Thread: Kitchen remodel 1920s house - insulation

Hi everyone,

This is my first post. I've read through dozen of posts and as I'm sure there are what seem to be a thousand different answers to these questions there are, indeed, a thousand questions based on zones, local codes, etc.

So here's my question:

I have a plank sheethed house with stucco exterior. In the kitchen I have removed all the plaster lathe in the walls and the ceiling. What a fun job that was.

i now need to insulate the walls. The stud bays are 16" on center in most locations with 2x4 studs. If this comes as a surprise so did it to me. However, it is closer to a cottage than a house. Anyway, the framing inspection passed so the structure is fine. Now I need to insulate. I don't want to furr out the walls so i want to do rigid insulation. i have about 3" of space from the stud to the exterior wall. I don't want to do spray foam because i can't afford it.

I am in Princeton, NJ. Zone 5 (Mercer County).

Questions:
1. I am thinking rigid insulation. any thoughts on this?
2. If I use rigid insulation do I need a vapor barrier?
3. Can i stack insulation to come flush with the stud?
4. I am planning to spay foam behind the new outlets. Is this ok? Is there a special foam or is Great Stuff acceptable?
5. For fireblocking should i spray fireblocking foam into ANY opening through studs/walls?

The toughest question I can answer or resolve from research is #1 and #2. It seems EPS is best. But if it is EPS and has a vapor barrier can I then NOT stack them to come flush to the stud?

Also, does anyone know specifically if a poly sheet vapor barrier is required in zone 5 NJ?

Finally, I had the thought of getting an inspector to review the work prior to the government inspector coming in. Is this normal practice?

Thanks in advance!

I've read so much of this site and love learning about the complexities and nuance of doing this type of work. I wish I could afford to have a contractor just do everything, but that is just not reality.

Jed

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Why rigid insulation instead of fiberglass bat?
Have you priced ridged against bat?

Most older homes were built to breath and adding insulation to them requires rethinking the entire system. With just the information your presented…
In your case (opinion) the best method is to spray in insulation. I know you said this was expensive but you can buy the kits of spray foam on the web and save money on labor. Make sure you buy the 2lb foam and not the cheaper 1/2 and 1lb foam.

Maybe you should be thinking about this a little differently. Unless I missed it your entire post doesn't bring up R value at all. Consider comparing the different products based on R value versus cost as well.
Last time I checked the black sheathed and tan core rigid board had the highest R value per inch. It's been a while since I did the numbers but I don't think there was any savings between rigid board and R13 fiberglass batts. What is it you are trying to achieve, save money or get the highest R value? Any extra money you spend now you'll get back in a more comfortable house. If you want higher R value then there's various options. You could do unfaced batts and 1 layer rigid on top of that to bump up your R value.
I was on someone's site last year, GP or Owens/Manning can't remember, they had some really good info on there. You might want to browse the manufacturer sites.

You can get an R15 in a standard 2x4 wall with Roxsul (or similar) mineral wool batts. Very dense, easy to install. And yes, you will need a vapor barrier with that product.

With a stucco exterior, you need to be very careful about moisture (remember EIFS?). The wall cavity needs to be absolutely sealed or it needs to breath, which it can't do to the exterior through stucco. Any penetrations in the stucco can lead to big problems in the wall.

I'm confused when you say you have "about 3" of space from the stud to the exterior wall"; Do you mean the stucco application extends inward (into the stud bay) through the gaps in the plank sheathing? If that's the case, be careful about stacking/layering EPS because you will have a gap in the worst location - adjacent to the (cold) exterior surface putting the condensation point inside the wall. Also, a house this age is possibly balloon framed, which adds to the dynamic.

Ideally, I would spray foam the wall cavity, thereby eliminating all air in the wall. If not possible, look into a wet-spray cellulose, which also fills all the gaps in the wall and eliminates air/moisture migration.

In my opinion, you need to be concerned first about moisture migration, then R-value. I have had this battle before with architects and code officials over vapor barriers. I 'won' recently when I was construction manager on a 25 unit public housing development and changed from fiberglass batts to spray cellulose in the walls. They wanted a vapor barrier, but I was able to show (using info from the guys I link to below) that my wall assembly was better without it.

These guys are the undisputed experts on moisture dynamics in buildings:
Building Science Corporation

Originally Posted by Jed Freeman

I have a plank sheethed house with stucco exterior. In the kitchen I have removed all the plaster lathe in the walls and the ceiling.

Jed,

Now that you have removed the interior wall covering and can see the framing and the plank sheathing on the exterior side of the studs, what, exactly, do you see?

Do you see plank sheathing *only*?

Do you, can you, see between the plank sheathing? If so, what do you see?

Black felt paper?

Stucco keyed to the planks?

Water stains?

You didn't say how old the house is, but plank sheathing dates it as being somewhat 'old', so I'm going to guess that what you can see between the planks is black felt paper, possibly falling apart due to its age. I also doubt that you will be able to determine if there are two layers of felt paper or only one layer - can you determine that?

One layer means the plank sheathing was covered in felt paper as a drainage plane, but instead it became a bond breaker and the drainage plane is the exterior side of the plank sheathing - not a good thing, although it may have lasted a lot longer had nothing been done to it (as stated by others, those old houses breathe - a lot - and messing around with that can be productive ... or disastrous.

If you find two layers of felt paper, then one layer was applied to the plank sheathing and another layer applied over the first - this would be a good sign.

If you see stucco keyed between the planks - well ... you have wood plank furring with stucco applied directly to the wood plank sheathing, however, typically, the wood plank sheathing was either split narrow strips or the planks were split and stretched out when nailed to the wall, creating narrow strips of furring out of the one wider plank. That means there is no drainage plane as water does go through stucco and that water will be inside the walls. With no insulation, that water likely evaporated and dried out quickly, but add insulation and that water will soak the insulation and it will never dry out.

Okay, so, back to my question ... what, exactly, do you see?

Too many smart people ahead of me, but I agree w/ the "breathing" / air transference necessity; especially with a stucco exterior. Having said that I do not know the best options, but pretty confident foam based insulation will not allow moisture transference.

Wow!

Thank you so much for all the responses. It's been a really long day at work that ended at 5 am and started again at 9, so I'm a little tired right now to think through all the responses.

I'll be at the house tomorrow and take some pics to clarify some of the questions on here which I suspect are really important, as well as get some direct answers to everyone's questions so I don't waste anyone's time.

Again, thanks for the responses. What an amazing resource this is for the uneducated DIYer and I'll post more tomorrow!

Jed

For Jerry, the OPs title of the post dates the house in the 1920's.

Jed, are you only adding the insulation in the kitchen area, or is the entire house going to be tightened? This can affect the thinking about the breathing scenarios.

Originally Posted by Darrel Hood

For Jerry, the OPs title of the post dates the house in the 1920's.

(slaps hand to forehead)

Dang! I and read through the original post several times to find out how old it was!

Okay, so that may have been in the time frame of split boards for lath, I have seen it in houses of that age, but mostly by then they had gone to actual lath strips.

The felt paper is likely long gone by now (as far as usefulness).

Hi Everyone,

After doing a lot of fireproofing over the weekend, a project that I would be quick but turned into pulling up a floor then staring at the framing for a while figuring out how the load works, then spending what seemed to be hours lost in an internal debate about whether or not to cut more of the original floor out and replace with plywood. It seems that takes most of the time in this process: just figuring out what the hell you're going to do.

Pardon my senior moment in the original post. I do have 3.5" of space for batts, but that doesn't seem to be the most important factor here which is moisture and house breathing? That's my take on it, anyway.

I made a youtube video and hopefully it will provide some answers. I also have a couple pictures, as well.

Here's the link to the video:
Kitchen of sheethed/tar paper/metal lathe/concrete (pebble) exterior - 1920s - YouTube

I will need to find a place to put the pics, then add another post.

Thanks again!

Jed

Here's a link to pictures. The video is there, as well.

Hopefully the link works:
http://1920shouse.shutterfly.com/pictures

Jed

I would skip the board insulation in the walls. You would used it in the rim joist and foam around the edges and gaps. You can also use it on vaulted ceilings over the rafters as a thermal break. Air seal all the connections to the attic and crawlspace or unconditioned basement then install the batt insulation. Depending on your area you can use the paper faced or unfaced with plastic. If you use faced staple the paper on the face of the studs. You want the insulation to stick out just a bit so the drywall pushes it down. Look up grade 1 installation.

Originally Posted by Darrel Hood

For Jerry, the OPs title of the post dates the house in the 1920's.

Jed, are you only adding the insulation in the kitchen area, or is the entire house going to be tightened? This can affect the thinking about the breathing scenarios.

Hi Darrel,

Only the kitchen. If I had the money I'd have taken the entire house down to the studs.

Jed

Probably more than you want, but here are my observations from the video:

0:10 - Nail penetrating membrane
0:45 - Membrane moved slightly, suggesting 'open' seam
0:48 - Not much of a header over that window
1:25 - 'Old' wall section appears to be balloon framed at floor
2:05 - Moisture penetration into wall cavity (new section)
2:55 - Moisture penetration into wall cavity (old section)
3:33 - Apparent organic growth (probable mold)
3:40 - Firestopping at stud penetrations
4:03 - Batt insulation appears to be/have been installed in 'attic' gable and roof rafters, not ceiling

In my opinion, you have an on-going moisture intrusion problem. It has not destroyed the original (old) wall assembly so far because the wall cavity was wide open (balloon framed) and breathed well. of course, thermally this is a problem, but it has saved the wall framing.

The newer wall appears to be platform framed and had insulation, as well as moisture penetration. No substantial damage yet.

I see that you like firestopping, but I don't see what you are doing at the base of the balloon framed wall. if you seal the wall for firestopping, you also prevent air flow, which probably was the only thing that saved this wall.

As evidenced by multiple leaks through the exterior, you can not ensure absolute water tightness of the wall. However, the exterior 'cladding' also prevents moisture 'balancing' by diffusion (breathing). Therefore, it has to moisture balance to the interior, which won't happen with a vapor barrier.

In my opinion, installing faced insulation or a plastic vapor barrier will prevent adequate moisture balancing and any moisture that has entered the wall will be trapped. Not good.

My recommendation (short of tearing off exterior cladding and installing proper drainage plane) is to install unfaced batts, no vapor barrier, and use semi-vapor permeable (latex) paint on interior. This will allow you to seal the bottom of the open wall cavities (rigid EPS foamed into place; maybe layer some gypsum if you want fire separation capability). Oh, and make sure ceiling insulation is in the ceiling, not rafters. I don't know the floor/crawlspace configuration to discuss that (just don't install batts face down - the facing always should be installed adjacent to the heated area).

Originally Posted by Mark Fisher

Probably more than you want, but here are my observations from the video:

0:10 - Nail penetrating membrane
0:45 - Membrane moved slightly, suggesting 'open' seam
0:48 - Not much of a header over that window
1:25 - 'Old' wall section appears to be balloon framed at floor
2:05 - Moisture penetration into wall cavity (new section)
2:55 - Moisture penetration into wall cavity (old section)
3:33 - Apparent organic growth (probable mold)
3:40 - Firestopping at stud penetrations
4:03 - Batt insulation appears to be/have been installed in 'attic' gable and roof rafters, not ceiling

Wow, thanks Mark!
I'm going to go through the remainder of your response with any comments/questions in bold.

In my opinion, you have an on-going moisture intrusion problem. It has not destroyed the original (old) wall assembly so far because the wall cavity was wide open (balloon framed) and breathed well. of course, thermally this is a problem, but it has saved the wall framing.

The newer wall appears to be platform framed and had insulation, as well as moisture penetration. No substantial damage yet.

I see that you like firestopping, but I don't see what you are doing at the base of the balloon framed wall. if you seal the wall for firestopping, you also prevent air flow, which probably was the only thing that saved this wall.
1. It's a code requirement which I have to add. It is curious since I don't have to firestop the kitchen studs, only the penetrations between studs. I was working on a bathroom upstairs which required firestopping between floors

As evidenced by multiple leaks through the exterior, you can not ensure absolute water tightness of the wall. However, the exterior 'cladding' also prevents moisture 'balancing' by diffusion (breathing). Therefore, it has to moisture balance to the interior, which won't happen with a vapor barrier.
2. I see. So, with the original plaster/lathe interior there was an airpspace which was the "insulator" between the exterior wall and moisture would pass from the interior to the exterior and vice versa? On a side note, the place was comfortable in Winter and Summer. I think they knew what they were doing without insulation!

In my opinion, installing faced insulation or a plastic vapor barrier will prevent adequate moisture balancing and any moisture that has entered the wall will be trapped. Not good.
3. So, is kraft paper facing included the definition of "faced" insulation? I just assumed it was plain paper and not treated paper, of course.

My recommendation (short of tearing off exterior cladding and installing proper drainage plane) is to install unfaced batts, no vapor barrier, and use semi-vapor permeable (latex) paint on interior.
4. Is this any latex based paint, or something specific?

This will allow you to seal the bottom of the open wall cavities (rigid EPS foamed into place; maybe layer some gypsum if you want fire separation capability).
5. Perhaps I can just leave this open? Or are you saying that since I am putting up sheetrock I should do this since I lost all that mass with interior plaster/lathe? If I left this open to breathe perhaps I can use the faced insulation - I ask this because it might be a code vs logic argument with the inspector.

Oh, and make sure ceiling insulation is in the ceiling, not rafters. I don't know the floor/crawlspace configuration to discuss that
6. I am not sure what you mean here.
If you are referring to the attic, there barely is one. The top floor is the attic, if you will. The ceiling of the top floor seems to be where the collar ties (I just learned this term) are. There is no access to these sections except cutting a hole in the ceiling but I do know they have insulation because of various holes from new electric work.

Or are you referring to kitchen ceiling rafters?

There is a basement in the house. Should I inslate the rafters? We put in a french drain and drylocked it so humidity remains mostly Ok.

(just don't install batts face down - the facing always should be installed adjacent to the heated area).
Clarifying this: If I insulated the basement using kraft faced batts I would place the kraft facing facing up towards the bottom of the floor?

One more question: If I did sprayed insulation would I just be trapped moisture between the foam and the exterior wall? Basically, when the wood sheathing got wet would there be enough transferenice back through the stucco exterior to prevent it from rotting?

Finally, know I know what balloon framing is and a whole lot more. Fascinating stuff!

Jed

All right, this is going to get complicated, so I'll answer in RED

Originally Posted by Jed Freeman

Wow, thanks Mark!
I'm going to go through the remainder of your response with any comments/questions in bold.

In my opinion, you have an on-going moisture intrusion problem. It has not destroyed the original (old) wall assembly so far because the wall cavity was wide open (balloon framed) and breathed well. of course, thermally this is a problem, but it has saved the wall framing.

The newer wall appears to be platform framed and had insulation, as well as moisture penetration. No substantial damage yet.

I see that you like firestopping, but I don't see what you are doing at the base of the balloon framed wall. if you seal the wall for firestopping, you also prevent air flow, which probably was the only thing that saved this wall.
1. It's a code requirement which I have to add. It is curious since I don't have to firestop the kitchen studs, only the penetrations between studs. I was working on a bathroom upstairs which required firestopping between floorsWhatever makes the code guy happy, but without closing the bottom of the wall cavity, this is pretty silly.

As evidenced by multiple leaks through the exterior, you can not ensure absolute water tightness of the wall. However, the exterior 'cladding' also prevents moisture 'balancing' by diffusion (breathing). Therefore, it has to moisture balance to the interior, which won't happen with a vapor barrier.
2. I see. So, with the original plaster/lathe interior there was an airpspace which was the "insulator" between the exterior wall and moisture would pass from the interior to the exterior and vice versa? On a side note, the place was comfortable in Winter and Summer. I think they knew what they were doing without insulation! Nope. The original wall is balloon framed (right?). The moisture entering through defects in the exterior cladding was able to escape through air exchange via the open stud bays at the bottom, and to some degree though the interior plaster. Not much R-value involved. Not sure why summer/winter temps did not impact interior, but there are other aspects involved, especially with balloon framing.

In my opinion, installing faced insulation or a plastic vapor barrier will prevent adequate moisture balancing and any moisture that has entered the wall will be trapped. Not good.
3. So, is kraft paper facing included the definition of "faced" insulation? I just assumed it was plain paper and not treated paper, of course. The kraft facing is considered a vapor barrier.

My recommendation (short of tearing off exterior cladding and installing proper drainage plane) is to install unfaced batts, no vapor barrier, and use semi-vapor permeable (latex) paint on interior.
4. Is this any latex based paint, or something specific?Latex paint in general is considered semi-permeable to permeable. LINK or HERE

This will allow you to seal the bottom of the open wall cavities (rigid EPS foamed into place; maybe layer some gypsum if you want fire separation capability).
5. Perhaps I can just leave this open? Or are you saying that since I am putting up sheetrock I should do this since I lost all that mass with interior plaster/lathe? If I left this open to breathe perhaps I can use the faced insulation - I ask this because it might be a code vs logic argument with the inspector. Leaving this open negates much of the R value in batt insulation since it allows air movement. That air movement does help with dispersing any moisture, but having a vapor permeable interior wall surface should be sufficient. The code guy can be a problem; I was able to convince mine, but I did so by convincing the architect and the code language allows a design professional to deviate. It may be hard to convince him since you have a hybrid wall design - it's not EIFS, but it is similar to the old problem EIFS that didn't have a drainage plane. With the exterior membranes, your wall is vapor impermeable to the exterior; therefore it HAS to be vapor permeable to the inside. Applying current codes to one aspect of the wall without taking into account the rest of the wall design is a mistake. Again, I went HERE for the technical back-up I used for my client.

Oh, and make sure ceiling insulation is in the ceiling, not rafters. I don't know the floor/crawlspace configuration to discuss that
6. I am not sure what you mean here.
If you are referring to the attic, there barely is one. The top floor is the attic, if you will. The ceiling of the top floor seems to be where the collar ties (I just learned this term) are. There is no access to these sections except cutting a hole in the ceiling but I do know they have insulation because of various holes from new electric work.OK, I didn't get a good enough look from the video. This is what's called a 'story-and-a-half' or sloped ceiling design. They have their own issues and optimum design for both thermal and moisture control, along with the extra element of roof ventilation. A different topic for discussion.

Or are you referring to kitchen ceiling rafters?Rafters support a roof (sloped); joists support a ceiling or a floor (horizontal). You said there is to be a bathroom above the kitchen, so no insulation is needed between the floors. Won't hurt anything, so unfaced sound batts are OK.

There is a basement in the house. Should I inslate the rafters? We put in a french drain and drylocked it so humidity remains mostly Ok. Is the basement mostly below grade? Walk-out? Finished? Are there heat runs going through it? Water lines? How cold does it get in the deepest part of winter? I am not an advocate for installing the batts in the floor joists if there are any water or heat runs present in the basement. Also, if it never gets below 50 degrees in the winter, then there is very little difference in temp between the upstairs and down for the insulation to 'resist' (R value is a measure of the resistance to heat flow from one area to another). In other words, not very cost effective. However, if you have a cold basement/crawlspace, with no water lines or heat runs, that routinely gets below freezing, then yes, insulate the floor. But install with the kraft facing 'up' towards the heated room. I'm an advocate for basement/crawlspace perimeter insulation if any water or heat runs go through it, assuming that it is dry, but that is also another topic for discussion.

(just don't install batts face down - the facing always should be installed adjacent to the heated area).
Clarifying this: If I insulated the basement using kraft faced batts I would place the kraft facing facing up towards the bottom of the floor?Yep. See above.

One more question: If I did sprayed insulation would I just be trapped moisture between the foam and the exterior wall? Basically, when the wood sheathing got wet would there be enough transferenice back through the stucco exterior to prevent it from rotting?The water intrusion, we've been assuming, is due to penetrations/defects in the exterior, allowing direct water entry. We are assuming little to no permeability to the exterior. So, yes, foaming the wall cavity will trap any water in the wood substrate. Bad.

Finally, know I know what balloon framing is and a whole lot more. Fascinating stuff!

Jed

Originally Posted by Mark Fisher

All right, this is going to get complicated, so I'll answer in RED

Mark,

Thanks so much. Really, I owe you a beer or three for talking me through the process. I think I'm going to follow your's and Robert's (below) recommendations. It seems that there is no perfect solution to this dilemma and there's a bit of cross you fingers and pray.

I think I'm going to use rigid insulation top and bottom, with foam and 2x4s for fireblocking (mentioned by the code inspecor), then do unfaced batts. If the inspector states that I must have a vapor barrier no matter what I will put in poly, i guess. But now I have some ammunition for a reasonable discourse.

I will update this thread once this all gets settled.

Thanks so much for all the terrific recommendations and advice. It makes me wonder if a lot of professional installers come here to learn.

Jed

Originally Posted by Robert Ernst

I would skip the board insulation in the walls. You would used it in the rim joist and foam around the edges and gaps. You can also use it on vaulted ceilings over the rafters as a thermal break. Air seal all the connections to the attic and crawlspace or unconditioned basement then install the batt insulation. Depending on your area you can use the paper faced or unfaced with plastic. If you use faced staple the paper on the face of the studs. You want the insulation to stick out just a bit so the drywall pushes it down. Look up grade 1 installation.

Originally Posted by Jed Freeman

It makes me wonder if a lot of professional installers come here to learn.

Based on what we see ... the answer would be 'No.'

Maybe they should, we could point them to the installation instructions and the code ... 'cause that's where we go.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Based on what we see ... the answer would be 'No.'

Maybe they should, we could point them to the installation instructions and the code ... 'cause that's where we go.

I think the big thing is creativity. I work in software and it is the same mentality. I can tell the really good programmers from the average, almost instantly. They are curious and constant learners and it shows in the product at the end of the day.

I couldn't imagine being a trade professional and not sourcing ideas and inspiration from boards like these.

By the way, I have done a TON of research and this is the most useful and professional board I've come accross.

Thanks again, everyone!

One final note from me: even if you manage to build a properly vapor balanced (breathable) wall assembly, you must keep the exterior cladding intact to prevent water entry. As seen in your video, even a wide open wall will be damaged by continued wetting.

Good luck!

Originally Posted by Mark Fisher

One final note from me: even if you manage to build a properly vapor balanced (breathable) wall assembly, you must keep the exterior cladding intact to prevent water entry. As seen in your video, even a wide open wall will be damaged by continued wetting.

Good luck!

Thanks, Mark!

We're having the exterior patched and painted by a company that really seems to know what they're doing.

Maybe with one of these massive storms rolling through NJ will knock a tree onto the house. Then we can just replace just about everything.

First up all I would like to congratulate you for your great efforts. Remodeling a 1920 house kitchen is really a tough task. And can say impossible. Although, the kitchen remodeling is one of the hectic project for me. But your efforts are really fantastic. Can you tell me what paint you are using for painting your kitchen?

Originally Posted by Charles Russell

First up all I would like to congratulate you for your great efforts. Remodeling a 1920 house kitchen is really a tough task. And can say impossible. Although, the kitchen remodeling is one of the hectic project for me. But your efforts are really fantastic. Can you tell me what paint you are using for painting your kitchen?

Hi Charles,

Not sure yet. I've been doing research now on paint breathability and haven't come to a final conclusion.

After doing the incessant reading, and a large part of it from the links in this thread, I will be painting latex (not there is that much of an option these days).

However, of note is the exterior paint which was a bit of a debate until going through this process. Although it seems wise to paint with a non-permeable paint (if water can't get in we won't have a problem, right????!!!!), I think we will go with something relatively permeable or a hybrid-elastomeric paint. The building and its exterior has lasted over 90 years so why mess with it? It's "breathing system" seems to be fine as long as the correct maintenance is done.

Jed

Hi, Jed

Well planned. I also think the same. The Latex ENAMEL is a very good choice today. I top coat of Minwax' Water Based Polycrylic over the paint. It adds to the clean ability and strengthen the surface. Now, it is also depends on you what color of paint you want to use. I used a BM Imnpervo in a deep dark chocolate color. And as you said for exterior paint, for me also it is still a big question. Well, I am searching a other forums as well for exterior paint suggestions. Hopefully I will find something there.

Charles, describing your BM as a deep dark chocolate color is way too much info.