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  1. #1
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    Default Would inspectors care about "defects" that are not subjectable to tests?

    I have a unique situation and would like opinions from the inspector.

    By trade I am a structural engineer and am familiar with construction practices and code.

    I am looking at a property for purchase, it is a REO property offered by Fannie Mae, the property has been renovated by the previous owner.

    Because of my background, I typically look a bit closer to many things during my visit. I would look under the sinks at drain connections, electrical panel etc...and I saw a bunch of things that alarmed me - kitchen drain connection using 1" PVC pipe, yes 1". A couple of places where drains were held together with hose clamps, and I don't mean Fernco transition coupling, I mean some soft hose sleeves with clamps. New outlets in baths and kitchen not GFCI, and no GFCI breakers to those either. But these didn't bother me too much as they are all easy fixes and would be all identified in the inspection reports later on should we strike a deal. But what it did was to set off an alarm that perhaps there may have been things of this nature not visibly evident behind walls they did that was substandard and worse yet, unsafe.

    The house is two story. On one side is a living room where it has the high ceiling. On the other side no high ceiling, upstairs bedrooms, bathrooms, and below that the kitchen, bedroom, half bath and stairwell. Here is the strange part.

    I was standing in the living room with the high ceiling where I can see all the way up, and of course I can also see the side wall of the second floor right above the kitchen. That side wall runs 24' long and has no support underneath. The kitchen is right below it. I thought at the moment, this is odd, this doesn't look right, do they have a steel beam going across or what?

    However despite all that, I end up submitting an offer to Fannie Mae, and right now I am waiting for them to decide.

    Meanwhile, the substandard plumbing, electrical work continued to bother me, but not as much as the "hanging" second floor. I decided to visit the building department of the city and said I am an investor looking to buy the property and would like to know everything is in order, permits, plans etc...and for $25 they gave me copies of permits and all plans.

    They did not pull any permit for any of that renovation work.

    Worse yet, there used to be a load bearing wall on the side of the kitchen supporting the edge of the second floor. That wall has been completely removed, resulting in an open kitchen. Along the footprint of the wall is now a 15' long kitchen island. They even moved the sink from one wall to the island, which leads me to wonder, given the bad plumbing connections I could see, if they even knew how to vent an island drain with a loop vent. Highly doubtful.

    Now to my question. If the deal do go forward, and I need to inspect the property, will the inspector note the removal of a load bearing wall in the inspection report?

    Nothing has collapsed. There is no visible deflection that I can see. I have original plans showing a load bearing wall there. I have a list of permit summaries showing NO permit has been pulled since the original construction since 1980 except for a fence. They removed a wall, moved a sink from one wall to an island, moved a water heater from the old kitchen to a hallway closet, redid wiring in kitchen and bath without any GFCI protection...If I show the inspector these plans will he/she take them into account? Or will an inspector simply test faucets, flush toilet, test AC etc etc etc?

    Is an illegal and unsafe renovation a defect considered by an inspector? Or is it a separate that must be raised by a buyer?

    I am well aware there are other ramifications - if I buy it I inherit the problem, and if I don't rectify it and submit new plans etc...I may be in a bad situation if I decide to sell, then a potential buyer would be asking the questions I am asking now.

    My best scenerio is still to buy the property, but given this major issue, I would like the seller to discount the property by an amount required to remedy these defects.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Would inspectors care about "defects" that are not subjectable to tests?

    It all depends on what type of inspector you hire.
    Having been in the trades my whole life, the framing scenario you describe would be something I would notice immediately. It would be something I would hammer pretty hard in my report. I also know other inspectors who know buildings well enough to see these types of conditions and report them.
    However, there are also lots of crappy checkbox inspectors who wouldn't see a problem if it hit them in the head.
    My suggestion is you look for an inspector in your area who posts on IN, ask what his construction background is, and don't hire the el cheapo guys who give you the report at the end of a 1 hour complete house inspection.

    www.aic-chicago.com
    773/844-4AIC
    "The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Would inspectors care about "defects" that are not subjectable to tests?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miamicuse View Post
    I have a unique situation and would like opinions from the inspector.

    By trade I am a structural engineer and am familiar with construction practices and code.

    I am looking at a property for purchase, it is a REO property offered by Fannie Mae, the property has been renovated by the previous owner.

    Because of my background, I typically look a bit closer to many things during my visit. I would look under the sinks at drain connections, electrical panel etc...and I saw a bunch of things that alarmed me - kitchen drain connection using 1" PVC pipe, yes 1". A couple of places where drains were held together with hose clamps, and I don't mean Fernco transition coupling, I mean some soft hose sleeves with clamps. New outlets in baths and kitchen not GFCI, and no GFCI breakers to those either. But these didn't bother me too much as they are all easy fixes and would be all identified in the inspection reports later on should we strike a deal. But what it did was to set off an alarm that perhaps there may have been things of this nature not visibly evident behind walls they did that was substandard and worse yet, unsafe.

    The house is two story. On one side is a living room where it has the high ceiling. On the other side no high ceiling, upstairs bedrooms, bathrooms, and below that the kitchen, bedroom, half bath and stairwell. Here is the strange part.

    I was standing in the living room with the high ceiling where I can see all the way up, and of course I can also see the side wall of the second floor right above the kitchen. That side wall runs 24' long and has no support underneath. The kitchen is right below it. I thought at the moment, this is odd, this doesn't look right, do they have a steel beam going across or what?

    However despite all that, I end up submitting an offer to Fannie Mae, and right now I am waiting for them to decide.

    Meanwhile, the substandard plumbing, electrical work continued to bother me, but not as much as the "hanging" second floor. I decided to visit the building department of the city and said I am an investor looking to buy the property and would like to know everything is in order, permits, plans etc...and for $25 they gave me copies of permits and all plans.

    They did not pull any permit for any of that renovation work.

    Worse yet, there used to be a load bearing wall on the side of the kitchen supporting the edge of the second floor. That wall has been completely removed, resulting in an open kitchen. Along the footprint of the wall is now a 15' long kitchen island. They even moved the sink from one wall to the island, which leads me to wonder, given the bad plumbing connections I could see, if they even knew how to vent an island drain with a loop vent. Highly doubtful.

    Now to my question. If the deal do go forward, and I need to inspect the property, will the inspector note the removal of a load bearing wall in the inspection report?

    Nothing has collapsed. There is no visible deflection that I can see. I have original plans showing a load bearing wall there. I have a list of permit summaries showing NO permit has been pulled since the original construction since 1980 except for a fence. They removed a wall, moved a sink from one wall to an island, moved a water heater from the old kitchen to a hallway closet, redid wiring in kitchen and bath without any GFCI protection...If I show the inspector these plans will he/she take them into account? Or will an inspector simply test faucets, flush toilet, test AC etc etc etc?

    Is an illegal and unsafe renovation a defect considered by an inspector? Or is it a separate that must be raised by a buyer?

    I am well aware there are other ramifications - if I buy it I inherit the problem, and if I don't rectify it and submit new plans etc...I may be in a bad situation if I decide to sell, then a potential buyer would be asking the questions I am asking now.

    My best scenerio is still to buy the property, but given this major issue, I would like the seller to discount the property by an amount required to remedy these defects.
    You know this type of situation is exactly why I have in my contract the following: "Your inspector is not "Superman" We can not see through the walls, underground, or predict the future.

    If the inspector does not know that a supporting wall was removed then he can not report on it. You did not know untill you went to the city and had the plans/permits pulled. Now if you show the inspector the plans, etc it will be up to them as to how and what they feel comfortable reporting on.

    Most or the vast majority of the home inspectors do not report on structural defects, they might say that it does not look correct and you need to have a PE take a look or something like that. Now on the other hand, I have reported on missing load bearing walls when I found evidence of them being removed and problems were showing up because of it.

    It sounds like what you really need is a forensic type of inspection that will be over and well beyond a normal home inspection for a person buying a home. Even though you are a PE with construction knowledge, defect recognition is a skill that is learned over time and with experience.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Would inspectors care about "defects" that are not subjectable to tests?

    Miamicuse,

    You might have difficulty getting responses from inspectors when you are using an alias. We are in a difficult business and are regularly subject to lawsuits. Most of us tend to prefer to know to whom we are addressing.

    A home inspection is a visual process and if there is no specific clue of a defect (cracks, sagging, deflection), a home inspector is not likely to make a comment or recommendation.

    You already have knowledge about a potential defect and, in my opinion, have a responsibility to let a home inspector know about your concern. Since you have knowledge beyond that of a home inspector, you already know there is a problem and should be thinking about hiring a PE that specializes in forensic work. However, as has been said, destructive testing would be necessary to determine if that wall had been properly supported and this is beyond the scope of a home inspection. At best, you would get a deferral to an engineer.

    Department of Redundancy Department
    http://www.FullCircleInspect.com/

  5. #5
    Miamicuse's Avatar
    Miamicuse Guest

    Default Re: Would inspectors care about "defects" that are not subjectable to tests?

    I knew from the plumbing and electrical work they did not pull permits. Those would have been illegal even back in 1980.

    I had a suspicion on the support. It looks odd. To me it looked like a rectangular table with three legs. I think any qualified person would say "hmmm...". The plans merely confirmed my suspicion.

    There is also no visible evidence that a wall has been replaced, no footprint in the floor (they re-tiled the floor), nothing on the ceiling (they build a little of a drop box at that spot and put in some hi-hat lights). No cracks in the ceiling or noticeable deflection from the ceiling above that suggests that there is an issue. So there is no "problem" to be seen.

    I am not asking an inspector to go outside of their list of things to check, or be a code compliance inspector. I guess if I were to point out the missing wall, and made available to the inspector a set of plans, would an inspector note this in their report? I don't know if something has been done behind the ceiling to account for the missing structural strength, I can't do that without some invasive procedure, and I doubt I would be allowed to do that, at the same time, based on the plumbing and electrical work, my guess is there is nothing done to account for that.

    Based on what I read here, I think it is probably an issue I need to take up with the seller separately, instead of trying to "roll in" with a normal inspection.


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Would inspectors care about "defects" that are not subjectable to tests?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miamicuse View Post
    I have a unique situation and would like opinions from the inspector.

    By trade I am a structural engineer and am familiar with construction practices and code.

    I am looking at a property for purchase, it is a REO property offered by Fannie Mae, the property has been renovated by the previous owner.

    Because of my background, I typically look a bit closer to many things during my visit. I would look under the sinks at drain connections, electrical panel etc...and I saw a bunch of things that alarmed me - kitchen drain connection using 1" PVC pipe, yes 1". A couple of places where drains were held together with hose clamps, and I don't mean Fernco transition coupling, I mean some soft hose sleeves with clamps. New outlets in baths and kitchen not GFCI, and no GFCI breakers to those either. But these didn't bother me too much as they are all easy fixes and would be all identified in the inspection reports later on should we strike a deal. But what it did was to set off an alarm that perhaps there may have been things of this nature not visibly evident behind walls they did that was substandard and worse yet, unsafe.

    The house is two story. On one side is a living room where it has the high ceiling. On the other side no high ceiling, upstairs bedrooms, bathrooms, and below that the kitchen, bedroom, half bath and stairwell. Here is the strange part.

    I was standing in the living room with the high ceiling where I can see all the way up, and of course I can also see the side wall of the second floor right above the kitchen. That side wall runs 24' long and has no support underneath. The kitchen is right below it. I thought at the moment, this is odd, this doesn't look right, do they have a steel beam going across or what?

    However despite all that, I end up submitting an offer to Fannie Mae, and right now I am waiting for them to decide.

    Meanwhile, the substandard plumbing, electrical work continued to bother me, but not as much as the "hanging" second floor. I decided to visit the building department of the city and said I am an investor looking to buy the property and would like to know everything is in order, permits, plans etc...and for $25 they gave me copies of permits and all plans.

    They did not pull any permit for any of that renovation work.

    Worse yet, there used to be a load bearing wall on the side of the kitchen supporting the edge of the second floor. That wall has been completely removed, resulting in an open kitchen. Along the footprint of the wall is now a 15' long kitchen island. They even moved the sink from one wall to the island, which leads me to wonder, given the bad plumbing connections I could see, if they even knew how to vent an island drain with a loop vent. Highly doubtful.

    Now to my question. If the deal do go forward, and I need to inspect the property, will the inspector note the removal of a load bearing wall in the inspection report?

    Nothing has collapsed. There is no visible deflection that I can see. I have original plans showing a load bearing wall there. I have a list of permit summaries showing NO permit has been pulled since the original construction since 1980 except for a fence. They removed a wall, moved a sink from one wall to an island, moved a water heater from the old kitchen to a hallway closet, redid wiring in kitchen and bath without any GFCI protection...If I show the inspector these plans will he/she take them into account? Or will an inspector simply test faucets, flush toilet, test AC etc etc etc?

    Is an illegal and unsafe renovation a defect considered by an inspector? Or is it a separate that must be raised by a buyer?

    I am well aware there are other ramifications - if I buy it I inherit the problem, and if I don't rectify it and submit new plans etc...I may be in a bad situation if I decide to sell, then a potential buyer would be asking the questions I am asking now.

    My best scenerio is still to buy the property, but given this major issue, I would like the seller to discount the property by an amount required to remedy these defects.
    So.....
    This home is the only home currently "For Sale" in Miami?
    You have already identified numerous negative factors that should be affecting your purchase decision and you are proceeding?
    Are you sure you are schooled in Engineering?
    Are you State licensed as a PE?


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Would inspectors care about "defects" that are not subjectable to tests?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miamicuse View Post
    But what it did was to set off an alarm that perhaps there may have been things of this nature not visibly evident behind walls they did that was substandard and worse yet, unsafe.
    When I see a bunch of monkey business I wonder the same thing and I don't hesitate letting my client know. I for one would very much like to have someone like you along on the inspection - for one thing there'd be two knowledgeable people doing the looking and two people always see more than one person.

    As for what might not be visible - it can be a gamble. Particularly when there's goofiness that you can see. Even the best of us can't give you much guidance with that. Sometimes that gut instinct comes in pretty handy.

    Eric Barker, ACI
    Lake Barrington, IL

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Would inspectors care about "defects" that are not subjectable to tests?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Hagarty View Post
    So.....
    This home is the only home currently "For Sale" in Miami?
    You have already identified numerous negative factors that should be affecting your purchase decision and you are proceeding?
    Are you sure you are schooled in Engineering?
    Are you State licensed as a PE?
    All homes are unique. There are aspects of this property that appeals to me such as location, school district, layout and other factors that are weighted against the negatives.

    Or may be I know for a fact that there are hidden treasure buried in the back yard.

    Yes these are negatives, but these are issues I know I can remedy. The harder part would be having to submit new revised plans to the city to "make it legal" without them asking me to tear it down.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Would inspectors care about "defects" that are not subjectable to tests?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miamicuse View Post
    However despite all that, I end up submitting an offer to Fannie Mae, and right now I am waiting for them to decide.

    If your contract hasn't been executed yet, you can withdraw your offer and simply walk away. Sounds like you have serious concerns, and remember you can't "see" what else has been screwed up (so to speak), so trust your judgment and cut your losses.

    Dom.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Would inspectors care about "defects" that are not subjectable to tests?

    You did not answer the questions....
    So...
    - This is the only home for sale
    - Ignorance will prevail and you will proceed
    - You are not schooled in Engineering
    - and you are not a PE

    Thanks,




  11. #11
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    Miamicuse Guest

    Default Re: Would inspectors care about "defects" that are not subjectable to tests?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Hagarty View Post
    You did not answer the questions....
    So...
    - This is the only home for sale
    - Ignorance will prevail and you will proceed
    - You are not schooled in Engineering
    - and you are not a PE

    Thanks,

    I don't see where this is going? Perhaps help me understand why you are asking these questions? I have no problem providing you with my PE license number via email if this is not a troll.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Would inspectors care about "defects" that are not subjectable to tests?

    My profile clearly indicates who I am...
    while...
    yours does not...

    If you are in need of an Inspector that will meet your needs / expectations at this specific location,
    I can provide you with qualified referrals...


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Would inspectors care about "defects" that are not subjectable to tests?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miamicuse View Post
    I think it is probably an issue I need to take up with the seller separately, instead of trying to "roll in" with a normal inspection.
    I believe you are thinking correctly.

    When hiring an inspector, think long and hard before hiring one claims to be a 'CMI" or "Certified Master Inspector" ... based on past experiences.

    I would address that major issue *before* bringing a highly qualified inspector - first get the owner/bank to agree to compensate you for this issue, if they will not, why spend the money for the inspector when you would not be willing to buy it anyway - unless you are willing to buy it anyway, in which case you should be willing to spend whatever it takes for the best inspector you can find - that will be money well spent.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Would inspectors care about "defects" that are not subjectable to tests?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I believe you are thinking correctly.

    When hiring an inspector, think long and hard before hiring one claims to be a 'CMI" or "Certified Master Inspector" ... based on past experiences.

    .
    And here I was going to refer this guy to you...



  15. #15
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    Default Re: Would inspectors care about "defects" that are not subjectable to tests?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Hagarty View Post
    And here I was going to refer this guy to you...
    Joe,

    You know better than to refer me; first, you know I no longer live down there, and that I am retired ... of course, though, I still do consulting and litigation work in addition to my code inspection work ... just no small things like that.

    Joe, you know I'm not saying that 'all' CMI are lacking, but if that is what they are relying on to promote themselves ... yeah, be careful, and you know that too. (You might not want to admit it, but I am sure you know it.)

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Would inspectors care about "defects" that are not subjectable to tests?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Joe,

    You know better than to refer me; first, you know I no longer live down there, and that I am retired ... of course, though, I still do consulting and litigation work in addition to my code inspection work ... just no small things like that.

    Joe, you know I'm not saying that 'all' CMI are lacking, but if that is what they are relying on to promote themselves ... yeah, be careful, and you know that too. (You might not want to admit it, but I am sure you know it.)
    I only refer those that I personally know or have observed their work.
    I have many Family Members in the Miami / Dade / Fort Lauderdale area.
    They have used Inspectors that they have been more than happy with who presented a decent level of reporting ( I had reviewed the reports).

    I would not exclusively refer a CMI just as I would not generically refer an ASHI Inspector.


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Would inspectors care about "defects" that are not subjectable to tests?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Hagarty View Post
    just as I would not generically refer an ASHI Inspector.
    I fully agree with you.

    I do believe we are on the same page again (as we have been before).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Would inspectors care about "defects" that are not subjectable to tests?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Hagarty View Post
    .
    My profile clearly indicates who I am...
    ..
    .
    Is That You Mr Dryer Vent ?
    .Site mrdryervent.com

    Last edited by Billy Stephens; 02-04-2012 at 08:31 PM.
    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Would inspectors care about "defects" that are not subjectable to tests?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    .
    Is That You Mr Dryer Vent ?
    .
    You can correct me if I am wrong (since you think you have been here longer than I...)

    Is there a Rule that an Inspector posting on this website may not own and/or operate another Business independent of Home Inspection?

    Since you found a link and connection, there is nothing hidden...

    but...
    I do know there are no PE's in Florida named Miamicuse...


    Last edited by Joseph Hagarty; 02-04-2012 at 08:11 PM.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Would inspectors care about "defects" that are not subjectable to tests?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Hagarty View Post
    You can correct me if I am wrong (since you think you have been here longer than I...)

    Is there a Rule that an Inspector posting on this website may not own and/or operate another Business?
    .
    No Rule at all Joe. Site mrdryervent.com

    In these times any Honest Business is Good Business.

    I remember Cross Posting with a Mr Dryer Vent ( or some such name ) in the Past'

    No need to get touchy.

    Hope The Mr Dryer Vent Video has been updated to remove some of the confusion.
    .

    Last edited by Billy Stephens; 02-04-2012 at 08:30 PM. Reason: added link
    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Would inspectors care about "defects" that are not subjectable to tests?


  22. #22
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    Default Re: Would inspectors care about "defects" that are not subjectable to tests?

    OK I am getting a strange vibe here.

    I assume this is probably a forum for mostly the inspector professionals, sorry for the intrusion. I am going to bail out. I appreciate all those who provided constructive comments.


  23. #23
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    Default Re: Would inspectors care about "defects" that are not subjectable to tests?

    Not an Intrusion.
    Hire an Inspector if you choose to proceed.
    Disclose to the Inspector that you are a PE with additional expectations.
    It should not be a problem..
    I have done Inspections that meet and exceed what you are looking for.
    I see no reason why others would not also....


  24. #24
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    Default Re: Would inspectors care about "defects" that are not subjectable to tests?

    Miamicuse,
    The price you offer for the property is based on what you see/know or what you do not know.
    Bearing wall removed. Bad plumbing. Electrical screwed up. Unknown/unseen issues. All should be reflective in the offer. Putting back what previous owner removed or has altered is just a mater of labor and material. When you buy it you inherit everything in the deal.

    Being a SE you can supply a list of what is wrong with the property as rational for your offer. Seller accepts or rejects. That's the real estate game. Maybe what you need is a good contractor to go through and work up the list of repairs and their costs. If he is good he will be able to anticipate the unseen by what he does see. At time a good contractor is some what psychic.


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