I've never seen this before and thought I'd toss this out there... Anyone ever seen an expansion tank installed on the hot side of the water heater? Is there anything inherently wrong with the installation?

Thanks

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Photos 049.jpg (20.9 KB, 173 views)

Reis,

Where's the Draft Hood?

I'm guessing this installation is in the garage and should be 18 inches above the floor.

Sunday Pot Roast is ready gotta go.

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It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie!
Billy J. Stephens HI Service
Memphis TN.

Well for starters I'm not aware of any manufacturer that allows for it to be installed on the hot water side. Just a wild guess but I'm betting that a constant supply of hot water on the diaphragm might tend to weaken it. Also the water will want to expand back toward the cool side or the water inlet.

It looks like a Watts tank so you might be able to contact Watts for the correct install guidelines.

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Scott Patterson
Spring Hill, TN
http://www.traceinspections.com

This is a direct vent, sealed combustion chamber unit so it does not need to be 18" off the ground as well as it is sealed from the garage. This room used to be part of the garage and they converted to a laundry room with a wall between the garage and the laundry room.

Thanks for the input... I'll check Watts...

Reis,

Sorry no Watts Installation instructions.

This is what I have and it's on the cold side.

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Exspan. Tank Install.pdf (70.3 KB, 59 views)

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It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie!
Billy J. Stephens HI Service
Memphis TN.

Reis:

M1307.3 Elevation of ignition source.
Appliances having an ignition source shall be elevated such that the source of ignition is not less than 18 inches (457 mm) above the floor in garages. For the purpose of this section, rooms or spaces that are not part of the living space of a dwelling unit and that communicate with a private garage through openings shall be considered to be part of the garage.

G2448.2 (624.2) Water heaters utilized for space heating.
Water heaters utilized both to supply potable hot water and provide hot water for space-heating applications shall be listed and labeled for such applications by the manufacturer and shall be installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s installation instructions and this code.

A.O. Smith and State Industries:
INSTALLATIONS IN AREAS WHERE FLAMMABLE LIQUIDS
(VAPORS) ARE LIKELY TO BE PRESENT OR STORED (GARAGES,
STORAGE AND UTILITY AREAS, ETC.): Flammable liquids (such as
gasoline, solvents, propane (LP or butane, etc.) and other substances
(such as adhesives, etc.) emit flammable vapors which can be ignited
by a gas water heater’s pilot light or main burner. The resulting flashback
and fire can cause death or serious burns to anyone in the area. Even
though this water heater is a flammable vapors ignition resistant water
heater and is designed to reduce the chances of flammable vapors
being ignited, gasoline and other flammable substances should never
be stored or used in the same vicinity or area containing a gas water
heater or other open flame or spark producing appliance.

Rheem/Ruud:
This water heater must be installed in accordance with these instructions, local codes, utility company requirements, and/or in the absence of local codes, use the latest edition of the American National Standard/National Fuel Gas Code. A copy can be purchased from either the American Gas Association, 400 N. Capitol Street NW, Washington, DC 20001 as ANSI standard Z223.1 or National Fire Protection Association, 1 Batterymarch Park, Quincy, MA 02269 as booklet NFPA 54.

American Water Heater:
IT IS NOT DESIRABLE TO INSTALL A GAS FIRED WATER HEATER IN A
RESIDENTIAL GARAGE. IF INSTALLATION IN A RESIDENTIAL GARAGE IS
YOUR ONLY OPTION, THIS WATER HEATER MUST BE INSTALLED SUCH
THAT THE PILOT FLAME AND MAIN BURNER FLAME ARE NO LESS THAN
18 INCHES ABOVE THE FLOOR (SEE FIGURE 2, PAGE 6). THIS IS TO
REDUCE BUT NOT ELIMINATE THE RISK OF IGNITING FLAMMABLE
VAPORS WHICH MAY BE PRESENT IN A GARAGE. THE WATER HEATER
MUST BE LOCATED OR PROTECTED TO AVOID PHYSICAL DAMAGE BY
VEHICLES OR FLOODING. FAILURE TO FOLLOW THESE WARNINGS
CAN CAUSE A FIRE OR EXPLOSION, RESULTING IN PROPERTY
DAMAGE, PERSONAL INJURY OR DEATH.

Aaron

I'm cool with the sealed combustion chamber relieving the 18" requirement, but there should still be a draft hood. The water heater has to take room air with it to properly draft and without a draft hood, it can't.

Also, I don't like the washing machine hookup that close to the water heater. A washing machine placed there will be too close to the heater itself.

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Integrity Inspection Service, LLC
www.irsindy.com
(317) 345-1828

http://www.watts.com/pdf/1915323.pdf

Aaron

This is the installation guide for the unit in the picture.

http://www.statewaterheaters.com/lit...183774-000.pdf

It is built without a draft hood..

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Scott Patterson
Spring Hill, TN
http://www.traceinspections.com

I had that same State water heater setup on Friday. The "flue" was also a State heater product, so it must come as a "system." I tried to look at the instructions, but the installer put them under the water heater.

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Paul Kondzich
www.altitudehomeinspection.com

On the expansion tank vein, any thoughts on the "adequate drainage" provisions needed for attic installation? This would seem to be a catch 22 when there is no place to install the expansion tank except the attic with the water heater, maybe an alternative valve protection should be used instead of the tank? Any thought from people in the land of no basements?

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Jim Luttrall
Mr. Inspector.net, Inc.
Allen, Texas 75002

I have one in my home. The expansion valve has a small tube that takes any water to the exterior of my home. Also the entire unit sits in a drain pan that drains to the exterior and that will catch some of the water if the tank fails

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Scott Patterson
Spring Hill, TN
http://www.traceinspections.com

Scott,

Ever contacted any of the manufacturer's and asked the following two questions (separately on separate occasions, of course).

Question: 'Are your water heater allowed to set down into the drain pan below the top of the drain pan?'

Answer: 'Our water heaters are allowed to be installed with the drain pan as shown in the installation instructions.' (My note: Which, by the way, shows the water heater setting down in the drain pan on the bottom of the drain pan.)

Question: 'The water heater sets in the drain pan below the flood level rim of the drain pan, the drain pan outlet allows approximately 1" of water to remain in the drain pan - are your water heaters allowed to be installed partially submerged like that?'

Answer: 'None of our water heaters are allowed to be partially submerged in water.'

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )

ECJ:

You'd need to contact their attorneys who write the gibberish that passes as installation instructions. But alas, they aren't allowed to give answers that are partially submerged in the truth.

Aaron

Aaron,

No, I did ask those questions, and those are the answers I was given.

I was pointing out that it depends on "how" you ask the question, and that "how" you ask the question will get you different answers ... from the same people.

No attorneys involved, just technical support persons.

One way (as shown in their installation instructions) gets you the 'yes, that is acceptable' when asked if it should be done that way (obviously - they show it that way, so it must be okay).

The other way (when you describe what happens when installed as shown) gets the 'none of our water heaters are designed or approved to be partially submerged' answer.

__________________
Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )

Since when is there a company with more that zero employees where no attorney is involved?

Technical support is a known oxymoron.

Doublespeak (dba boolsheit - that's Hannspeak for bullshit) is the official language of business, especially in the USA.

The authors of the IRC don't even being to have a corner on that market, but they are getting more adept by the day at writing nonsense. How prescriptive can a code really be when no on knows what's being prescribed? How instructive can installation instructions actually be when by there mere reformulation of a question, the answer to a simple question differs significantly?

Aaron

Case in point.

The whole point of "direct vent" appliances is that they can be used in areas where the typical gas appliance can't be used because they do not obtain their combustion air from the interior but from the exterior. The large curved vent you see has a smaller flue coming through the center of it. Cold air from outside comes in on the outer perimeter of the vent intake and goes to the burner pan to supply combustion air. Exhaust gases rise through the center and exit via the smaller internal vent.

Placing a gas water heater in a laundry room would be a boner move if combustion air were obtained from the interior, because of the corrosive air created by chlorine bleach used to wash laundry, plus, a clothes dryer will affect the amount of combustion air available when the dryer is running - especially if it is a gas dryer - and can actually cause a dryer to backdraft into a house - thus the reason for a sealed combustion direct vent water heater, which is unaffected by the dryer and has no requirement for a draft diverter. In fact, altering this to add a draft diverter would be very dangerous.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

The expansion tanks are made for the purpose of absorbing expansion of the hot water when the system is not in use but the water is being heated.
Scenario:
A couple of showers are taken in the morning.
The heater is now mostly cool/cold water. This being more dense.
No longer a demand on the heater and it the regulator has a back check in it (many do) You now have a closed system.
Water expands ~11% as it's heated.
Where does the expanded volume go? Out the TPRV in many cases hence we see them capped off.
Solution: install an expansion tank on the hot side. ( It would actually work on either side since they are both "within the system" so to speak.) Per Watts, the tanks are rated to 150 PSI & 200 degrees.

RE: Direct vent systems
This also comes into play at vent terminations near operable windows etc.
Per the manufacturers, the combustion is controlled due to the engineered co-axial vent systems that do not allow the production of CO so these systems may be vented near windows and since it's a "sealed combustions chamber" there is no ignitions source to consider for the typical garage installation.

This all assumes the systems are correctly installed of course!

Plumber Dude

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