I'm curious if any of you have seen what some of these folks who are supposedly winterizing homes are doing to the supply lines at the meter?

Check out the picture below.

How do you handle your inspection when you arrive and find the home winterized?

Many I know just go ahead and turn the water back on at the meter if they have shut it down completely or padlock the valve. This is only after they have went through the house and made sure all the fixtures are off.

They start doing this every year here in the DFW area around November every year and it sure screws up the inspection for sure.

These guys are also I've noticed draining the water heaters but leaving the breaker in the on position in the panel. I always make notation of it on my report that it should have been turned off when the water heater was drained and the person who drained it should be responsible if damages have occured to the water heater.

Also watch those garage doors, the idiots are locking them also with the overhead opener still in operable mode.

rick

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Rick, I have not seen that done before. Why would they put the valve on the meter side? Maybe so they can still water the lawn, and clean?
I will bet this will be much more prevalent for us since there are so many vacant properties. It seems most of my inspections now are on vacant properties, where a year ago vacant properties were a much smaller percentage. I actually prefer the vacant ones except for dealing with the occasional "winterized" property and 2' tall grass out in the country.

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Jim Luttrall
www.MrInspector.net
Allen, Texas 75002

I have done several homes that had been winterized.

I do not turn on water at the meter. If the agent wants to and will take the legal responsibility, then it is on them.

I do the inspection and in the report state that the plumbing fixtures and funtional flow could not be inspected because the water was turned off at the meter.

So far all the winterized homes I have done are foreclosures being purchased by investors who plan on doing some rehab to the property.

At one inspection, the agent turned on the water at the meter. The buyer, seller, and agent were gabbing while I did the inspection. They wandered into the bathroom and there was a big puddle on the floor. Agent turned off the water, went down the street to his house and brought back a mop and bucket and cleaned up.

Several others the buyer accepeted it as just something they would deal with during rehab.

Did one last week. Agent turned on water at the meter and got sprayed in the face. He turned it off and tried again. Got sprayed again. Stream was 5-6 feet in the air. Agent contacted seller and asked to have the city repair the meter. ELectiric meter had been pulled, service lateral cut, gas turned off and padlocked, water meter turned off. A week later seller asks for second trip. Agent goes to property and finds still no electric meter and service lateral still cut. Put second inspection on hold until utilities available.

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Bruce Ramsey
Advocate Inspections
www.NCAdvocate.com

I schedule my own jobs and one question I ask is if the home is vacant and if it is I ask if all the utilities are on. If something is off then I tell the client there will be some things that I won't be able to check.

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Eric Barker
Moraine Woods Consulting, Inc.
Barrington, IL

One of the questions I always ask during the initial call process is to ask, "is the home vacant or occupied?"

If vacant-- that prompts me to ask:
"Are all the utilities on?"
"Has the home been winterized, yet?"

They ususally have to get with the realtor to find out, then call me back and tell me that the electrial and gas is on but the water is off at the meter-- but they said it's ok for the inspector to go ahead and turn it on...

My reply... "Sure! I'll send over my waiver of liability, have the realtor or seller sign it and fax it back to me". "They can either sign the waiver or show up and turn it on themselves and I will forego the waiver."
(see attached waiver-- used this one today).

Ends up, the listing agent did not want to sign, so he came over and turned on the water.

Richard

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Waiver of Liability--utilities off.pdf (8.8 KB, 79 views)

__________________
"If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?"
Richard Rushing, HCRI
Duncanville, Tx.

I will pressure check the supply lines. It only takes a few minutes to bungy cord the toilet floats up and ensure that all of the valves and faucets are closed then pressure up with compressed air unsing the hose bib or washing machine connection. I do charge for this extra service but without it the client will not know anything aout the water lines. I have been given inspections in the past because I offer this service and most other inspectors don't.

Granted, I can not check the drains, but at least they will know if there is a leak in the supply line. If there is a leak, I try to identify the location of one leak and recommend that the lines are pressure tested again with air prior to turning on the water after that leak has been repaired. The leaks are pretty easy to find due to the noise from the escaping air (even behind walls).

I do not turn on the water to the home, but notify the client that if he/she wants to turn it on that they will be the ones responsible if there are leaks. I will not allow the water to be turned on if I have not pressure checked it or there is a leak and yes, I do get a signed waiver releasing me from any liability if there are problems.

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Integrity Inspection Service, LLC
www.irsindy.com
(317) 345-1828

I never inspect winterized properties. Those who winterized it can de-winterize it before my inspection or I will not do it. I simply cannot afford to spend the extra time turning everything on, lighting pilots, etc. I cannot charge extra - the market will not bear it.

And, did I mention that I skirt liability issues like the plague? Richard's well-written hold harmless notwithstanding, I prefer not to roll the dice by being the guy who floods the house. If a valve is turned off it is always for a reason. That reason is not always the one you assume it to be.

Aaron

I just did one in September that had been winterized and was De-winterized supposedly. Boiler had water around its base and the service switch was in off position. No way was I turning service switch to on position. How do I know they did not winterize the property properly and water froze in boiler and now there is a leak. As soon as I start the boiler they would say I broke it. Told client to have Oil Company out to have it serviced before closing. Realtor says well it is being sold as is. Not my problem. I told them before inspection all utilities needed to be on. Tankless hot water also could not check hot water either among other things. Basically a real pain in the ass.

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Dave

The thing with these is, you can take *nothing* for granted.

I recently did a "winterized" foreclosure where I badly burned the back of my hand when it brushed up against the boiler's circulating pump - the power switch to the boiler was installed upside down, and the pump had been running dry for two months. (My IR thermometer read the temp at the impeller housing at 372F).

Then the burners on the (drained down) water heater kicked in...

A smart man learns from his experience.
A truly smart man learns from other people's experience.

This thread (heck, this whole forum) offers the opportunity for several cases of being a truly smart man.

Here's another.

Should you decide to turn on the water, you also need to make sure that the washer hose connections are turned off. (Something I was just a smart man about!)

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Erby Crofutt, Georgetown, KY - Read my Blog here: Erby the Central Kentucky Home Inspector
B4 U Close Home Inspections www.b4uclose.com www.kentuckyradon.com

Erby,

A truly smart man lets the agent turn the water on.

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
www.AskCodeMan.com

And the truly smart man learned that from other people's (smart man's)experience.

-

__________________
Erby Crofutt, Georgetown, KY - Read my Blog here: Erby the Central Kentucky Home Inspector
B4 U Close Home Inspections www.b4uclose.com www.kentuckyradon.com

The winterized house thing is a bit of a hassle... and it's only going to get worse with all of the forclosures.

One interesting thing I picked up at a cont. ed conference once that a lot agent aren't even aware of is that in most purchase agreements the sellers agree to keep the property fully functional with all of the utilities on and in 'working order' for the purposes of inspection.

This has helped me get out from under being the 'bad guy' because I won't de-winterize the place. I've had several agents pull out the paperwork on the kitchen counter only to find out I'm right. It's fun watching them call and scream at the listing agent.... you'd think the agents would read this stuff......

Matt,

Around this area, a seller will have the utilities shut off when they move out even if their house is on the market.

Most think they can save a few bucks doing so but it can actually slow down the sale of a home and some instances just kill the deal.

The State of Texas sales agreement states that the seller should be responsible for turning on the utilites for inspection purposes.

Some are throwing up the saying, We'll were selling the house "as is" and we're not turning the utilities on. Where does this logic come from when your trying to sell a home you probably need to get rid of?

I had one the other day, that the seller had everything off and when told that it would take a few days to get them on had the nerve to tell the buyer he's hoped they were on before the option period ended or the buyer would be buying it anyway.

I told my client about the clause on the contract and that actually his contract didn't mean jacks*@# because the seller hadn't fullfilled his obligation of "providing utilities for inspection purposes" and maybe we should just look elsewhere for another home. Afterall who in their right mind would buy a home without having the utilities on to know their going to work once they have moved in?

The seller extended the option period.

rick

Rick,

I fight this crap all the time...

If the seller and agent give me a waiver of liability... heck... I'll do anything to not have to return to the property.

The picture you posted is not the normal but is the exception that were seeing. I've recently run across one exactly like what you have there. I tell the buyer that we can't do a good inspection without water on and the seller is just wasting his time and money without having it on.

I tell them my return fee and let them know that in accordance with the TREC contract, it is the buyer and the buyers agent requirement to have all utilities on at the time of inspection. Therefore, the buyer or the buyers agent should have to pay the return fee. About half the time, I get the agent to pay the buyer and I collect from them. Pizzes-off the agents to no end that I would inform them what the requirements are.

From the TREC Sales contract-- as follows:7. PROPERTY CONDITION:A. ACCESS, INSPECTIONS AND UTILITIES:Seller shall permit Buyer and Buyer's agent access to the property at reasonable times. Buyer may have the property inspected by inspectors selected by Buyer and licensed by TREC or otherwise permitted by law to make inspections. Seller at Seller's expense shall turn on existing utilities for inspections.

Richard
(Just another Dick)

__________________
"If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?"
Richard Rushing, HCRI
Duncanville, Tx.

Richard,

And how many times have we been told or asked to turn on the water at the meter?

It has been a long time practice of inspectors in our area to turn on the water after it has been turned off. Yeah, we go in and make sure all the fixtures are off before doing so, but there is a lot of responsibility in doing so.

I don't turn on any utilities anymore at all. I can remember years ago a HI I did the WDI for would actually remove the restriction cap in the meter to turn on the gas.

Have you seen these new red tags the City of Dallas is strapping to the meter?

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I won't turn water on...with or without a waiver. Early on, against my better judgment, I let the buyer's agent do it in a vacant home. He had assured the buyer--who assured me-- that the listing agent "guaranteed" that it would be on. When it wasn't, I was asked by the listing agent to turn it on and I politely refused, citing liability issues. I allowed the buyer's agent to borrow a wrench from my bag and turn it on. I went inside to monitor for problems. Sure enough, a fitting in the crappy, exposed DIY CPVC clothes washer connections blew apart. Water shot straight up to the ceiling. Fortunately, no one asked me to pay for anything.
My standard procedure when booking the inspection is to ask whether ALL utilities are on if it's a vacant home. I've actually booked a lot of jobs by doing that simple thing. After I explain that I really don't want to do an inspection where I can't do a complete and thorough job the client figures out that I'm really looking out for their best interests, not trying to shorten the time I spend on a job. Seems that a lot of inspectors around here never ask about utilities. I hate to sound cynical (but I will) by suggesting that they like to find utilities off upon arriving. They can then point out that it's not their responsibility to have utilities turned on. They insert a quick disclaimer about being unable to test water related items (and/or gas) and finish early. They go home happy since they get paid in full while having spent less time on the job.

The client doesn't feel so happy. I prefer a happy client to a marginally shorter work day.

Rick,

Yup. Seen'em several times. The city of Dallas will actually write you a ticket if they see you turning on the water-- usually a $200.00 type.

rr

__________________
"If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?"
Richard Rushing, HCRI
Duncanville, Tx.

I did a foreclosure property a couple of weeks ago. Buyer was with me during the inspection. Asked her to call their agent and determine if it was okay to operate faucets/toilets/etc. It was a strange deal, all of the faucets and toilets had little stickers on them indicating they were winterized, but the water to the main was on when I started the inspection. Im not sure we will even get our week of winter this year with global warming.............

Tony,

???

WHERE on earth do you come up with those things?

__________________
Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
www.AskCodeMan.com

Tony,

I could care less. Its right there in black and white on paper. Its not some secret document. Most people don't read them throughly enough to know whats in them. I only steer them to where they need to read up. I'm not giving advice, I'm giving them facts that their agent evidently didn't explain to them very well.

If they have a problem, get in line.

rick

You can get sued for *ANYTHING*!!! Inclusive of what Mount-Me stated above. I do mean anything and anytime.

Please, if you would... cite one case where an inspector has been sued for; 1.) Being truthful, 2) being accurate/ right, 3) Providing sound advice to your client with regards to what might be costing them money and it shouldn't.

Alot of the time, these folks are young and don't know anything other than what they are being told. Sometimes they are being told that it is their responsibility to have the utilities on. Well, in Texas that's not true unless it is specifically written into the contract as such, which it never is.

Just one. Cite it please.

I'm like Rick H.-- I could care less if some jack-azz wants to try and sue me over this mess. I'll counter-sue their arse right back.

Any judge on the planet will make their determination based on 1.) Law and precedents then 2) Was the inspector looking after his/her clients best interest vs was the same held true for the Realtor (who by the way, has fiduciary responsibilities) who brought the suit.

No contest.

Rich

__________________
"If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?"
Richard Rushing, HCRI
Duncanville, Tx.

Winterized homes must have notices posted. Usually there is directions with those notices explaining how to make use of the utilities.

If the electricity is on when you arrive, it's probably because a realtor turned it on when showing and didn't turn it back off. All valves are closed after winterizing. If one is open when the water is turned back on, more than likely someone that viewed the home opened it. Not all properties will be shut off at the meter but all will be shut off at the main valve going into the home and that will zip tied or disabled. Not all properties will have cut pipes with caps. It depends on the area, the city/county regulates that. If the city allows it, HUD requires it.

Many realtors winterize the home themselves. Right now there's many realtors doing the preservation work because they are hungry.

Walked in on a client assist, he and his agent arrived before me, tub drain was open but not draining. I caught him before he allowed it to reach the overflow.
Needless to say I had to add verbiage just to cover this. Oh well

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__________________
badair http://www.adairinspection.com Garland, TX 75042
Residential-Commercial-Construction-EIFS-Infrared Thermography
life is the random lottery of events followed by numerous narrow escapes

Turning the water on at the meter violates some city ordinances, if it is a City system. Up here that valve would have frozen already, along with the meter, I take it that the disconnected water line in the photo is the house service? Maybe they disconnected it and used air to blow out the system?

I've used air attached to a faucet to blow out lines when winterizing a home, along with RV antifreeze in all the drains and draining the hot water tank. At our family cabin, back when we winterized it we pumped RV Antifreeze through the system, I know some of the plumbers still do that here when winterizing vacation homes. A few years ago we re-plumbed the cabin, getting rid of the old galvanized and putting in copper, the whole system, kitchen, two baths and laundry can now be completely drained without air at the well. Great system.

I've had both Realtor's and clients say that they would turn the water on if I wouldn't, the client I can usually talk out of doing so, Realtors often back off when I tell them they either have to sign a waiver relieving my client and I of all responsibility, and I take a picture of them turning it on.

Three years ago I got to a vacant house and found a note from the Realtor saying that he had been called away but that the house was open and to go ahead and inspect it, I opened the door and saw that all the floors were covered with water and I could hear water running upstairs, it turned out to be an open drain valve on the hot water tank, which like every sink and fixture in the home had a bright orange tag attached saying the the system had been winterized and NOT to Turn on either the Water or the Hot Water Tank circuit breaker until the valves had been closed and the water tank filled.

I shut off the valve and called the city, who sent someone to turn the water back off, the Realtor had broken a plastic tie that the City used to seal the shut off valve, lucky for me a neighbor had seen the Realtor turn it on and that his footprints in the snow around the meter, didn't match mine.

The jerk at first tried to say that I must have turned it on, but the Water department guy had noticed the one set of prints that didn't match my boots, while I was calling the Realtor every name I could think of, the neighbor came out and said she saw the Realtor do it the afternoon before. It ended up costing the Realtor lots of money, the sale, and his job (at that Realty), I've never gotten another referral from that Office either. No loss all they ever gave me were 100 year old farm houses way out in the sticks that no one else would inspect, great fun especially when a Complete WDO report is required by State Law.

Tony, did you lose?

__________________
Jim Luttrall
www.MrInspector.net
Allen, Texas 75002

Tony M.

Where are you located?

__________________
It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie!
Billy J. Stephens HI Service
Memphis TN.

Tony,

I can assure you, and personally attest to, that the opposite is true unless you are some kind of flake or minimalist. If you (not you as in 'you personally' but as in 'the plural') consistently only do, and profess to only do, the minimum required by law, you are setting yourself up for doing anything above that level by those agents who expect only the minimum from you. In which case you are setting up your own fate.

Take other HIs who continually exceed the minimums and people expect those HIs to take a proactive stance, in which case nothing like that happens.

Now, you wouldn't be the type to only do, and profess to only do, the minimum required by law, would you?

__________________
Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
www.AskCodeMan.com

Tony,

Why the reference to the lady being "black"?

Why was she upset about the house being 50 miles away? What is that about?

100 year old house and being completely remodeled with only a few minor defects. I'm sure.

Sounds like you did step your bounds as a inspector when you gave legal advice about monies of the financial transaction.

I don't do that. I only explained if you read my post is that my client was not aware of the text in the contract regarding the seller being responsible for having the utilites on at the time of the inspection which is just cause for for my client to opt out of the contract if he were to choose to do.

This particular agent was trying to bullsh*# my client into thinking he had to pay for the utilities to be turned on, when it was not in his contract to do so. It was the contractual obligation of the seller, not my client.

Sounds kind of like the agent mentioning to your client that she would "loose" the house if she asked for proper repairs. Smells like bullsh*# to me and an agent trying to just get someone in a title company to sign off.

In the contract here in Texas, the buyer has the right if the repairs are not done as agreed upon, the buyer can have the repairs or any treatments done and ask for reimbursement from the seller at closing. It also states that repairs have to be done by "licensed" persons. The closing date can also be delayed up to 15 days to take care of the repairs by the buyer if need be.

This is also public information on the TREC website which anyone could access if they wanted.


Rick H.
(from a family full of Attorneys and Realtors too.)

__________________
"If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?"
Richard Rushing, HCRI
Duncanville, Tx.

If you click on User CP in the left upper corner you can fill in the info that didn't get carried over.

__________________
Illegal aliens have always been a problem in the United States. Ask any Indian. -Robert Orben, magician and author (b. 1927) / www.ArnoldHomeInspections.com

Goodby Dan for at least 30 days, You should be getting a post from Brian

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It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie!
Billy J. Stephens HI Service
Memphis TN.

Everyone, This is proof that Dan, Richard, Jerry, and anyone else that like to stoop to slander and quote a biggot should be removed from this sight. Come on Brian this has gone far enough.

Darn. I can't remember if that post Tony deleted constitutes libel or slander. Never could keep those straight. Have to ask my attorney, I guess.

__________________
Illegal aliens have always been a problem in the United States. Ask any Indian. -Robert Orben, magician and author (b. 1927) / www.ArnoldHomeInspections.com

Tony - Why don't you put back your post about your server not allowing you to visit certain sites that you claim some of us frequent, and then talk about stooping to slander.

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Illegal aliens have always been a problem in the United States. Ask any Indian. -Robert Orben, magician and author (b. 1927) / www.ArnoldHomeInspections.com

Sorry John, I didn't realize you was just like Dan, you should be hearing from Brian too, goodbye. At least Dan was smart enough to delete his post before Brian read them. What are you stupid too, your post proves that you go to those sights. Thanks again Brian we don't need people like this on our message board.

That's rich, coming from the master of multiple personalities.
My good friends Jeff, Warren, Scott and Dan all agree.
Get a clue and grow up.

From what I read of Dan's posts, and of your posts, only yours needs to be deleted (and I see you've deleted many) and the only poster needing to be deleted is you.

__________________
Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
www.AskCodeMan.com

<-- grabs his popcorn, coke and 3d glasses.

Maybe Jerry, John, Dom, Richard, Richard, and Rich, thinks its funny, cool, professional, or whatever to post persons name on a immoral web sight but I think it is sick. I hope Brian feels the same way as me, and kicks everyone of you off for at least 30 days. If not maybe me and the other 677 members that have viewed this post will find another web site to post.

I'm sitting next to Joshua with raisenettes, and SUPER SIZED coke/popcorn.......man...this board is BETTER than the movies....

Rick Hurst: See what you started!

Oh, Rick: I never turn on a darn thing. Sellers' job. Now.....Back to the MOVIE!

What is he whining about?

What web site is he talking of?

Did I miss something or what?

Tony, it seems when you do make an appearance on here periodically your the one who seems to bring on the trouble and really offer no suitable advice but come on the board to only ridicule someone or stir up arguments.

I have not done so to anyone on here till now, but I'm adding you to my "ignorant" list, sorry I mean my "ignore" list.

rick

.
.

Alright Move Along "There's Nothing to See Here."
.
.

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__________________
It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie!
Billy J. Stephens HI Service
Memphis TN.