I inspected a vacant house in the country, outside the area of city inspectors. The house is well built however in one bathroom I kept smelling something like smell of sewer gas. I took this photo in that bathroom. Look at the angle of the condensate drain line. Looks like the angle has created it's own "trap". I think the only way this could drain is if enough water-weight in the condensate drain coming from the attic could push the water in this "trap" into the drain. I thnk this must be where the smell is coming from. What do you guys think ?

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The hose can/will act as a trap all the way up to the hose bend. The other part is that it can also act as a siphon to suck the p-trap dry. My guess is that's why it smells.

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Accurate Inspections & Consulting, Inc.
773/844-4AIC
Markus Keller

First and foremost ... you are not allowed to drain condensate to a sink trap.

Second, *and if you were to do it - which is against code*, that is completely the wrong way to do it.

Being as it is against code, there is no "right way" to do it ...

But ... at least if ... the condensate drain line exited the wall above the connection to the trap, and if ... the connection to the tail piece were made with the type used for dishwashers to connect to the tail pieces ... at least then it would not be *as bad* as it is now.

But it would still be "not right".

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )

Where does it say that directly Mr Jerry. I just don't see it, first and foremost???

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Ted Menelly
"Castle"
Home Inspection Services

Jerry, it is connected to the sink side of the drain. I see the only problem is the incoming condensate drain is lower than the connect to the sink side of the drain. Am I missing something ? Thanks, Gene

Michael,

*Someone* *always* posts that drawing, taken from Code Check as though it was cast in stone and placed on the mountain with no chance of being wrong, when this question comes up. However, like other errors found in Code Check ... it *is* wrong.

We have been over this *MANY TIMES*, and, if needed, I will post the code ... again ... but ...

... I am sure there are others here who have paid attention and know exactly what code I am going to post ... so I will give them the chance before I post it.

Hint, it is in P2706 of the 2003 and 2006 IRC.

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )

Not sure what to say...I have seen hundreds of homes with condensate drains going into the sink drain and no doubt there are 10's of 1000's of homes here in the Dallas Fort Worth area with a sink connection and more being built every day since this area is growing so fast. Condensate to sink connections are a common practice here. That doesn't make it right though but it is approved as a connecton on a daily basis here. I looked in 2003 IRC and did not see the reference but maybe I missed it. I am not saying I am right. I am just wondering how so many connections are made like this if it is against code.

Thanks

Gene

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IRC2003 P2706.3 Prohibited waste receptors. Plumbing fixtures that are used for domestic or culinary purposes shall not be used to receive the discharge of an indirect line.

Exceptions

1. A kitchen sink trap is acceptable for the use as a receptor for a dishwasher.

2. A laundry tray is acceptable for use as a receptor for a clothes washing machine.
.

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It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie!
Billy J. Stephens HI Service
Memphis TN.

Jerry,

I never see this arrangement in my area.
We have basements and the AC drains to the floor drain.

That being said this configuration seems common in many areas as reported by other inspectors.

If I have missed something please explain. Always trying to learn.

Billy did the honors.

From the 2003 IRC.
P2706.3 Prohibited waste receptors. Plumbing fixtures that are used for domestic or culinary purposes shall not be used to receive the discharge of an indirect line.
Exceptions
1. A kitchen sink trap is acceptable for the use as a receptor for a dishwasher.
2. A laundry tray is acceptable for use as a receptor for a clothes washing machine.

From the 2006 IRC.

P2706.3 Prohibited waste receptors.

Exceptions:

1. A kitchen sink trap is acceptable for use as a receptor for a dishwasher.
2. A laundry tray is acceptable for use as a receptor for a clothes washing machine.

Indirect wastes, of which a/c condensate is one, are *prohibited* from being discharged into a plumbing fixture used for domestic or culinary purposes, i.e., bathroom sinks, kitchen sinks, laundry sinks, and the like ... *except for* those two very specific exceptions:
- 1) a dishwasher into a kitchen sink trap
- 2) a clothes washer into a laundry tray

Even the two exceptions are not allowed to receive the discharge of a/c condensate.

Gene,

"That doesn't make it right though but it is approved "

It is not approved, it is either "ignored" based on ignorance of the code prohibiting same, or the code inspectors simply are not aware that prohibition exists ... ummmm ... those two things are pretty much saying the same thing, aren't they?

Kind of like the example I use frequently - people drive 80 mph on I-95 without getting stopped for speeding, happens 100's of thousands of times a day, does that mean that driving 80 mph on I-95 is "approved"? Nope, means it is still "wrong".

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )

It is in fact an ignorant code. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Neither the kitchen sink draining or the AC condesation draining into the same line has absolutely no affect on the other. Both are trapped, both are vented.

Let me see. Because there is not an exception for this to be "OK" then it must be an absolute no, no. Even though there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. There is not a good argument, at all, for not allowing it.

1. A kitchen sink trap is acceptable for use as a receptor for a dishwasher.
2. A laundry tray is acceptable for use as a receptor for a clothes washing machine."

Please. These items are acceptable but a condensate drain line is not. Like I said no good argument for it.

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Ted Menelly
"Castle"
Home Inspection Services

Being in the Dallas area myself I see it as such too everyday but I keep consistantly writing it up as wrong and recommending repair. Not one HVAC contractor has ever called me telling me its acceptable and everyone of them has agreed to install the condensate trap at the equipment.

Those old school HVAC guys will never change their ways and are teaching the new techs that work for them the wrong methods everyday.

rick

No, the code is not ignorant, those who refuse to do as the code states are ignorant, as are inspectors who try to insist that there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Based on 'Because I've done it that way for eons.' (eons usually equals "30 years")

Guess you've never seen the crud and bacteria laden crap which blocks and clogs up a/c condensate lines, then?

No, not because there is no exception for it, but because of the reason, science, and sanitation behind there being no exception to it.

There goes that ignorant inspector/contractor talk again, 'I always see it done this way', and/or 'I've always done it this way'.

*YOU* may not see any good argument to keep that bacteria laden crud and crap out of *YOUR* sinks tailpiece, either in the bathroom, the kitchen or laundry room, where it can contaminate the tail pieces, traps, and water into which *you* brush *your* teeth, *you* prepare *your* food, and *you* wash *your* clothes, but please allow the rest of us to use better sanitary conditions and reasoning.

I mean, after all, why have sanitary sewers at all ... many parts of the world get along just fine without them, with sewage running down the middle of the streets and all ... sounds like that might just be your ideal place to live?

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )

One argument for not using waste plumbing is waste water treatment. Even though it is only a few pints of water per A/C, multiply it by several hundred thousand and it becomes significant. Waste treatment plants are already stressed.

I see them plumbed to stacks in the attic all the time and have to guess at where they go. Some I am sure go to the clothes washer drain. My plumber neighbor told me they have only recently been prohibited from using the waste plumbing to dispose of condensate in this area.

The one thing I see as a code violation is double trapping, and in the case pictured triple trap. I don't understand the reason double traps are not allowed, just know there not! Anyone know the reason?

Now Jerry

Now you are getting to personal Jerry.

You act as if I called you ignorant. Just the code not you. But with that being said and a straight attack back directly and personally to me I guess now I have that wonderful reason to maybe include you in that remark.

That was truly ignorant on your behalf. The code book is not yours and you did not right it. "The code book says it ain't right" Where would you drain this crud Jerry???? Not to the exterior I hope.

Constant use of the kitchen sink and drain is not going to allow all that nasty stuff to build up in the drain. No more than rotten garbage from the disposal and dishwasher. Just think of all that nasty crud gathering all those germs and bacteria. I am surprised that it does not crawl right out of the kitchen sink and strangle you. Oh, sorry, you must be one of those that disinfects you sink and bath drains everyday.

Your nasty hands are leaving more disgusting germs and such just from washing/rinsing them off after using the facilities or just from being out in the outside world for a short period of time.

Jerry, if that nasty crud you are talking about is so bad do you think you could have central AC anyway. All that nasty stuff sitting in a trap and then the AHU going on and sucking some of this wonderful stuff up and blowing it around your home.

I know you live and die by the code but it does not mean it is always the best way. I wonder how many folks got sick and or died from all the nasty stuff they have been letting run into the drains for decades, and still continue to do it. I suppose some test has been done some where to give the argument to another that it has been tested and found to contribute to anything at all to do with anyones health.

OOOOps, there is that mold is gold thing. Another home test for inspectors. Just like the radon in counter tops. No conclusive tests that make it announced to be actually bad for anyone. You are going to get more bad stuff sucked into you and on you in one use of a public restroom than you are to get from a condensation water in a bathroom drain line in a year.

You made yourself sound like, "If it is written, It is good"

Yup Jerry. Most folks use some type of bleach cleaning product on there sinks weekly at least anyway. If not then you are touting your filth story to folks that just don't care about cleanliness which in that case is not going to add to there crud anyway.

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Ted Menelly
"Castle"
Home Inspection Services

Years ago (the old Standard codes and others) allowed, and specifically stated, that the condensate could be connected to the sanitary sewer system through an indirect waster receptor (an air gap), however, connecting the condensate into the sanitary waste piping is still not the same as connecting the condensate into the fixture (on the fixture side of the trap).

Now, though (with the ICC codes), that connection is no longer an option, as your plumber neighbor pointed out.

From the 1997 Standard Mechanical Code: (underlining is mine)
- M304.8.3 CONDENSATE DISPOSAL PLACE. Condensate from all cooling coils or evaporators shall be piped from the drip pan outlet to a suitable disposal place where it will not cause a nuisance as follows:
- - 1. Units larger than 3 tons (10.6 kW) nominal capacity shall drain to a sanitary sewer drain through an indirect waste, storm sewer drain or an approved French drain.
- - 2. Units 3 tons (10.6 kW) and smaller capacity may terminate in gutter or roof drain, on a concrete pad or other location subject to approval of the mechanical official.
- - 3. Condensate drains from rooftop units may spill on rooftop providing the condensate does not drain into a street or alley, or other areas of sufficient amount to be a menace.

If the unit was larger than 3 tons, which means quite a bit of condensate is being produced, rather than chance creating a nuisance with that condensate drainage to a walkway or other area, they were allowed to drain it to the sanitary sewer.

Of course, though, as you pointed out, that put *a lot* of extra water into the water treatment plants. That is no longer allowed.

The traps are required to be within a specified maximum distance from the fixture outlet, close enough where the water speed and flow is sufficient to go through the trap. Adding a second trap downstream from the first trap would reduce and restrict the flow of water because the water speed and flow would be (would potentially be) insufficient to properly flush the waste through the second trap.

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, L