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  1. #1
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    Default Kitchen hot water booster

    Has anyone seen this system before? It is not a hot water dispenser (there was one of those right next to this)
    It appears to be a demand type preheater of sorts as it is plumbed in the hot water line to the faucet with a special faucet with an indicator light when the faucet button was pressed. I could not get any function except for the light and eventually got hot water (I assume from the main w/h).
    Any info is appreciated.

    I found this info so far: http://www.eemaxinc.com/images/thermostaticspecs.pdf

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    Last edited by Jim Luttrall; 08-31-2008 at 12:41 AM.
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    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  2. #2
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Kitchen hot water booster

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    Has anyone seen this system before? It is not a hot water dispenser (there was one of those right next to this)
    It appears to be a demand type preheater of sorts as it is plumbed in the hot water line to the faucet with a special faucet with an indicator light when the faucet button was pressed. I could not get any function except for the light and eventually got hot water (I assume from the main w/h).
    Any info is appreciated.

    I found this info so far: http://www.eemaxinc.com/images/thermostaticspecs.pdf
    Just go to the main page Jim

    EEmax Tankless Electric Water Heaters


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Kitchen hot water booster

    Yeah, that is how I got the specific sheet that I posted.

    Ever had any experience with these?

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  4. #4
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Kitchen hot water booster

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    Yeah, that is how I got the specific sheet that I posted.

    Ever had any experience with these?
    Usually they work pretty good. It all depends on the size of the unit. Water is almost instant due to close proximity and can be regulated well. It is electric so you would have notice more than likely at least an 80 amp breaker in the panel.

    I never had much luck with the electric ones with multiple service lacations. The gas are better but then you would not have a gas one under the sink.

    The high amperage is what gets me, 80 to 120 amp breakers needed most of the time.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Kitchen hot water booster

    All the ones I've seen were in construction trailers at the sink in the bathroom. That was the source of hot water for washing up after using the facilities.

    Many I've seen had been abandoned electrically and re-plumbed around so there was no hot water to the sink.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Kitchen hot water booster

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    The high amperage is what gets me, 80 to 120 amp breakers needed most of the time.
    Where do you get that from?

    I'm looking at this page for a single lavatory use ( http://www.eemaxinc.com/images/singleptinstall.pdf ) and see 15 - 40 amps.

    Even this one ( http://www.eemaxinc.com/images/thermoinstall.pdf ) for multiple lavatory use is only 15 - 40 amps.

    "80 to 120 amp"???? Where do you see that?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  7. #7
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Kitchen hot water booster

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Where do you get that from?

    I'm looking at this page for a single lavatory use ( http://www.eemaxinc.com/images/singleptinstall.pdf ) and see 15 - 40 amps.

    Even this one ( http://www.eemaxinc.com/images/thermoinstall.pdf ) for multiple lavatory use is only 15 - 40 amps.

    "80 to 120 amp"???? Where do you see that?
    Sorry Mr Jerry

    I was back on the multiple bath or whole house. Not speaking of just the under counter. Just thinking of past installs and trying to make room for a large breaker to feed them. Just had some floating thoughts as I replied to Jims question and twisted things up a bit .


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Kitchen hot water booster

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    I was back on the multiple bath or whole house. Not speaking of just the under counter.
    Ted,

    Even then ... 80 - 120 amps????

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  9. #9
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Kitchen hot water booster

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Ted,

    Even then ... 80 - 120 amps????
    Yes Mr Jerry relax

    Again crossed wires. Thinking of past old installs. Last one I put in for whole house was 120 amps. Yes, 120 amps. The smallest one at that time for multiple fixrture use was 80 amp. Maybe 5 years ago. Neptune Beach as a matter of fact.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Kitchen hot water booster

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Yes, 120 amps.
    Ted,

    I am relaxed, no crossed wires, etc., however, ...

    28,800 watts? (240 volts times 120 amps)

    You sure about that?

    You may be right, but that's just ... weird.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  11. #11
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Kitchen hot water booster

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Ted,

    I am relaxed, no crossed wires, etc., however, ...

    28,800 watts? (240 volts times 120 amps)

    You sure about that?

    You may be right, but that's just ... weird.
    Absolutely positively positive. These particular ones were from the big orange box. They had gas (had to order those) and they had electric. Anything for multiple fixtures was 80 amp and the ones concidered for whole hoiuse were 120 amps. Wish I could remember the make and model but just a little to long ago. Full remodel on the home (120 amp unit), Full remodel on garage apartment (80 amp unit) The 120 also fed the laundry in the detached garage I built (seperate detached garage from the detached garage apartment)

    Yes, Quite sure.


    I am sure some plumbers would remember them

    Bosch Powerstar AE125 - Electric Tankless Water Heater - Whole House
    Bosch Powerstar AE125 Tankless Water Heater - Bosch Electric Water Heater - Whole House

    Powerstar AE125 Electric Water Heater is CSA or UL approved. It provides endless hot water, substantial space for saving, and reduces cost of electricity. The water in this model can be used at shower, bathtub, and laundry.
    Powerstar AE125 Electric Water Heater Features :
    • 95% efficiency rating - maximum efficiency
    • Solid copper heat exchanger
    • Electronic flow switch
    • �" brass NPT fittings
    • External temperature control knob
    • Activation rates of .6 gallons per minute (AE115) and .8 gpm (AE125)
    • Filter screen on inlet
    • Thermal cut-out for safety
    • No temperature/pressure relief valve necessary (check local codes)
    • Flow sensor to provide a constant output temperature
    Tankless Water Heater AE125 - Technical Specifications Efficiency95%Weight22 lbs.Dimensions15-1/2" H x15-1/4" W x 4-1/2" DWater Fittings3/4" male NPTVolts240 / 208 VKilowatts26.85/20 kWAmps120US: 3x40 amps CAN: 1x120 ampsWire SizeUS: minimum #8 AWG (6 conductors & ground)
    Canada: minimum #2 AWG(2 conductors & ground


  12. #12
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    Mar 2007
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    Orlando, FL
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    Default Re: Kitchen hot water booster

    Yes, the high amps are needed for those electric tankless units.

    The Bosch and the off-shore no name electrics installed around here have those heavy duty connections.

    (2) 40 amp or (3) 40 amp breakers required for those beasts.

    Dom.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Kitchen hot water booster

    Is see some problems with the way those are to be wired:

    From the 2008 NEC (and unchanged from 2005). (underlining and bold are mine)
    - ARTICLE 422 Appliances
    - - II. Installation
    - - - 422.11 Overcurrent Protection.
    - - - - Appliances shall be protected against overcurrent in accordance with 422.11(A) through (G) and 422.10.
    - - - - (F) Electric Heating Appliances Employing Resistance-Type Heating Elements Rated More Than 48 Amperes.
    - - - - - (1) Electric Heating Appliances. Electric heating appliances employing resistance-type heating elements rated more than 48 amperes, other than household appliances with surface heating elements covered by 422.11(B), and commercial-type heating appliances covered by 422.11(D), shall have the heating elements subdivided. Each subdivided load shall not exceed 48 amperes and shall be protected at not more than 60 amperes.
    - - - - - These supplementary overcurrent protective devices shall be (1) factory-installed within or on the heater enclosure or provided as a separate assembly by the heater manufacturer; (2) accessible; and (3) suitable for branch-circuit protection. (Jerry's note: Maybe I am missing it, but I don't see this being fulfilled in that instruction manual.)
    - - - - - The main conductors supplying these overcurrent protective devices shall be considered branch-circuit conductors.
    - - - - - (Jerry's note: (2) not applicable to this discussion.)
    - - - - - (3) Water Heaters and Steam Boilers. Water heaters and steam boilers employing resistance-type immersion electric heating elements contained in an ASME-rated and stamped vessel or listed instantaneous water heaters shall be permitted to be subdivided into circuits not exceeding 120 amperes and protected at not more than 150 amperes.

    - ARTICLE 422 Appliances
    - - III. Disconnecting Means
    - - - 422.30 General.
    - - - - A means shall be provided to disconnect each appliance from all ungrounded conductors in accordance with the following sections of Part III. If an appliance is supplied by more than one source, the disconnecting means shall be grouped and identified.

    What happens when you flip off one set of those three sets of non-interconnected breakers, thinking you have turned off the power to that single appliance?

    Prior to 1968, that last sentence was not there, it required one single disconnecting means, without question.

    In the 1968 NEC, that last sentence regarding "If an appliance is supplied by more than one source, the disconnecting means shall be grouped and identified." was added, and in the 1968 NEC Handbook that was added without any comment on it, same with the 1972 Handbook, the 1975 Handbook, the 1978 Handbook, the 1981 Handbook, the 1984 Handbook, etc.

    The "more than one source" does not mean "three 40 amp double pole breakers", it means *Source A = Panel A; Source B = Battery; Source C = Generator* or "different sources". That water heater shown has "one source", albeit three circuits from that "once source".

    I've never seen a single disconnect made for disconnecting one single appliance from "all ungrounded conductors" of three different supply circuits. Has anyone seen a disconnect made for that?

    All I can come up with it as panel with those three 40 amp double pole breakers in it and which has a "panel main" which in turn disconnects power to that panel, which in turn disconnect that single appliance from "all ungrounded conductors" as required.

    Corey, have you seen a disconnect made for something like that?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  14. #14
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Kitchen hot water booster

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Is see some problems with the way those are to be wired:

    From the 2008 NEC (and unchanged from 2005). (underlining and bold are mine)
    - ARTICLE 422 Appliances
    - - II. Installation
    - - - 422.11 Overcurrent Protection.
    - - - - Appliances shall be protected against overcurrent in accordance with 422.11(A) through (G) and 422.10.
    - - - - (F) Electric Heating Appliances Employing Resistance-Type Heating Elements Rated More Than 48 Amperes.
    - - - - - (1) Electric Heating Appliances. Electric heating appliances employing resistance-type heating elements rated more than 48 amperes, other than household appliances with surface heating elements covered by 422.11(B), and commercial-type heating appliances covered by 422.11(D), shall have the heating elements subdivided. Each subdivided load shall not exceed 48 amperes and shall be protected at not more than 60 amperes.
    - - - - - These supplementary overcurrent protective devices shall be (1) factory-installed within or on the heater enclosure or provided as a separate assembly by the heater manufacturer; (2) accessible; and (3) suitable for branch-circuit protection. (Jerry's note: Maybe I am missing it, but I don't see this being fulfilled in that instruction manual.)
    - - - - - The main conductors supplying these overcurrent protective devices shall be considered branch-circuit conductors.
    - - - - - (Jerry's note: (2) not applicable to this discussion.)
    - - - - - (3) Water Heaters and Steam Boilers. Water heaters and steam boilers employing resistance-type immersion electric heating elements contained in an ASME-rated and stamped vessel or listed instantaneous water heaters shall be permitted to be subdivided into circuits not exceeding 120 amperes and protected at not more than 150 amperes.

    - ARTICLE 422 Appliances
    - - III. Disconnecting Means
    - - - 422.30 General.
    - - - - A means shall be provided to disconnect each appliance from all ungrounded conductors in accordance with the following sections of Part III. If an appliance is supplied by more than one source, the disconnecting means shall be grouped and identified.

    What happens when you flip off one set of those three sets of non-interconnected breakers, thinking you have turned off the power to that single appliance?

    Prior to 1968, that last sentence was not there, it required one single disconnecting means, without question.

    In the 1968 NEC, that last sentence regarding "If an appliance is supplied by more than one source, the disconnecting means shall be grouped and identified." was added, and in the 1968 NEC Handbook that was added without any comment on it, same with the 1972 Handbook, the 1975 Handbook, the 1978 Handbook, the 1981 Handbook, the 1984 Handbook, etc.

    The "more than one source" does not mean "three 40 amp double pole breakers", it means *Source A = Panel A; Source B = Battery; Source C = Generator* or "different sources". That water heater shown has "one source", albeit three circuits from that "once source".

    I've never seen a single disconnect made for disconnecting one single appliance from "all ungrounded conductors" of three different supply circuits. Has anyone seen a disconnect made for that?

    All I can come up with it as panel with those three 40 amp double pole breakers in it and which has a "panel main" which in turn disconnects power to that panel, which in turn disconnect that single appliance from "all ungrounded conductors" as required.

    Corey, have you seen a disconnect made for something like that?
    Now you went and did it Jerry. You are going to make me actually think on that one. They must be getting away with it some how.


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