ANSI # for non-elevated water heaters - InspectionNews

Matt Fellman · #1 (**permalink**) 06-10-2008, 03:29 PM

A couple weeks ago this topic went around and I got some info from a friend at the county inspection office that I wanted to pass along.

The tanks have to have this rating to be allowed to rest directly on a garage floor.

Z21.10.1

Billy Stephens · #2 (**permalink**) 06-10-2008, 03:51 PM

Thanks,
.
Z21.10.1

Michael Larson · #3 (**permalink**) 06-10-2008, 04:04 PM

A.O. Smith GVR 50 LINK

Consumer LINK

John Arnold · #4 (**permalink**) 06-10-2008, 05:08 PM

From the "Consumer LINK":

"If my water heater is not FVIR, do I need to purchase a new one? No. Your current water heater is a safe and efficient design." (my bold)

That's quite a statement, considering they don't know what my current water heater is.

Scott Patterson · #5 (**permalink**) 06-10-2008, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Fellman

A couple weeks ago this topic went around and I got some info from a friend at the county inspection office that I wanted to pass along.

The tanks have to have this rating to be allowed to rest directly on a garage floor.

Z21.10.1

Matt, that is for your area and that AHJ. It is different all around the country. Regardless of what the model of water heater many AHJ's require them to be elevated.

Matt Fellman · #6 (**permalink**) 06-10-2008, 05:29 PM

The way it was explained to me, this ANSI number meant it had been tested to be resistant to explosions due to low lying vapors. I'm not fully versed on the ANSI testing.

Is it national? After the testing is it then up to the AHJ whether or not to accept it?

Jerry Peck · #7 (**permalink**) 06-10-2008, 06:01 PM

(underlining is mine)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Fellman

The tanks have to have this rating to be allowed to rest directly on a garage floor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Fellman

Is it national? After the testing is it then up to the AHJ whether or not to accept it?

To some extent, yes.

However, based on that photo, they will accept anything.

There is no pan under the water heater.

The sediment trap is improper.

There is no secondary condensate drain line on the furnace (secondary opening is plugged with that red plug).

No auxiliary drain pan under the furnace which has condensate.

What is that the furnace is setting on? Concrete? Metal?

Scott Patterson · #8 (**permalink**) 06-10-2008, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Fellman

The way it was explained to me, this ANSI number meant it had been tested to be resistant to explosions due to low lying vapors. I'm not fully versed on the ANSI testing.

Is it national? After the testing is it then up to the AHJ whether or not to accept it?

ANSI is basically a testing/standards organization. It is kind of like a UL rating. Does not mean Diddly Squat to an AHJ. The AHJ should be relying on the various codes. Then we have the manufacturers standards and requirements for their product on top of everything else. IMHO, I think all water heaters need to be elevated 18" if they are in a garage or other similar location. What can it hurt?

Steve Lowery · #9 (**permalink**) 06-13-2008, 01:35 PM

It never occurred to me befor, but with HVAC equipment in the garage,how airtight are the panels on the return air panels on these
machines?
I don't remember any seal, and I think gasoline fumes could be circulated.
If concentrations could reach explosive levels (spills etc.) surely they could be drawn into the srtucture as well.

Jerry Peck · #10 (**permalink**) 06-13-2008, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Lowery

with HVAC equipment in the garage,how airtight are the panels on the return air panels on these machines?
I don't remember any seal, and I think gasoline fumes could be circulated.
If concentrations could reach explosive levels (spills etc.) surely they could be drawn into the srtucture as well.

That is one of the problems I've had with garage installations of AHU.

The other is energy efficiency (related to both the unconditioned space being around the unit and related to that unconditioned and contaminated air being drawn into the AHU).

Same applies to AHU in attics.

Steve Lowery · #11 (**permalink**) 06-14-2008, 10:37 AM

I think that the leakage regarding the unconditioned space affecting efficiency is miniscule but gasoline or other chemicals often don't require high concentrations to be a problem. If nothing else a stink.

Jerry Peck · #12 (**permalink**) 06-14-2008, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Lowery

I think that the leakage regarding the unconditioned space affecting efficiency is miniscule ...

Steve,

I could go back to when I was in business, heck, I could go back just a few days to when I helped another inspector, and show you photos of AHU after AHU which was not fully taped up or sealed (conduit entries, thermostat cable entires, other openings and entries) which had no attempt to seal them up by the installing HVAC contractor (new houses) or by the serving HVAC contractor (new and existing houses).

Combine that with the fact that the AHU itself if not in 75 degree conditioned space but is in 95+ degree unconditioned garage and that is a lot of extra Btus which need to be conditioned.

Brandon Whitmore · #13 (**permalink**) 06-14-2008, 12:46 PM

Jerry,

What's wrong with the sediment trap.

Also, to answer Matt's question since we are in the same area-- the furnace is resting on metal, not wood.

Jerry Peck · #14 (**permalink**) 06-14-2008, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore

What's wrong with the sediment trap.

The gas line should come down vertically, enter the tee for the sediment trap, the sediment trap is installed up into the bottom of the tee, with the gas line being connected to the side outlet of the tee.

That way, the debris in the gas stream is blown into, falls into by gravity, the sediment trap at the bottom of the tee.

As shown, the gas and debris blows over the top of the sediment trap leg, with little, if any, debris settling out of the gas stream down into the sediment trap.

Brandon Whitmore · #15 (**permalink**) 06-14-2008, 01:05 PM

Thanks for answering.

I thought that with gas being under low pressure, that the debris would likely stick along the bottom of the pipe and drop into the trap.

Is there a code reference I can cite, or is this best practice?

Jerry Peck · #16 (**permalink**) 06-14-2008, 05:51 PM

From the IRC Commentary:
(From the IRC)

G2419.4 (408.4) Sediment trap. Where a sediment trap is not incorporated as a part of the gas utilization equipment, a sediment trap shall be installed downstream of the equipment shut-off valve as close to the inlet of the equipment as practical. The sediment trap shall be either a tee fitting with a capped nipple in the bottom opening of the run of the tee or other device approved as an effective sediment trap. Illuminating appliances, ranges, clothes dryers, and outdoor grills need not be so equipped.

(Commentary)
❖ In addition to the code requirement, most appliance manufacturers require the installation of a sediment trap (dirt leg) to protect the appliance from debris in the gas. Sediment traps are necessary to protect appliance gas controls from the dirt, soil, pipe chips, pipe joint tapes and compounds, and construction site debris that enters the piping during installation and repairs. Hazardous appliance operation could result from debris entering gas controls and burners. Despite the fact that utilities supply clean gas, debris can enter the piping prior to and during installation on the utility side of the system and on the customer side.

Sediment traps are designed to cause the gas flow to change direction 90 degrees at the sediment collection point, thus causing the solid or liquid contaminants to drop out of the gas flow. See Commentary Figure G2419.4(1).
sediment_trap_IRC_Commentary.jpg
The nipple and cap must not be placed in the branch opening of a tee fitting, because this would not create a change in direction of flow and would allow debris to pass over the collection point. Commentary Figure G2419.4(2)
sediment_trap_Prohibited_IRC_Commentary.JPG
illustrates an improper sediment trap that is prohibited by this section. The code does not specify a minimum length for the capped nipple. Three inches minimum is customary. The sediment trap must be downstream of the appliance shutoff valve and as close to the appliance inlet as practical. Requiring the sediment trap to be downstream of the appliance shutoff valve makes sure that the sediment trap is within 6 feet of the appliance inlet. If there is 6 feet or less of piping between a sediment trap and the appliance inlet served, the intent of the code has been met, regardless of the shutoff valve location. Manufactured sediment traps are available that have the configuration of a straight section of pipe and are equipped with cleanout openings. Although it would be wise to install sediment traps at all appliance connections, they are not mandated by code for gas lights, ranges, clothes dryers, and outdoor grills. These appliances are susceptible to harm from debris in gas, especially ranges and clothes dryers, and the appliance manufacturer may require sediment traps where the code does not. The code.s logic is that these appliances are attended while in use therefore, the user would be aware of a problem.

Ted Menelly · #17 (**permalink**) 06-14-2008, 06:07 PM

I have inspected hundreds of homes every year for the past 4 years that I have lived in Texas. I could probably think hard enough to tell you how many sediment traps I have seen. Literally almost none with the exception of some brand new homes lately and a few existing homes. I would be curious about other Texas inspectors or anyone for that matter if you are finding the same thing.

Thanks

Ted

Brandon Whitmore · #18 (**permalink**) 06-14-2008, 11:39 PM

Jerry,

Thanks for taking all of the time to post that info. I'll just be called more of a deal killer now.

Have the code's changed much over the years as far as the configuration of the sediment trap?

Many of the older ones are located on the wrong side of the valve, etc. Are they required to be moved/ installed on the proper side (appliance) of the valve during appliance replacement?

Jim Luttrall · #19 (**permalink**) 06-15-2008, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

I have inspected hundreds of homes every year for the past 4 years that I have lived in Texas. I could probably think hard enough to tell you how many sediment traps I have seen. Literally almost none with the exception of some brand new homes lately and a few existing homes. I would be curious about other Texas inspectors or anyone for that matter if you are finding the same thing.

Thanks

Ted

Ted, this subject has come up often and the answer is always a resounding, yes. It seems that all pipe is clean and all gas is dry in Texas

, and since Texas was once and independent nation, then the National codes don't apply here.