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  1. #1
    Bhava Dasa's Avatar
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    Default Gap at bottom of new door

    I installed an interior door in a new (not-lived-in-yet) home. I put the flooring in first, then installed a pre-hung door. When the owner stood back, he noticed a gap at the bottom of 1 1/4 in. He says this is too much, and wants me to remove the door, cut the bottom of the jam off, and reinstall.

    There are another 10 doors to hang, and it will take too long if I do this. I am also concerned about the exactness of the cut. I would like to at least to inform him of the standard. Hopefully this may change his mind.

    So, the two issues are: 1- the time factor, and 2- the exactness of the cut. Any advice?

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Gap at bottom of new door

    Quote Originally Posted by Bhava Dasa View Post
    I installed an interior door in a new (not-lived-in-yet) home. I put the flooring in first, then installed a pre-hung door. When the owner stood back, he noticed a gap at the bottom of 1 1/4 in. He says this is too much, and wants me to remove the door, cut the bottom of the jam off, and reinstall.

    There are another 10 doors to hang, and it will take too long if I do this. I am also concerned about the exactness of the cut. I would like to at least to inform him of the standard. Hopefully this may change his mind.

    So, the two issues are: 1- the time factor, and 2- the exactness of the cut. Any advice?
    If there are no return air grills installed in the room the door closes off, the 1" gap is required for HVAC circulation.

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

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    Default Re: Gap at bottom of new door

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    If there are no return air grills installed in the room the door closes off, the 1" gap is required for HVAC circulation.
    "required" by whom?

    In Florida, we recognize that to achieve proper return air flow under a door that the door would need to be undercut around 3", maybe even more. Thus a return is required in every room or area which has a supply and can be closed off by a door.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Gap at bottom of new door

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    "required" by whom?

    In Florida, we recognize that to achieve proper return air flow under a door that the door would need to be undercut around 3", maybe even more. Thus a return is required in every room or area which has a supply and can be closed off by a door.
    Hmmm. Surely not bathrooms & toilet rooms. Surely not heated utility/laundry roomns.

    I'm not finding any such "Florida" requirement for "every room or area which has a supply and can be closed off by a door" without exception having to have a return.


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    Default Re: Gap at bottom of new door

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    "required" by whom?

    In Florida, we recognize that to achieve proper return air flow under a door that the door would need to be undercut around 3", maybe even more. Thus a return is required in every room or area which has a supply and can be closed off by a door.
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Hmmm. Surely not bathrooms & toilet rooms. Surely not heated utility/laundry roomns.

    I'm not finding any such "Florida" requirement for "every room or area which has a supply and can be closed off by a door" without exception having to have a return.
    I figured that any sensible person would understand what I said, but, I do understand that you are not a sensible person and that I should have stated the requirements more specifically ... just for you ... but then, you are not worth that effort.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Gap at bottom of new door

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    If there are no return air grills installed in the room the door closes off, the 1" gap is required for HVAC circulation.
    Just to clarify for you as to what is required here in Florida as referenced in my above post:
    - M1602.4 Balanced return air. Restricted return air occurs in buildings when returns are located in central zones and closed interior doors impede air flow to the return grill or when ceiling spaces are used as return plenums and fire walls restrict air movement from one portion of the return plenum to another. Provisions shall be made in residential buildings to avoid unbalanced air flows and pressure differentials caused by restricted return air. Pressure differentials across closed doors where returns are centrally located shall be limited to 0.01 inch WC (2.5 Pa) or less. Pressure differentials across fire walls in ceiling space plenums shall be limited to 0.01 inch WC (2.5 Pa) by providing air duct pathways or air transfer pathways from the high pressure zone to the low zone.
    - - Exceptions:
    - - - 1. Transfer ducts may achieve this by increasing the return transfer one and one half times the cross sectional area (square inches) of the supply duct entering the room or space it's serving and the door having at least an unrestricted 1 inch (25 mm) undercut to achieve proper return air balance.
    - - - 2. Transfer grilles shall use 50 square inches (4.6 mm) (of grille area) to 100 cfm (0.05 m3/s) (of supply air) for sizing through-the-wall transfer grilles and using an unrestricted 1-inch (25 mm) undercutting of doors to achieve proper return air balance
    - - - 3. Habitable rooms only shall be required to meet these requirements for proper balanced return air excluding bathrooms, closets, storage rooms and laundry rooms, except that all supply air into the master suite shall be included.

    I suspect that you, and all but apparently Watson, understand that you cannot put more air into a room than is pushed out of the room, unless, of course, the intent is to try to pressurize that room, in which case one would need to installed a sealed hatch door, sealed outlet boxes, sealed windows, etc., ... hard to believe that I have had to resort to such specificity for the likes of one Watson.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Gap at bottom of new door

    1-1/4" above finished flooring surface is unreasonable. The "owner" is right to be upset.

    Hire a competant carpenter.


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    Default Re: Gap at bottom of new door

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    1-1/4" above finished flooring surface is unreasonable. The "owner" is right to be upset.
    Not if there is no other return air from that room ... er ... for you, Watson, ... not if there is no other return air from that HABITABLE room. Sheesh.

    The owner may well be upset with the large gap, but the owner would also be upset when the rooms do not cool as intended due to restricted return air.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Gap at bottom of new door

    Peck,

    OF COURSE IT IS NOT AS YOU SAID :
    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
    Thus a return is required in every room or area which has a supply and can be closed off by a door.
    Of course it is " Habitable rooms only shall be required to meet these requirements for proper balanced return air excluding bathrooms, closets, storage rooms and laundry rooms, except that all supply air into the master suite shall be included." AND still other alternatives exist (jumpers & transfers).

    Nothing of course having to do with the OP or his 11-door head-scratching 'cart before the horse' dillema having installed the finish flooring before attempting first-time DIY installation of pre-hung doors. No one said there is forced air anything, nor that the doors close off HABITAL spaces, or that those that do, those habital spaces don't have provisions for balanced circulation in those areas.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 08-14-2012 at 07:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Gap at bottom of new door

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Nothing of course having to do with the OP or his 11-door head-scratching 'cart before the horse' dillema having installed the finish flooring before attempting first-time DIY installation of pre-hung doors. No one said there is forced air anything, nor that the doors close off HABITAL spaces, or that those that do, those habital spaces don't have provisions for balanced circulation in those areas.
    Then you are not only making yourself into your usual boar and bore by and with your comments regarding what he was doing and your ASSU (not the 'me' part) of his experience, but you are once again showing all that you apparently only cannot read, but that you cannot comprehend what you are looking at and what the words are stating and why.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Gap at bottom of new door

    Quote Originally Posted by Bhava Dasa View Post
    I installed an interior door in a new (not-lived-in-yet) home. I put the flooring in first, then installed a pre-hung door. When the owner stood back, he noticed a gap at the bottom of 1 1/4 in. He says this is too much, and wants me to remove the door, cut the bottom of the jam off, and reinstall.

    There are another 10 doors to hang, and it will take too long if I do this. I am also concerned about the exactness of the cut. I would like to at least to inform him of the standard. Hopefully this may change his mind.

    So, the two issues are: 1- the time factor, and 2- the exactness of the cut. Any advice?
    You were contracted (hired) to install doors. Implied is to install the doors to an acceptable standard. Part of the problem is, the only standard either of you know of is customer satisfaction. This time the customer is not satisfied.
    With most contracts to install doors (and most likely yours) your time has nothing to do with it, only that the job is completed to the customers satisfaction. . As for the exactness of the cuts. Trimming of the door is to be expected. If you are unable to do the job you should not have accepted it.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Gap at bottom of new door

    Quote Originally Posted by Bhava Dasa View Post
    So, the two issues are: 1- the time factor, and 2- the exactness of the cut. Any advice?
    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    You were contracted (hired) to install doors. Implied is to install the doors to an acceptable standard. Part of the problem is, the only standard either of you know of is customer satisfaction. This time the customer is not satisfied.
    With most contracts to install doors (and most likely yours) your time has nothing to do with it, only that the job is completed to the customers satisfaction. . As for the exactness of the cuts. Trimming of the door is to be expected. If you are unable to do the job you should not have accepted it.
    I agree with Rick on these two points: (unless this was a time and material contract, then only on one point)
    - You agreed to install 11 doors for $XXX and the amount of time it takes to install each door and all of the doors does not matter to the customer - as long as you do not take longer than is open for you to do so. (unless time and material)
    - The exactness of the cut is one of skill and experience, and, if the customer hired you based on a referral, then he knows, or should be aware of, your skill and experience level.

    The question now becomes several, including, but not limited to:
    - The flooring in question and the return air flow required, along with the look (height above the finished floor) the customer may be looking for. If the customer wants a small fraction of an inch undercut, then I would advise the customer, in writing, of the drawback of not allowing for any return air (unless return air ducts are installed in the rooms, then no undercut is required other than to clear the floor), you will want to have his response in writing too. That way, if there is a complaint later about lack of heating and cooling and it is traced to a lack of return air from the room due to the limited undercut, you have in writing that your customer ordered you to cut the height too x/x inches.
    - Your expertise in making the necessary cuts and still being able to trim the door out so its final appearance is to the accepted standard in your area for that type of house and door (which will vary around the country).
    - Additionally there is the fitting of the door within the jambs and the hanging of the door true, plumb, and in plane - unless the door needs to be adjusted to allow for an out of plumb wall, in which case your door hanging skills will allow you to adjust the door such that it will not swing open or closed.

    Take what you have been told here and apply it with your installation for your customer.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  13. #13
    Bob Spermo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gap at bottom of new door

    Jerry,

    I have tested numerous bedrooms with a 1/2" - 1" space between bottom of door and floor with a supply but without a return. In the vast majority of cases the room pressure WRT the house was less than +2.5 Pa. That being said it is still a good idea to have a return in all rooms with a supply and a door!


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    Default Re: Gap at bottom of new door

    Bhava,
    I would not worry about the time to cut down the jams. Good blade and a good square is all it takes (pluss some skill).

    Think of it this way.
    How much time would you have spent taking out the 11 doors and reinstalling them.
    So, 1 door to redo is worth it in the time that you have saved on the others..

    Side thought. Carpet with pad can take 1 inch to clear leaving 1/4 gap...


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    Default Re: Gap at bottom of new door

    Bhava,
    I would not worry about the time to cut down the jams. Good blade and a good square is all it takes (plus some skill).

    Think of it this way.
    How much time would you have spent taking out the 11 doors and reinstalling them.
    So, 1 door to redo is worth it in the time that you have saved on the others..

    Side thought. Carpet with pad can take 1 inch to clear leaving 1/4 gap...

    Get the customer to sign off that he wants x" clearance, saves arguing later.


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Gap at bottom of new door

    Ask if they want throw rugs at any of the doorways before you start trimming. I hate doors that drag on the carpet.

    To remove the door frame, slide a hacksaw blade or sawzall blade behind the frame and clip the nails off.
    Before reinstalling, make sure it is all square.

    Last edited by John Kogel; 08-15-2012 at 09:22 AM.
    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

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