that is used ?
    isn't it supposed to be ridge ?


  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
    Posts
    3,177

    Default Re: Exposed CSST full length of wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Thomas View Post
    What are the requirements in this installation, l cant find much in the Wardflex manual.
    What is going on with that TPR drain? Something else is draining into it? Not allowed, of course.
    As for the CSST, I think it's ok, although I'd prefer that the hard pipe come down and a short flex connector or short csst be used.
    Drip leg?

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
    www.ArnoldHomeInspections.com

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Spring City/Surrounding Philadelphia area
    Posts
    3,473

    Default Re: Exposed CSST full length of wall

    WTF??? Were you inspecting a submarine Michael .


  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
    Posts
    3,177

    Default Re: Exposed CSST full length of wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Chiu View Post
    how about the duct that is used ?
    isn't it supposed to be ridge ?
    It took me a while, but now I understand, you mean "rigid".
    There are listed flex connectors for connecting the dryer to proper smooth wall rigid metal duct.

    Last edited by John Arnold; 01-31-2009 at 06:21 AM. Reason: no biggie
    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
    www.ArnoldHomeInspections.com

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    richmond b.c
    Posts
    10

    Default Re: Exposed CSST full length of wall

    Quote Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
    It took me a while, but now I understand, you mean "rigid".
    There are listed flex connectors for connecting the dryer to proper smooth wall rigid metal duct.
    Ahh ok cause i thought they say for gas dryers they need to be rigid ducts. cause the high temp exhaust


  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Charlotte NC
    Posts
    2,303

    Default Re: Exposed CSST full length of wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    WTF??? Were you inspecting a submarine Michael .
    That is a thermal expansion device. Should not be plumbed into the T&P as you said.

    Is that PVC?


  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    2,797

    Default Re: Exposed CSST full length of wall

    I was asking about the CSST.

    Michael Thomas
    Paragon Property Services Inc., Chicago IL
    http://paragoninspects.com

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Charlotte NC
    Posts
    2,303

    Default Re: Exposed CSST full length of wall

    Sorry Michael, I don't see any problem with CSST that is in the pic. One of the things to keep in mind is to look for a bonding wire to the gass line.


  19. #19
    R Gann's Avatar
    R Gann Guest

    Default Re: Exposed CSST full length of wall

    Kevin, 2006 IRC M1502.4, reference for using flexible duct on a clothes dryer. Must be listed and labeled in accordance with UL 2158A.


  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,245

    Default Re: Exposed CSST full length of wall

    Where'd the "flexible clothes dryer duct" come from? I don't see any in any of those photos.

    In one photo (in the original post) I see a non-approved clothes dryer "transition duct", i.e., clothes dryer connector, used from the clothes dryer to the wall.

    Did I miss something somewhere in those photos?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,245

    Default Re: Exposed CSST full length of wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Thomas View Post
    What are the requirements in this installation, l cant find much in the Wardflex manual.

    Michael,

    All I see in the Wardflex manual is:
    - Vertical drops must be supported between floors.
    - Sediment traps, was one installed?

    Not much there regarding that exposed vertical run.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  22. #22
    Timothy M. Barr's Avatar
    Timothy M. Barr Guest

    Default Re: Exposed CSST full length of wall

    I had an licensed electrician tell me last night that this type of plumbing has to have ground wire ran to the panel box. Something about lighting striking the house. Any body hear such a thing?


  23. #23
    R Gann's Avatar
    R Gann Guest

    Default Re: Exposed CSST full length of wall

    4.10 electrical bonding/grounding
    Direct bonding of DIAMONDBACKTM CSST is required for all gas piping systems incorporating DIAMONDBACKTM CSST whether or not the connected gas equipment is electrically powered. This requirement is provided as part of the manufacturer’s instruction for single-family and multi-family buildings. Bonding for commercial applications should be designed by engineers knowledgeable in electrical system design and the local electrical code.
    DIAMONDBACK
    TM CSST installed inside or attached to a building or structure shall be electrically continuous and direct bonded to an effective ground-fault current path. The gas piping system shall be considered to be direct bonded when installed in accordance with the following:
    • The piping is permanently and directly connected to the electrical service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the electrical service, the grounding electrode conductor (where of sufficient size) or to one or more of the grounding electrodes used.
    • A single bond shall be made at or near the service entrance of the structure or the gas meter of each individual housing unit within a multi-family structure.
    • The bonding conductor shall be 6 AWG copper wire.
    • Bonding jumpers shall be attached in an approved manner in accordance with NEC-2005 Article 250.70 and attachment bonding point for the bonding jumper shall be accessible.
    • This bond is in addition to any other bonding requirements as specified by local codes.
    DIAMONDBACKTM



  24. #24
    Timothy M. Barr's Avatar
    Timothy M. Barr Guest

    Default Re: Exposed CSST full length of wall

    Thank you Something I can look for doing a HI


  25. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
    Posts
    3,177

    Default Re: Exposed CSST full length of wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy M. Barr View Post
    Thank you Something I can look for doing a HI
    There was a class action lawsuit about it.

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
    www.ArnoldHomeInspections.com

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Charlotte NC
    Posts
    2,303

    Default Re: Exposed CSST full length of wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy M. Barr View Post
    I had an licensed electrician tell me last night that this type of plumbing has to have ground wire ran to the panel box. Something about lighting striking the house. Any body hear such a thing?
    Oh, somewhere around post #18...


  27. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Vancouver - Canada
    Posts
    221

    Default Re: Exposed CSST full length of wall

    Quote Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
    What is going on with that TPR drain? Something else is draining into it? Not allowed
    looks like it might be a trap-primer line just to keep the trap from evaporating


  28. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,245

    Default Re: Exposed CSST full length of wall

    Quote Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
    What is going on with that TPR drain? Something else is draining into it? Not allowed
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Klampfer View Post
    looks like it might be a trap-primer line just to keep the trap from evaporating
    Regardless of *what* is connected into the T&P discharge drain line, as John stated, not allowed.

    If that is a trap primer, it would need to drain into the floor drain separately from the T&P relief valve discharge drain line.

    If from a pressure relief valve for thermal expansion, that also would need to drain into the floor drain (or outside, depending on where it goes out of range of the photo) separately from the T&P relief valve discharge drain line.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  29. #29
    Fred Warner's Avatar
    Fred Warner Guest

    Default Re: Exposed CSST full length of wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy M. Barr View Post
    I had an licensed electrician tell me last night that this type of plumbing has to have ground wire ran to the panel box. Something about lighting striking the house. Any body hear such a thing?
    This is how we handle it in New York State: (Fuel Gas Code excerpts)


    310.2 Gas pipe bonding ‑ systems that contain CSST. A gas piping system that contains any corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) shall be electrically continuous and shall be bonded to the electrical service grounding electrode system at the point where the gas service enters the building or structure. No portion of the gas piping system shall be used as or considered to be a grounding electrode or a grounding electrode conductor. CSST shall be installed and bonded in accordance with this section 310.2, and the stricter of: (a) the requirements set forth in the CSST manufacturer’s installation instructions, or (b) the requirements set forth in Sections 310.2.1, 310.2.2, 310.2.3, and 404.5 of this code.

    “310.2.1 Bonding jumper. Where the electric service for the individual installation is 200 amperes or less, the bonding jumper shall not be smaller than 6 AWG copper wire or 4 AWG aluminum or copper-clad aluminum wire, and shall be permanently connected to the grounding electrode system. Where the electric service for the individual installation is more than 200 amperes, the bonding jumper size shall be determined in accordance with Table 250.66 and Sections 250.66(A) through 250.66(C) of NFPA 70-2005, and shall be permanently connected to the grounding electrode system.

    310.2.2 Bonding clamp. The bonding jumper shall be connected to the gas piping system with a bonding clamp that is listed for the material of the bonding jumper and for the material of the component of the gas piping system to which the bonding clamp is attached. The bonding clamp shall be attached to the gas piping system at a point which is inside the building or structure in which the gas piping is installed, on the downstream side of the gas meter or regulator, in an unconcealed and readily accessible space, and as close as practicable to the point where the gas service enters the building or structure. The bonding clamp shall be attached to a segment of metallic fuel gas pipe which (a) is a component of the gas piping system, (b) is electrically continuous with all CSST components of the gas piping system, (c) is made of steel, wrought-iron, copper (if permitted by Section 403.4.3 of this code), or brass (if permitted by Section 403.4.3 of this code), or aluminum, (d) complies with the applicable provisions of Section 403.4 of this code and with all other applicable provisions of Section 403 of this code, and (e) is not less than 3 inches (76 mm) in length. Neither the CSST nor the brass hexagonal nut on the CSST fitting shall be used as an attachment point for the bonding clamp.

    “310.2.3 Prohibited uses. CSST shall not be supported on or by other electrically conductive systems including copper water pipe, electric power cables, air conditioning and heating ducts, communication cables and structural steel beams. Electrical wiring, including the bonding conductor, shall be supported and secured independently of the CSST so that it does not come in contact with the CSST.”



Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •