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  1. #1
    Ryan Star's Avatar
    Ryan Star Guest

    Default Roof Vent Question

    What would you say is occurring in this picture? Staining or rotting? Note that the vent plate was recently attached to re secure it to the roof, under the plate is more of the issue.

    Is this rotting or staining?



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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Roof Vent Question

    Moisture is going to lead to staining and delamination and rot, if it's not already.


  3. #3
    Stephen G's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roof Vent Question

    Looks like its charring, what is that vent. Looks like it was just replaced, wonder what it looked like before the insp. Screwed up from the inside, so much is wrong in that photo...


  4. #4
    Don Burbach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roof Vent Question

    To the OP, please give us more context for your picture in order to get a focused answer. What is the vent used for? Why was it refastened? Why does the vent look mangled? What does the rest of the sheathing look like? Are you an inspector? Your house? The house your buying? What's the age of the roof? Roof material? Who re-attached the vent plate? What was his/her feeling?

    Playing a guessing game without collaborating evidence or knowledge won't help you much to get a solid answer. If you're shopping for a second-opinion, what was the first opinion? The sheathing looks like it is delaminating or flaking, which is way beyond staining in the hierarchy of issues.

    The bottomline is: A qualified contractor should evaluate the area and make the needed repairs.

    When it walks like a duck, smells like a duck, quakes like a duck...... it is likely a duck!


  5. #5
    Ryan Star's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roof Vent Question

    Thanks everyone for your input. So here is the whole story...

    I had an inspection done on new house here and the unreported findings that I have a problem with are found here in this pics (taken from the report I got):




    Three issues found, two with the roof vent pipes there and one with water on the floor in the basement. No where in the report did it say anything about roof staining or, what appeared/appears to me to be the underside of my roof rotting and thus the vent plate detatching and falling down.

    So we moved forward with the purchase of the house and shortly after moving in I had my brother in law (who does construction) climb into the attic to reattach the vents, and he was greeted with this. One vent down, the (I'm calling it rotting) so bad the screws detatched holding up the plate came undone). The other was loose and at a down slope of the tube mid section it was full of ice.

    So naturally I complained to the inspection company. Below is the email chain which I have blanked out personal information:

    From: Me
    Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 12:33 PM
    To: (leaving their email address out of it, but their general email address here)
    Subject: Inspection (home address)

    Attached are two pictures of the inspection report picture page in which you can clearly see for one of the vents on the roof having mold. The other vent tube hole to the roof (which you cannot see the roof vent hole pictured but it is clearly visible when looking up at the roof from the access hole when the inspector took the pictures) is more rotted with mold. So basically two vents have the issue.

    This mold was not noted anywhere in the inspection report done by XXX even though you can clearly see the one roof vent in the picture having it.

    Obviously I am very unhappy something so obvious was missed and I would like some sort of compensation for this for the impending repair that we now have to make at our cost.

    Please call me on my cell at XXX-XXX-XXXX for any questions.

    Thanks
    Me

    *************************************

    From: Company owner name
    Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 9:11 PM
    To: Me
    Subject: Attic moisture Staining

    Hi Me, I have looked at the report and talked to my inspector about this situation. The staining around the vent pipe I am seeing in the picture that Kevin had in the report is a very common occurrence in attics. This is something we see every day that is not a big concern. There doesn?t appear to be any rotted decking just moisture deterioration. The vents need to be sealed better to prevent more deterioration but there is no need to do anything to the areas since they are in the attic and nobody will be in contact with the surfaces. I have to disagree with you saying that he missed this when the picture in the report shows that Kevin clearly didn?t miss it. The extent of deterioration in his opinion was not large enough to make it a main concern. I don?t feel that we have any liability in this matter.


    Regards,

    Company owner
    Owner
    Inspection company name

    ************************************************** ***8

    I have sent numerous follow up emails to this person to discuss it further with no further communication. So before I take this further I wanted opinions on what (if any) leg I had to stand on here.

    Bottom line is the inspector took the picture and you can CLEARLY see a dark spot there, but he made no mention of it in the report nor investigated it further. To me, I am at least entitled to a refund.

    Am I off base?


  6. #6
    Ryan Star's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roof Vent Question

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    I think you are off base not being forthcoming on the orignal post, having posted it in a technical area for Inspectors, when you are not.

    I am doubtful regarding the completeness of the story you have now chosen to share. However, from what you have shared, it appears you failed to follow-up on what was reported and pictured in the in$pection report and complete your due diligence, i.e. exploring the concerns with a contractor, further investigate, etc.. From the photos you supplied and details of your latest disclosure, you did nothing about the issues, moved in during the heating season, neglected to rectifiy the venting deficiencies, further produced copious amounts of moisture in your daily living activities, and dumped substantial moisture into the attic cavity via the deficient venting and negligently contributed further to the situation, and possibly further allowed a pathway for moisture from the exterior (heat escape, melting snow, ice, rain, etc. to enter the home.

    Expect this topic discussion to be moved to the "Questions from Home Owners, Home Buyers and DIYers" non-technical forum area, where it should have been posted in the first place.
    I posted just the pic alone in the OP so as to just get a gut reaction from folks as to what the issue was without the "story" coming into play. In other words a non biased opinion.

    And I apologize for posting this in the wrong section...move away.

    And lastly yes the story I have given is complete.

    By the way...how would I be in neglect here when all that was noted in the inspection report was "bath exhaust unattached"? And if you read the response from the inspection owner he says he obviously saw the "staining" yet did not report it. The whole point of an inspection is for a professional to TELL you what is a concern and what is not. His note says nothing more then it is not attached.

    Oh and lastly, there has been no copious amount of moisture dumped into the attic...though I love your use of the word there lol. The vent was reattached the day we moved in (see OP pic). While I appreciate your opinion, you got a little off base there describing my "negligence" when I have done none

    Last edited by Ryan Star; 03-18-2012 at 09:32 PM.

  7. #7
    Don Burbach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roof Vent Question

    I agree with HG

    Details are missing.... age of house, general condition of the house, location in attic where the issues are located, condition of the roof, etc. and more etc. Most of these items were unknowns that I pointed out in my original post before this revelation.

    Home inspectors may not get to see various areas of the attic because of inaccessibility, no deck planking, etc.

    Freely giving advice here to a post with facts that turn out to be cherry-picked sometimes baits our eagerness to help. If an inspection points out a defect that is one defect out of forty(or even if we miss an issue), and a repair of that issue is more complex and difficult than expected, it may be unfair to crucify when taken out of context(my original thoughts!!!!!). This is especially true when the root cause was identified as a defect. EX: House needs roof, and the sheathing was decayed because the roof leaked!). We have a couple of hours to figure out the issues that have taken many years to evolve.

    I'm with HG, though, but, I'm not sure if this post shouldn't be removed as being disingenuous from the start and mis-categorized. While, I'm not questioning the motives of the OP, I do note that the latest reply occurred after a gap of a few days after I suggested that more info was needed for a more focused answer. Hence, I am concluding that the sum of the direction of the thread is tainted.

    Last edited by Don Burbach; 03-18-2012 at 09:29 PM. Reason: Reading clarity

  8. #8
    Ryan Star's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roof Vent Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Burbach View Post
    I agree with HG

    Details are missing.... age of house, general condition of the house, location in attic where the issues are located, condition of the roof, etc. and more etc. Most of these items were unknowns that I pointed out in my original post before this revelation.

    Home inspectors may not get to see various areas of the attic because of inaccessibility, no deck planking, etc.

    Freely giving advice here to a post with facts that turn out to be cherry-picked sometimes baits our eagerness to help. If an inspection points out a defect that is one defect out of forty(or even if we miss an issue), and a repair of that issue is more complex and difficult than expected, it may be unfair to crucify when taken out of context(my original thoughts!!!!!). This is especially true when the root cause was identified as a defect. EX: House needs roof, and the sheathing was decayed because the roof leaked!). We have a couple of hours to figure out the issues that have taken many years to evolve.

    I'm with HG, though, but, I'm not sure if this post shouldn't be removed as being disingenuous from the start and mis-categorized. While, I'm not questioning the motives of the OP, I do note that the latest reply occurred after a gap of a few days after I suggested that more info was needed for a more focused answer. Hence, I am concluding that the sum of the direction of the thread is tainted.
    Understood...I originally had the notion of just posting a close up pic of the issue (since the inspection pic is so far away and not clear) to just get a 'what do you see here' opinion. Clearly that was the wrong way too approach this...sorry all.

    And I haven't replied in a couple days as I have been intensely busy at work.


  9. #9
    Ryan Star's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roof Vent Question

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Your failure to read and comprehend what was reported to the limitations of the report itself, failure to address issues raised in the report, all failures upon you not the inspector nor the inspection firm, as YOU have presented the story, which is limited and lacking in details, however by your own words, admissions, the failures are (still) on your end.
    Thanks HG, your opinion is noted.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Roof Vent Question

    Ryan,

    Sorry you had to be on the receiving end of such ill-deserved abuse as you have gotten. Watson is known as a bully around here. I'm not familiar with Don Burbach, but saying he's "not sure if this post shouldn't be removed as being disingenuous from the start" is a ridiculous and unfounded accusation. You have been very tolerant.

    Watson and Burbach, he asked a simple bloody question. When told he should supply particulars, he did. So he didn't post in the right spot, big deal. Try to control your paranoia and not make false assumptions.

    Do not think of knocking out another person's brains because he differs in opinion from you. It would be as rational to knock yourself on the head because you differ from yourself ten years ago.
    - James Burgh, 1754.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Roof Vent Question

    A little common sense goes a long way.

    • The picture of the staining was in the report. Therefore it was reported.
    • The attic air is sealed out of the home. If it were mold, it wouldn't affect the air quality in the home.
    • You chose to purchase the home with the defect clearly shown in the inspection report without first having the issue addressed. You chose to accept this problem and the repairs.
    Why in he11 would the inspector or inspection company be liable? Even if they were, what would they be liable for? You haven't had any added expense.

    MinnesotaHomeInspectors.com
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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Roof Vent Question

    Guessing at items or determining defects remotely without being present is tricky at best.

    Going only by the limited info in the first posted photo, the area looks damaged.
    The OSB sheathing (shown in the first post) is deteriorated and it should be replaced, as well as correcting the moisture source.

    I don't know if that specific area or item is in your original report or not. I also don't know if that photo shows the condition of the sheathing at the time of the inspection (things change, roofs leak, conditions worsen, etc).

    You'll have to read your report again and possibly check with the inspector.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Roof Vent Question

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Kristi Silber,

    What you don't know could fill an ocean.


    InspectionNews is an Inspector to Inspector message board. If you are a home owner, home buyer or DIYer you may post a question but please do it in the appropriate section Titled: "Questions from Home Owners, Home Buyers and DIY".

    The OP has admitted deception and his REAL AGENDA in his/her second post.


    The OP is OUT OF GAS. You, on the otherhand are FULL OF IT.

    You continue to off-topic post on discussion threads for which you have no knowledge, experience, or comprehension of the face topics, let alone the nuances, developed subtexts, etc. of the overall subject of this forum (inspection pertaining to real estate transactions), let alone this particular technical topic area/section.

    Yet agaiin you demonstrate your inability to even perform the most remedial of tasks (i.e. review a posting history of another long-time member who has minimally posted, or referred to the archieved site).

    Disingenuous is an accurate description of the OPs admitted deception and developed presentation of his/her agenda at this forum

    I have worked in attics, roofing systems, exterior envelope ground and lot most of my life.
    I needed questions answered. Now a association certified HI.

    Residential buildings are always changing.
    Buildings always being manipulated by professionals, inexperienced and the well meaning home owner trying to save.
    We learn all our lives.
    Just had to add that.

    That-statement rings true for everyone in this industry.
    From Still Learning.

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  14. #14

    Default Re: Roof Vent Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    A little common sense goes a long way.

    • The picture of the staining was in the report. Therefore it was reported.
    • The attic air is sealed out of the home. If it were mold, it wouldn't affect the air quality in the home.
    • You chose to purchase the home with the defect clearly shown in the inspection report without first having the issue addressed. You chose to accept this problem and the repairs.
    Why in he11 would the inspector or inspection company be liable? Even if they were, what would they be liable for? You haven't had any added expense.
    Have to agree with Ken here. The picture was there in the report. Sounds like the client did not act on the information until the problem got worse.

    imo


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Roof Vent Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Star View Post
    I posted just the pic alone in the OP so as to just get a gut reaction from folks as to what the issue was without the "story" coming into play. In other words a non biased opinion.

    And I apologize for posting this in the wrong section...move away.

    And lastly yes the story I have given is complete.

    By the way...how would I be in neglect here when all that was noted in the inspection report was "bath exhaust unattached"? And if you read the response from the inspection owner he says he obviously saw the "staining" yet did not report it. The whole point of an inspection is for a professional to TELL you what is a concern and what is not. His note says nothing more then it is not attached.

    Oh and lastly, there has been no copious amount of moisture dumped into the attic...though I love your use of the word there lol. The vent was reattached the day we moved in (see OP pic). While I appreciate your opinion, you got a little off base there describing my "negligence" when I have done none
    This is a good reason that repairs should be made before a home is purchased. Why did you not have it done before you purchased the home? This is one of the largest pitfalls with the purchase of a home; folks are trying to get the house as cheap as possible so many times (not saying this was the case) they whittle down the price by using the inspection report. They take the money over the repairs and this is usually what you get.

    If you have a photo that shows the problem then you really do not have much recourse when you get down to your responsibility and duty as the purchaser, IMVHO.

    If you want to proceed with this get ready for a long and expensive journey. Since your state does not regulate home inspectors, you do not have any enforcement over home inspectors in the state. You will need to seek relief through the courts. Most cases like this will take 1-3 years to go through the system or to settle. The only winner will be the attorney's and the experts (like me) that they will need to hire. Just a word of advice from a person who has worked on a few cases like this over the years.

    Last edited by Scott Patterson; 03-19-2012 at 06:23 AM.
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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Roof Vent Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Star View Post
    What would you say is occurring in this picture? Staining or rotting? Note that the vent plate was recently attached to re secure it to the roof, under the plate is more of the issue.


    Out side photos are needed to make a hypotheses on the exterior deck flange.
    It is all wrong from my point of view.

    Is this rotting or staining?

    By the interior photos you can see a defective installation.
    The venting is connected with aluminum tape.
    The flange is deformed and not shaped properly.
    The repair was unprofessional.
    I would like to see the outer deck portion.

    It is clear there is water infiltration going on for some time now.
    The venting is not properly attached to the flange.
    There should be a rubberized covering and adjustable mechanical strap or self-sealing collar at the very least to stop the forced vented humidity from escaping the interior attic connection into the attic space.
    As for water and weather intrusion from the exterior, I would like to see more photos please.

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  17. #17
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    Default Re: Roof Vent Question

    Frankly, I have to disagree somewhat with many who have expressed the opinion that the photos may (or may not) show the defect in question, and that is good enough.

    Are we supposed to let our clients just flip through pictures and diagnose their own problems and then decide for themselves what to do about it?

    OP stated that the loose vent was described in the report, not the wood damage.
    However, in re-reading the OP's follow-up post, the close-up shot (first post) may not even be the same one depicted in the report.

    While I don't know (nor do I want to know) what was written in the actual report, I would never claim or suggest that a rotten section of roof sheathing doesn't deserve some narrative or explanation. Of course, its possible it wasn't rotted or damaged during the inspection.

    Since I wasn't present, I have no factual data to form a professional opinion concerning the roof sheathing, or other defects, at the time of the inspection.

    Dom.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Roof Vent Question

    Let me clarify a couple of things. The OP "repaired" the vent shortly after taking possession. Then he took that picture. OK, is everybody clear on that?

    The vent was loose and the inspector reported it as being loose and leaking.

    The question is whether the OSB is in need of repair. About 10% of the inspectors here feel that a repair to the sheathing is needed. Would that be a simple patch from below, or a tear-off from above?

    IMO, the vent needs a better repair. Damage to the underside of the OSB sheathing appears to be minimal (negligible), but I wasn't there. There is some swelling at the seam, because the vent hole was cut at the edge of the sheathing where moisture got in.
    Dry it out and paint it white, then get on with your life.

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  19. #19
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    Default Re: Roof Vent Question

    Dominic

    You are correct.

    Just because a picture is in a report does not mean a concern has been disclosed.

    A picture alone is not a standard of care.

    Along with a picture should be an explanation of the issue,
    1. Location
    2. Task - repair/replace, further investigation, ...
    3. Time frame - immediate, discretionary, ...
    4. Implication - leak, damage to framing, structure, contents, mould.

    Frankly the explanation by the inspectors boss, is by all appearance a third party explanation. If anything the inspector himself should have dealt with the matter, he was there, the boss was not.

    As to the original poster being summarily dissed as being devious, that is speculation based on limited information.

    There is no need to address the poster in the manner exhibited by someone who themselves has no profile and is not an inspector.

    Any inspector who is professional would not respond in the manner shown, and frankly is a breach of the code of ethics of which any professional would adhere too.

    And one thing is for certain no one should make bias, unsubstantiated, rude replies without first gaining a further insight into the issue presented, albeit only one side of the story.

    It is also disheartening and disturbing to see another member of this forum riducled based on what appears to be someones il temper and dislike for a person who does not warrant such viralent attack in the least.

    Again this is a public forum, and regrettably some wannbe inspector gives us all a black eye because he has a bee in his bonnet.


  20. #20
    gene schafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roof Vent Question

    This subject probably has been exhausted on what may have caused this condition. When in doubt as a inspector I would be more comfortable to recommend that it should be further investigated by a licensed contractor. Then it is left up to the buyer to make the decision if they follow the recommendation.


  21. #21
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    Default Re: Roof Vent Question

    I agree with Raymond in particular regarding the inspector’s report not including “implications” from a reported defect and Scott also makes excellent points. As a long time EW in this type of HO vs. HI controversy I will repeat my long time mantra: "A bad settlement is often better than a good law case."

    After spending years various bulletin boards I must say I have never seen the likes of HG.

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Roof Vent Question

    I couldn't agree more with John of the Great White North on this, it is such a small issue in a such a small area with minimal damage, patch it, paint it and move on.


  23. #23
    Doctor Haus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roof Vent Question

    Good thing missing posts were quoted in earlier replies.

    I agree with the quoted missing posts and Don Burbach.

    The original picture was obviously not taken of the same area at the same time as the pictures copied from the edited inspection captioned report photos in the later post.

    The first picture is a DIY hacked repair by the purchaser or the brother-in-law 'in construction' after closing.

    The DIYer's tinkering did not correct the noted problem, defects discovered during inspection compounded possibly in the interim and subsequent to DIY tinkering, additional repairs (correctly executed) and remediation now necessary.

    How much time between inspection and the HO tinkering? How much more time between inspection and the date of the first photograph?

    Keep the brother-in-law 'in construction' out of the attic and off the roof.


  24. #24
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    Default Re: Roof Vent Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen G View Post
    Looks like its charring, what is that vent. Looks like it was just replaced, wonder what it looked like before the insp. Screwed up from the inside, so much is wrong in that photo...
    That was my immediate thought, too - charring. The pattern even seems to have "shadows" where larger wood flakes in the OSB shielded thin lines along the upper edge that didn't get burnt. The clip seems to have created a cold spot or divot that didn't get toasted Perhaps that's why the vent wasn't attached on either end, apparently - quick fix replacement?

    But then there are also little gray spots that look very much like mold, which is obviously the more likely cause of discoloration around a loose bathroom vent.

    Whatever the black stuff is, from the photo it seems to me like it could be pretty superficial, but it's really impossible to tell. There are a couple slivers of OSB hanging down, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's from fingers prying at it. Unless you can in some way show that it's connected to a deeper or ongoing problem that won't be fixed by the connection of the vent, what would you sue for? If it was a moisture problem created by the vent detachment, fixing that should stop fungal spread.

    Do not think of knocking out another person's brains because he differs in opinion from you. It would be as rational to knock yourself on the head because you differ from yourself ten years ago.
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  25. #25
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    Default Re: Roof Vent Question

    Mr.R Wand has expressed what should be explained and what the standard of care is during the inspection report to the client.
    I concur.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
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  26. #26
    Ryan Star's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roof Vent Question

    First off thank you everyone for your input. I know I posted in the wrong forum and I now know I should have just given all of the details right off the bat to avoid confusion. I know I was kind of entering a shark pit here as I am basically asking you guys to give (potentially) negative feedback on one of their own. At any rate I again appreciate the feedback and more kind responses from the majority of you

    I will Just summarize with this:

    1. We had the report done on a home built in 2005.
    2. When he told me the vent tube was down and to just reattach it I said "ok, no problem". That is the end of the "disclosure" about the spot. I was shown no photo until after he printed the report for me in my barren kitchen and charged me then left.
    3. Literally the day we move in I asked my brother in law to go up and please reattach the vent, he shows me the real issue.
    4. Frustrated (because I was not told anything about it by the inspector) I said ok please just reattach it as he said to do, I'll grab a photo here later. I then go look at the report and see the black spot plain as day. To a lay person like me, looks like a shadow. Frankly I didn't analyze the photo because he didn't make much ado about it.
    5. so then I email the company (see previous post for how that went with him) and now here we are.

    I didn't buy the house knowing everything up front which is what I thought an inspection was about. Or at least as much as possible. The inspector claims later he saw it but passed it up. But what if it is a problem to me, the buyer? What about disclosing what you see and not assuming I wouldn't have a problem with it?

    My window of 10 days to get an inspection done was happily passed on by me because I didn't know everything about the property. So then I was locked in to buying the house.


    I guess my long winded reply here is; I feel like an inspector took a liberty on something in which he assumed was not an issue. When questioned (my emails above) I get what I feel is a BS answer.

    It's not about how big the issue is to fix, danger to the house or usor anything of that nature. I'm upset that I wasn't told yet he saw it plain as day. I feel I was given An incomplete report as a result.


  27. #27
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    Default Re: Roof Vent Question

    If you feel like you were wronged, sue the inspection company.

    If not, go on about your life.

    In the mean time, there's no since crying about it on the internet.

    MinnesotaHomeInspectors.com
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  28. #28
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    Default Re: Roof Vent Question

    Ryan,
    Did the report, issues listed, suggest that "further investigated by a licensed contractor" be done?
    Did you have any contractors come and perform any further evaluations?
    Was the Home Inspector recommended by the Realtor?
    Did you have a contract with the Home Inspector?
    Did the report suggest that the roof needed to be replaced?


  29. #29
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    Darryl Grimaldi Guest

    Default Re: Roof Vent Question

    For me, the difficulty is that I don't see the narrative included with the picture. If the inspector noted the defect and advised the vent or vents be inspected and repaired by a licensed plumber or HVAC contractor before the close of escrow, then the buyer accepts responsibility if he fails to follow this recommendation and accepts a lowering of the home price or some other type of compensation rather than having it repaired by the seller. The reason being is that any additional issues or defects would have been discovered and repaired at that time, with a warranty covering the repair. If the defect was simply noted by the seller with no recommendation for repair by a licensed contractor before the close of escrow, then I think the buyer has a stronger case for inspector omission.


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