Drain line configuration - InspectionNews

#1 (**permalink**) 07-12-2007, 08:20 PM

........

Jerry Peck · #2 (**permalink**) 07-12-2007, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Eastman

Easy question:
1- do you agree the primary condensate line needs to be sloped into the tail pipe of the sink drain?

Absolutely not! It needs an indirect connection, such as an air gap.

Quote:

Harder question
2- There is two hoses (from what, I have no idea- couldn't find the source) terminating into a tail pipe that is p-trapped and then connected into the main sink drain arm. Any issues with this???????????????? (this sink was in the washer / dryer room)

This looks like some one tried to may some type of air break/air gap. Don't know what the hoses are from - need a proper air gap or air break.

Phillip Stojanik · #3 (**permalink**) 07-12-2007, 09:27 PM

Jerry,

There is indeed an air gap present assuming that the HVAC equipment drain source is located higher (from a gravity perspective) than the flood rim of the sink to which the HVAC's primary drain line is connected.

The second photo? We need to know what the piping is attached to and where it is located in relation to the flood rim of the sink associated with the drain trap in order to render a proper opinion.

Jerry Peck · #4 (**permalink**) 07-12-2007, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Stojanik

Jerry,

There is indeed an air gap present assuming that the HVAC equipment drain source is located higher (from a gravity perspective) than the flood rim of the sink to which the HVAC's primary drain line is connected.

What and where?

Please explain.

(I think I know what you are going to say, and, if I do, you are incorrect. Hopefully, you will say something I am not thinking of.)

Phillip Stojanik · #5 (**permalink**) 07-12-2007, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Eastman

Now I'm cooooooooonfffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuseeeeeeeeed! Are these defect or not and if so, why!!!!!

In the first photo I would say no for reasons I will add to this thread later as time permits. I say no because I think that the air gap Jerry rightfully talks about is indeed present. We shall see if I can convince Jerry of that. He remains doubtful it seems but I remain adamant in this regard. It should be interesting!

In order to do that though, its going to take me some time to atempt to develop a Jerry convincing argument and its already late here tonight. Convicing Jerry Peck to change his mind/opinion is not an easy thing to do in my experience. Subsequently, I will have to get back to everyone later and my work calendar is currently full.

In the second photo I would have to say I don't know because I don't have enough information as yet. In order to say for sure, I would need to know what the observed tubing is connected to before it is connected to the sink drain trap and at what level in relation to the flood rim of the sink in question. Again, this will define whether or not there is actually an air gap present.

Some AHJs do permit a backflow/check valve instead of an air gap but I personally prefer the constant nature of gravity over the mechanical operation of a fallible backflow/check valve.

Jerry,

I will indeed get back to you here in this thread on my reasonsing regarding the presense of an air gap in the piping configuration I presume to exist in Jeff's photo #1.

Such HVAC drain line attachments are very common here locally and are accepted by numerous code authorities. With any luck, I will be able to explain to you why this is so.

Richard Rushing · #6 (**permalink**) 07-12-2007, 11:15 PM

Jeff,

Here is an illustration to help with you with what I know to be acceptable in our local jurisdiction (see attachment):

Your second question:
"Harder question
2- There is two hoses (from what, I have no idea- couldn't find the source) terminating into a tail pipe that is p-trapped and then connected into the main sink drain arm. Any issues with this???????????????? (this sink was in the washer / dryer room)"

Again-- it all goes back to it's relation to the flood rim and what it is connected to...
Richard

Richard Rushing · #7 (**permalink**) 07-12-2007, 11:17 PM

That danm thing didn't attach...
Hereya-go.

Martin lehman · #8 (**permalink**) 07-12-2007, 11:41 PM

It's Ok here too. It's called an air-break, not an air-gap.

Jim Hime · #9 (**permalink**) 07-13-2007, 06:42 AM

On the #2 drain line I was wondering if you had a high-efficiency condensing furnace in the attic. Those units have condensate drain lines as well.

Jerry Peck · #10 (**permalink**) 07-13-2007, 07:17 AM

Okay, y'all

, let's go back to Plumbing 101.

1) That's a "kitchen sink", right? (At least it looks like it to me.)

2) That's an "indirect waste" connection using the "kitchen sink" trap, right? (Looks like it to me.)

3) This is what the IRC says about indirect wastes and prohibited connections (what cannot be connected where, or, in the reverse, what can be connected where).

From the IRC. (underlining is mine)
- P2706.3 Prohibited waste receptors.

Plumbing fixtures that are used for domestic or culinary purposes shall not be used to receive the discharge of indirect waste piping. (Jerry's note: This is what cannot be connected where, i.e., do not connect an indirect waste to a residential sink or lavatory .... except as noted below.)

- - Exceptions: (Jerry's note: This is what can be connected where.)

- - - 1. A kitchen sink trap is acceptable for use as a receptor for a dishwasher. (Jerry's note: That ain't from no dishwasher, it's from an a/c unit. Thus is does not meet this allowable connection. Thus is meets the "Prohibited" section as to what cannot be connected where, i.e., that is not allowed to be connected to the sink trap.)
- - - 2. A laundry tray is acceptable for use as a receptor for a clothes washing machine. (Jerry's note: While this does not apply here, this deserves to be remembered also. The only thing which is allowed to be drained into the laundry tray (think laundry sink) is the clothes washer.)

Okay, now let's go to Plumbing 101, the next semester.

This is an "indirect waste" we are talking about, thus the piping is an "indirect waste pipe". Right?

This is from the IRC.
- INDIRECT WASTE PIPE. A waste pipe that discharges into the drainage system through an air gap into a trap, fixture or receptor.

"through an air gap"

Now, it seems to me ... and I could be wrong again ... that NONE OF THE ABOVE allows that connection, and, in fact, DISALLOWS that connection.

Convince me otherwise.

Richard Rushing · #11 (**permalink**) 07-13-2007, 08:32 AM

Jerry,

As far as I know, these are only allowed in the bathroom sinks, utility room sinks and bathtub drain lines-- NOT THE KITCHEN SINK. The illustration I posted is the bathroom sink

I've never seen one (condensate drain line), or heard of one installed at the kitchen sink.

Rich

Jerry Peck · #12 (**permalink**) 07-13-2007, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Rushing

Jerry,

As far as I know, these are only allowed in the bathroom sinks, utility room sinks and bathtub drain lines-- NOT THE KITCHEN SINK. The illustration I posted is the bathroom sink

I've never seen one (condensate drain line), or heard of one installed at the kitchen sink.

Rich

Read the IRC I posted again.

That bathroom sink is used for "domestic" purposes.

"Plumbing fixtures that are used for domestic or culinary purposes "

Not allowed.

domestic

11 entries found for domestic. The first 10 are listed below.
To select an entry, click on it. For more results, click here. domestic[1,adjective]domestic[2,noun]court of domestic relationsdomestic animaldomestic partnerdomestic prelatedomestic relations courtdomestic sciencedomestic shorthairdomestic violence Main Entry: 1do·mes·tic

Pronunciation: d&-'mes-tik
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French domestique, from Latin domesticus, from domus
1 a : living near or about human habitations b : TAME, DOMESTICATED <the domestic cat>
2 : of, relating to, or originating within a country and especially one's own country <domestic politics> <domestic wines>
3 : of or relating to the household or the family <domestic chores> <domestic happiness>
4 : devoted to home duties and pleasures <leading a quietly domestic life>
5 : INDIGENOUS
- do·mes·ti·cal·ly

/-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb

Bob Mayer · #13 (**permalink**) 07-13-2007, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Eastman

Easy question:
1- do you agree the primary condensate line needs to be sloped into the tail pipe of the sink drain?

Harder question
2- There is two hoses (from what, I have no idea- couldn't find the source) terminating into a tail pipe that is p-trapped and then connected into the main sink drain arm. Any issues with this???????????????? (this sink was in the washer / dryer room)

(Bob, feeling the board has gotten too quiet, goes back to the board's worm storage shelf, retrieves a can, and opens it.)

The left picture also shows two traps on a single trap line.

- BOB

Jerry Peck · #14 (**permalink**) 07-13-2007, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Mayer

The left picture also shows two traps on a single trap line.

- BOB

(slaps forehead)

OH NO!

We've been through this several times before ...

There are two trap arms there, with one trap on each.

Some others may say differently, but they are ... wrong.

Richard Rushing · #15 (**permalink**) 07-13-2007, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

(slaps forehead)

OH NO!

We've been through this several times before ...

There are two trap arms there, with one trap on each.

Some others may say differently, but they are ... wrong.

I agree that that one (door #2) is not double trapped. Looks like two individual traps with two trap arms.

As far as the condensate drain line dropping into the utility sink-- that is allowed here and by every municipal inspector in this 30 city area.-- your mileage may vary.

Rich

Phillip Stojanik · #16 (**permalink**) 07-13-2007, 02:35 PM

Jerry,

For the purpose of my attempted explanation, I will use the picture that Richard posted earlier. If you look at the modified picture below, you will see the result of the sink trap clogging and the A/C system continuing to generate a normal trickle flow of condensation.

The water level in the sink and the piping system will eventually rise to the level of the sink’s flood rim at which point the sink will overflow onto the floor. Because the Evaporator coil is in the attic in this case, the rising water in the drain piping system is never reach to the evaporator pan as it would in an otherwise closed drain piping system. The key here is that the piping system is ultimately open to the atmosphere at both the upper and lower ends of the A/C drain system. This serves to create a functionally effective air gap within the A/C drain piping.

Your stated interpretation of the code language (which I agree with entirely in principle by the way) is a bit too puritan in this particular case because it does not allow for the presence of an air gap that may not be readily visible in the traditional sense yet nonetheless exists from a functional standpoint.

I believe that recognition of this is why so many code authorities around the country do accept this configuration at bathroom lavatories and wash sinks in utility rooms. Even Code Check apparently saw fit to give us a diagram of this very configuration to illustrate how it is to be done.

Now I will go out on the limb here and presume that you will continue to disagree. If so, what you see as the negative functional or contaminatory consequences of having this type of A/C condensate drain configuration?

Richard Rushing · #17 (**permalink**) 07-13-2007, 02:53 PM

Well done illustration (touch-up) Philip...

I'd bet you were a stinker as a young'en with your crayola crayons.

Rich

Jerry Peck · #18 (**permalink**) 07-13-2007, 03:42 PM

Your touch up states "This portion of the piping between the flood rim of the sink and the flood rim of the internal drain pan functions as an effective air break/gap."

First, that is not an "air gap" in any way.

Second, it does not provide an "air break" as pictured.

From the IRC.
- AIR BREAK (DRAINAGE SYSTEM).

An arrangement in which a discharge pipe from a fixture, appliance or device drains indirectly into a receptor below the flood-level rim of the receptor, and above the trap seal.

The "air break" is the distance between where the pipe enters the tailpiece and the trap seal.

However, none of that matters, because (and I am repeating here) ...

This is from the IRC.
- INDIRECT WASTE PIPE. A waste pipe that discharges into the drainage system through an air gap into a trap, fixture or receptor.

"through an air gap"

*And that IS NOT and "air gap".*

Even *if allowed* (and it is not) with an "air gap", that is not an "air gap".

Phillip Stojanik · #19 (**permalink**) 07-13-2007, 04:23 PM

Jerry,

I went out on the limb here and rightfully assumed that we would ultimately have to "agree to disagree".

Because I respect you, I remain interested in your personal perspective on where the code based harm lies with this particular HVAC drain line configuration. While you adequately reiterated your initial position, you offered no additional perspective in answer to my question about the potential harm this drain line configuration offers up.

At the risk of repeating myself, please tell us what you see as the negative functional or contaminatory consequences of having this type of A/C condensate drain configuration?

Jerry Peck · #20 (**permalink**) 07-13-2007, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Stojanik

At the risk of repeating myself, please tell us what you see as the negative functional or contaminatory consequences of having this type of A/C condensate drain configuration?

Phillip,

My apologies for not answering that the first time around.

Contamination from all the bacteria which just loves to grow in a/c condensate lines and what causes them to clog up with 'gunk'.

Do you want that draining into your sink, the one you brush your teeth over, or, in the case of the photo, the one you prepare your food over?

Your modified drawing shows what would happen if there were a back up ... all that 'gunk' would now be up into the sink.

Just too many things in that condensate to want to have it evaporate up into the sink, or to have any bacteria 'climb' up into the sink.

Would you want to drain a highly volatile chemical into there? Something which would evaporate up into the air? No difference, other than 'time' of evaporation.

#21 (**permalink**) 07-13-2007, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Eastman

Easy question:
1- do you agree the primary condensate line needs to be sloped into the tail pipe of the sink drain?

As far as I know ( which is not much ), city permit departments are not allowing condensate lines to drain into the sewer lines, since customer/homeowner did not pay the city for that condensate water, so city doesn't want it in the sewer lines.

Phillip Stojanik · #22 (**permalink**) 07-14-2007, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M Kelekci

As far as I know ( which is not much ), city permit departments are not allowing condensate lines to drain into the sewer lines, since customer/homeowner did not pay the city for that condensate water, so city doesn't want it in the sewer lines.

As a licensed HVAC contractor in the City of Houston I believe you are very much mistaken with the above statement.

#23 (**permalink**) 07-18-2007, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Stojanik

As a licensed HVAC contractor in the City of Houston I believe you are very much mistaken with the above statement.

My bad.

That was what I was told by a builder.

I guess builder was wrong, so was I.

Bob Mayer · #24 (**permalink**) 07-18-2007, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Rushing

I agree that that one (door #2) is not double trapped. Looks like two individual traps with two trap arms.

Rich

I started another thread to discuss this. The evidence I have found so far on the Web is consistant with calling it one trap arm. Look at Definition of a trap arm.

- BOB