Appears that it does:

ICC Bulletin Board: setting toilet over ceramic tiled floor

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Michael Thomas
Paragon Property Services Inc., Chicago IL
http://paragoninspects.com

"Re: IRC requires toilet be caulked to floor?"

Always has.

Even the old pre-ICC codes have.

I've never understood how you can 'seal the fixture watertight to the floor' and yet 'leave out some sealant at the back' - just boggles my mind I tell you.

From the last post there:

"
Very nice Dana- bottom line is the code specifies where a fixture comes in contact with the wall or floor,the joint between the fixture and the floor shall be made watertight."
"

followed by

"
I don't see much room for misinterpretation but apparently there is some.
"

Okay, at this point I thought that poster had it down, down pat, but, after reading on, he stated:

"
I do agree that not sealing a slight spot at back side of base is a desired application as it will alert owner and others to a leak at bowl to flange connection as well as allowing any moisture which might develop under toilet to dry up.
"

Let me get this straight - he says ... 'okay, I understand, it needs to be sealed watertight, and, I think that pretty much clears it up so there should not be any mis-understanding, and, by the way, leave an un-watertight opening at the back' ... Huh!

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )

What can one say - we've all seen the results.

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Michael Thomas
Paragon Property Services Inc., Chicago IL
http://paragoninspects.com

It seems like the code says what it says - seal it at the pipe and the base of the fixture.

It's a bit like the escutcheon around a shower arm. I say they should be sealed, but cannot disagree with plumbers that like to leave a small hole in the sealant at the bottom. Makes sense in this context.

Aaron

Now I get it! A few years ago I heard back from a client - plumber came in for leaking toilet base. He ran a bead of caulk around the base and charged $150.00. The following summer I heard of a plumber doing the same and charging $200.00. Until now I always thought that that was one of the more stupid solutions - now I now better. And to think that I've been telling people that it was probably a leaking ring.

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Eric Barker
Moraine Woods Consulting, Inc.
Barrington, IL

I know that the IRC calls for it, but I recommend that a small section remain uncaulked at the rear. If the ring is compromised and starts to leak, I would like to know about it as soon as possible. Leaving a samll section at the rear uncaulked will hopefully allow some leakage to be visible at that point. If the leak goes un-noticed, what hapens to the floor under the toilet after a year or so?

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Integrity Inspection Service, LLC
www.irsindy.com
(317) 345-1828

The problem is that, with water being used to clean the floor (from mopping, from splashing out of the tub next to it, etc.), more water will get in under the base of the toilet for a much longer period than from the wax seal.

The wax seal is intended to keep the waste and accompanying liquid inside the DWV system.

Sealing around the perimeter of the base of the toilet is intended to keep unwanted water out.

If the wax seal is doing its job, and if the sealant around the base is doing its job, the space between the two will remain dry.

Why *intentionally* drain water *into* that space?

The sealant around the outside is not related to keeping the waste back if the wax seal leaks, you will see that soon enough anyway, so why compromise the installation by creating a channel for the water it is intended to keep out?

The code says "watertight", leaving a gap makes it "not watertight" regardless of what is used. Might as well not use anything at all - just set the wax ring, set the bowl, and be done with it. If you "would like to know about it as soon as possible" ... then that is the way to do it - use nothing at all.

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )

Those anchor bolts are *all* that is needed to properly and securely secure a toilet to the floor flange ... provided that the toilet is set properly. If the toilet rocks or is unstable due to an uneven floor or uneven tile, then lead shims can be fashioned to be wedged in under the base of the toilet to properly level and support it (and not damage the china in any way).

Adhesive caulk *will not* secure a toilet down. That "is pretty much a no brainer.", yes.

If you need to stabilize a toilet, what I've always used (and I got this tip from many different plumbers) is to take sheet lead (like used for the old shower pans, I would just use a lead vent flashing and cut it into a sheet), cut a strip about a couple of inches wide and maybe 6" long, fold about 1" or more over onto itself at one end, hammer it down tight, fold that over onto itself again, hamming it down tight, and continue doing so until it is thick enough to 'not quite slip in under the toilet where the floor is low'. Cut that off the remaining part of your strip and tap that lead shim in under the toilet base. The lead, even hammer to compaction, will deform enough to fit in under the base, use a hammer and a block of wood, tapping it in until the front of the lead shim is even with the edge of the base, then just a little more to leave room for caulk/sealant.

If the floor is really uneven (like some tile is), you may need to do this at more than one location around the toilet base. But the anchor bolts *are* all that is needed properly secure a toilet down to the floor flange, which should itself be properly secured down to the floor.

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )

The grout will not hold the toilet stable if it is not set stable. The grout will crack. I have seen lots of cracked and crumbling grout around toilets which was used to try to hold the toilet bowl stable and level. The toilet bowl needs to be set stable and level ... THEN sealed around.

Quote:

The bolts just hold the floor flange to the bottom of the toilet and will not hold the toilet in place unless you have an old cast iron flange.

IF ... *if* being key ... the plastic floor flange is secured properly, and the proper floor flange is used, and the bowl is set stable and level, the anchor bolts will hold the bowl to the plastic floor flange properly (the bolts only need to keep it down ... as long as the bowl was set stable, with 'being set stable' as the key). I've also seen plastic floor flanges with a metal ring around the top which makes them stronger.

The bowl must be set stable for the wax ring to seal and maintain its seal. If the bowl is not stable and moves, the was ring will fail to seal, or fail to seal over time.

If the bowl is not set stable and level, anchor bolts even into a cast iron floor flange will not hold it, at worst that will crack the bowl base, at best that will leak at the wax ring.

There is no substitute for setting the bowl stable and level ... prior to anchoring it down ... then the anchor bolts only have to hold the bowl down.

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )

"Either that, or we have really incompetent plumbers installing these toilets."

Close.

From my experience seeing many thousands of plastic floor flanges installed the answer to the loose toilets is quite simple:

The floor flange *IS NOT* (in so many of the installations) anchored down at all. I don't care if the floor flange is cast iron, if the floor flange is not anchored to the floor, there is no way for the toilet to be any other than "loose". Neither cast iron pipe nor PVC pipe is going to hold a toilet in place.

The floor flange is the transition connection between the structure and the DWV piping. The piping is sealed and is attached to the rigidly secured floor flange (should be rigidly secured any way). The water closet (toilet) is then securely attached to the floor flange. The wax ring is the sealing gasket between the two. It does not matter if the pipe is cast within a concrete slab or sticking up through a hole cut in a plywood or OSB sub-floor, the pipe IS NOT designed nor intended to secure the toilet in place. That is the job of the floor flange, and the floor flange can only do that job when it is in turn properly secured down.

My guess for all (or at least most) of you loose toilets is: floor flanges not anchored to the slab or sub-floor.

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )

Which means they did not use stainless steel bolts or brass bolts, as should have been used. Not a problem with having two bolts. By the way, old, old, old, toilets did come with 4 bolts for securing them down.

The bolts don't come loose due to weight, stress or strain. Again, *IF*, if the toilet is set stable and level, and the bolts are tightened properly, they will be sufficient.

Again, not a bolt problem, and installer problem.

They are in slots to allow the toilet to be aligned properly. Once tightened, they should stay put.

No, all the other problems you mentioned are the cause of loose bolts.

The larger and heavier the toilets are, the less need for strong bolts. All the bolts do is hold it in place. The more it weighs, the more it is likely to stay in place by itself, un-bolted even. Does a large heavy rock need to be bolted down to keep you from moving it with your foot? Nope.

The reason for the caulking is to keep *other* water out from under the bowl base. The *waste* water is in the bowl, trap, and pipe.

There really is *no* substitute for setting a toilet stable, level, and secure - using the bolts which comes with it (provided the floor flange is properly secured down, of course).

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )

My $0.02 ... from an engineering perspective.

IMO, securing the toilet only with the two bolts to the flange is a poor design. A better design would securely connect the toilet to the waste plumbing, and the toilet would also be securely fastened to the floor -- each connection independent of the other.

One just needs to look at loose toilets and rotten subfloors reported all across the country to see that the current design could use some improvement.

You mean like this:

Saying adhesive caulking will hold the bowl down, and calling it a no brainer. My, my, we must be touchy.

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )

As a plumber and sewer man, I have installed a countless number of toilets over my 30 year career. If the floor is solid and level, a toilet needs nothing more than a wax ring and two 5/8" Toilet Bolts properly tightened. If the installer knows what he is doing, a toilet will be sealed and remain water tight and odor free until it has to be replaced. Using any type of caulk or adhesive is just an amateur way of sealing an improperly installed toilet.

(bold is mine)
All within the same post. Nothing like telling us you are smarter than the others. Then telling us you don't like posts like that???

"Or could we improve on an outdated design?"

Sure, put bolts every 2 inches around the base.

"it is latent. That is the real problem, the design is not for the long haul. Without a "locking" system, it is doomed to failure."

That anchoring has been around "for the long haul" and has survived because it works. Like everything else, it works ... when done properly.

There is nothing latent about it, it is not a design problem, it is an installation problem.

Just like installing 100 foot long 14 AWG copper 15 amp circuits and wondering why there is a voltage drop problem - it is not the copper wire, it is not the 14 AWG size, it is that it was misused and run 100 long.

Install a toilet properly - as Charles stated: "If the floor is solid and level, a toilet needs nothing more than a wax ring and two 5/8" Toilet Bolts properly tightened. If the installer knows what he is doing, a toilet will be sealed and remain water tight and odor free until it has to be replaced."

Charles also added: "Using any type of caulk or adhesive is just an amateur way of sealing an improperly installed toilet.", and he is correct there too.

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )

Then ... you stated that you know what was wrong, i.e., you are smarter than everyone else who installs toilets, even plumbers.

THEN ... you stated you don't like posts where the poster thinks they are smarter than anyone else.

You simply cannot have it both ways.

I also respect OPINIONS, yours too ... when not stated that YOUR OPINION is the gospel truth and don't anyone doubt it or show where it might be wrong.

That is the implication you are putting out here.

Soooo ... you must have heard from Tony M.?

I know I have a problem ... when someone tries to tell us all that something obviously incorrect is correct and that it is the only thing which is correct, I do have a problem with that. Yep, got to admit that, for sure.

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )