Pex piping and fittings - InspectionNews

Tom Rees · #1 (**permalink**) 03-17-2008, 10:52 AM

I have been a little confused recently with all the concern about pex piping, fittings (Zurn) etc. Would someone let me know how to indentify the problem products, fittings etc., it seems that every time i turn around there is a new concern or wrong way to install etc. I have a disclaimer in my report whenever I see these products but would like to offer my clients more specific rather than general advice. Thank you.

Scott Patterson · #2 (**permalink**) 03-17-2008, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Rees

I have been a little confused recently with all the concern about pex piping, fittings (Zurn) etc. Would someone let me know how to indentify the problem products, fittings etc., it seems that every time i turn around there is a new concern or wrong way to install etc. I have a disclaimer in my report whenever I see these products but would like to offer my clients more specific rather than general advice. Thank you.

The ZURN fittings that are in question will have Made in China stamped on them. The brass alloy mixture had problems and caused the fittings to split and crack. Try doing a Google search and you should be able to get some additional information.

Shawn Raiter · #3 (**permalink**) 03-18-2008, 01:23 PM

Gentlemen:

I am the attorney that brought the first class action lawsuit against Zurn for the problems with pex fittings. The fittings at issue in the various cases against Zurn are the brass pex fittings.

Zurn's brass pex fittings can be identified by their "Q" or "Q PEX" stamp. The Q stands for Qest, which is a trade name Zurn has used for its pex systems. There is not necessarily a "made in" stamp on these fittings.

You can see pictures of some of the kinds of fittings at issue in these lawsuits by visiting Zurn&reg Class Action Informational Website.

Thanks.

Shawn M. Raiter

Scott Patterson · #4 (**permalink**) 03-18-2008, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawn Raiter

Gentlemen:

I am the attorney that brought the first class action lawsuit against Zurn for the problems with pex fittings. The fittings at issue in the various cases against Zurn are the brass pex fittings.

Zurn's brass pex fittings can be identified by their "Q" or "Q PEX" stamp. The Q stands for Qest, which is a trade name Zurn has used for its pex systems. There is not necessarily a "made in" stamp on these fittings.

You can see pictures of some of the kinds of fittings at issue in these lawsuits by visiting Zurn&reg Class Action Informational Website.

Thanks.

Shawn M. Raiter

Hi Shawn,

Thanks for sharing the information. It is very timely. I learned something today about the Zurn fittings, I don't know if it is true or not but it makes a whole lot of sense! I was told that Zurn changed the thickness of their fittings in order to increase the inside diameter of the fittings to help increase the flow of water. This is another reason that the fittings started to fail.

Jerry Peck · #5 (**permalink**) 03-18-2008, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawn Raiter

I am the attorney that brought the first class action lawsuit against Zurn for the problems with pex fittings. The fittings at issue in the various cases against Zurn are the brass pex fittings.

Shawn,

From your web page regarding Zurn fittings: "Zurn has also stopped selling the brass fittings elsewhere and is now touting its plastic Pex fittings" ...

I recommend you stay abreast of those plastic fittings, that was the second failure with PB pipe installations.

The first failure was the aluminum crimp rings, then, when the aluminum crimp rings were changed to copper crimp rings, the plastic fittings began to fail, resulting in copper crimp rings and copper fittings.

You may be able to 'just update your file' (so to speak) and file a whole new case and get another judgment for it.

Best of luck in generating a continuous stream of income - something which would be nice if we all could do it.

Bruce King · #6 (**permalink**) 03-18-2008, 04:20 PM

Does anyone know when Zurn changed the wall thickness?

Inspected a house today built in late 2001 and it has Qpex fittings.
Note the improper crimp but it has leaked at the other crimp.
Only one side of the fitting will indicate "QPEX"

Shawn Raiter · #7 (**permalink**) 03-19-2008, 09:53 AM

Bruce:

The fittings at issue in our suit were installed as early as the late 1990's.

We believe that the primary problem with the fittings relates to the type of brass used. The high zinc content brass Zurn chose can fail in this type of crimp system installation because of dezincification and stress corrosion cracking.

Hope this helps.

Shawn Raiter

Eric Van De Ven · #8 (**permalink**) 03-19-2008, 11:43 AM

Has anyone experience any loss of pressure or flow with these systems? I ask, because I recently inspected a large home and when the shower, sink and toilet were operated, there was virtually no pressure present at the shower head or the sink faucet.

There was also a discrepancy between the hot and cold pressures as well. At first I thought it was just a bad valve in the washing machine because that was the first place I checked. The laundry room sink was just as bad and with the washing machine on, hardly any pressure was observed at the faucet.

This home was built in 2006.

Shawn Raiter · #9 (**permalink**) 03-19-2008, 12:04 PM

It may be a problem with dezincification. This problem causes buildup in the pipes.

See the pictures below, which come from the lawsuit involving Kitec plumbing.

Scott Patterson · #10 (**permalink**) 03-19-2008, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Van De Ven

Has anyone experience any loss of pressure or flow with these systems? I ask, because I recently inspected a large home and when the shower, sink and toilet were operated, there was virtually no pressure present at the shower head or the sink faucet.

There was also a discrepancy between the hot and cold pressures as well. At first I thought it was just a bad valve in the washing machine because that was the first place I checked. The laundry room sink was just as bad and with the washing machine on, hardly any pressure was observed at the faucet.

This home was built in 2006.

Yes, you will find a loss of pressure with PEX. The reason has to do with the ID of the pipe and the fittings. The pipe must slide over the fitting so the fitting will have to have a smaller diameter to fit inside of the PEX pipe. This is one of the reasons that the PEX manufacturers recommend the use of a manifold to help in the reduction of fittings. I look at PEX like aluminum wiring, you must upsize it to compensate of the reduction of flow.

Eric Van De Ven · #11 (**permalink**) 03-19-2008, 01:27 PM

Thanks for the replies!
I noticed on this particular house, that the lines going to the whirlpool tub were, what appeared to be 1/2 inch or smaller.
This home didn't have the manifold system. It was run just like copper, only with PEX.

Bruce King · #12 (**permalink**) 03-19-2008, 01:32 PM

No loss of flow or pressure in my home with 3/4 pex and piped with no manifold.
My well pump cycles from 55psi to near 70psi.

Some homes may use too much 1/2 pipe and the cheap built homes have really crappy fixtures. The problem is not with 3/4 pex.

You have to remember the low flow faucets and shower heads used in newer construction and you should have at least 60psi supplied to the home for good performance. 45- 50psi might be adequate but weak and 70 psi should be blasting water out of large tubs which have high flow tub faucets.

Most issues are traceable to fine debris in the faucet screens which can be really bad after new construction or ongoing with well water even when filtered through the best filter available.

Dom D'Agostino · #13 (**permalink**) 03-19-2008, 01:36 PM

Often times the "installers" of Pex will use excessive quantities of fittings, simply because it is so easy to add them.

If they had to sweat each of those connections, they'd look for a more direct run.

Eric Van De Ven · #14 (**permalink**) 03-19-2008, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce King

No loss of flow or pressure in my home with 3/4 pex and piped with no manifold.
My well pump cycles from 55psi to near 70psi.

Some homes may use too much 1/2 pipe and the cheap built homes have really crappy fixtures. The problem is not with 3/4 pex.

You have to remember the low flow faucets and shower heads used in newer construction and you should have at least 60psi supplied to the home for good performance. 45- 50psi might be adequate but weak and 70 psi should be blasting water out of large tubs which have high flow tub faucets.

Most issues are traceable to fine debris in the faucet screens which can be really bad after new construction or ongoing with well water even when filtered through the best filter available.

I would agree with you Bruce, except that there was plenty of what appears to be 1/2 inch pipe and, I removed several aerators as well as a couple of shower heads.
There were problems everywhere. I am waiting to hear back from the Client as to whether or not they bought the home. It was a foreclosure and they were getting a real good deal.

Personally, I wouldn't have any of this stuff in my house!

David Banks · #15 (**permalink**) 03-20-2008, 01:00 PM

Hardly ever see pex here in MA. Wouldn't you know it todays townhouse had Zurn pex. Does anyone know the years of the fittings problems. This is brand new construction. 2007-8. Pics are poor quality. I hate when i do that!

Tom Rees · #16 (**permalink**) 03-20-2008, 02:43 PM

David, From what I can see at all the web sites etc., all brass fittings are suspect. I would ask Shawn Reiter who is lawyer for lawsuit. His info is earler in this same discussion.

B Chapin · #17 (**permalink**) 03-21-2008, 09:48 PM

Recent testing by the NAHB (National Assoc. of Home Builders) shows that there is no difference between Pex and copper when it comes to fixture demand, even with multiple fixtures flowing. (look at the orafices in a shower valve, they are very, very, very tiny! Why worry about fittings?)

Mike Cudahy · #18 (**permalink**) 03-31-2008, 07:52 AM

Last poster is correct, and upsizing tubing without good reason is wasteful of hot water.

Copper has velocity limitations 4-5 ft/s other materials do not have to prevent hot water cavitation corrosion. Fixtures are also very restricted these days. However, good design and layout should be followed as in very long runs pressure drop is possible in all materials.

The codes and the Design Guide - Residential PEX Water Supply Plumbing Systems PEX Design Guide can help with charts on flow rates and pressure drops.

Just adding 90's elbows to any system will increase the effective length of a run. The advantage of flexible tubing is avoiding fittings and rapid changes in direction.

Mike
PPFA

John Goad · #19 (**permalink**) 04-29-2008, 01:51 PM

What are some of you putting in your reports about the Zurn fitting failures & subsequent class action suits?

Scott Patterson · #20 (**permalink**) 04-29-2008, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Goad

What are some of you putting in your reports about the Zurn fitting failures & subsequent class action suits?

I guess if I came across it and it had the fittings that are in question I would simple tell that they are involved in a suit and provide the website for them to get additional information.
I have not seen any Zurn in a few years, I see mostly Wirsbo.

Brad Spell · #21 (**permalink**) 05-30-2008, 09:59 AM

Was under a 1955 home yesterday and would like help Identifying the the pipe attached to the copper pipe. Here are a couple of photos and other than the obvious problems in the picture is this PEX pipe connected to the copper? If not what is the proper name for it. The home was said to be fully repiped with copper.
Thanks, Brad

Jerry Peck · #22 (**permalink**) 05-30-2008, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad Spell

The home was said to be fully repiped with copper.

The 'sure thing' which you can say is that the home was not fully re-piped with copper.

Eric Van De Ven · #23 (**permalink**) 05-30-2008, 11:28 AM

And, since there are four different type of piping, you could probably safely say that no permit was pulled or inspections were done.