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  1. #1
    Larry Morris's Avatar
    Larry Morris Guest

    Default 4x7 Kitchen Island, questions regarding code in Phoenix AZ

    Howdy,

    I'm installing cabinetry for a kitchen island that is 4'x7', and will have an overhang on one end that will be approximately 18", bringing the total surface area to 4'x8.5', flat, no bar top.

    I've ran 12/3 (dedicated for DW and Disposal) and 12/2 (outlets) home runs through nonmetallic 3/4" conduit to the island, stripping back the romex where the wiring entered the conduit in the process. I did this while the slab was open after the plumbing was installed. I then buried the conduit approx 8" below the slab, then re-poured the concrete.

    A few questions I have based off of this information:

    a) The distance from where the electrical comes up from the slab to where the 12/3 dedicated (DW and disposal) outlet will be is about 2-3', and there is no open area between the front and back cabinets. Can I continue the nonmetallic conduit up to the outlet box and be within code?

    b) The non-dedicated outlets that are required on the island, can I install these outlets on the surface of the island? I've found flanged pop up outlets that I can use in this installation but I'm having difficulty finding the bit of code on this. Link is to the technical drawing of the outlet which the manufacturer advises is made specifically for kitchens - http://www.mockett.com/images/techni..._technical.gif

    I've linked a few pictures from SkyDrive of what I've got going on if it helps. Thanks for these forums and the folks that help with them.

    Thanks,
    Larry

    http://sdrv.ms/W41YtO
    http://sdrv.ms/VkmIBe
    http://sdrv.ms/W428kQ

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: 4x7 Kitchen Island, questions regarding code in Phoenix AZ

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Morris View Post

    b) The non-dedicated outlets that are required on the island, can I install these outlets on the surface of the island? I've found flanged pop up outlets that I can use in this installation but I'm having difficulty finding the bit of code on this. Link is to the technical drawing of the outlet which the manufacturer advises is made specifically for kitchens - http://www.mockett.com/images/techni..._technical.gif
    Hey Larry, IMO on part B of your question, I would say no to the pop up receptacles in lieu of receptacle(s) on the end of the island. From what I see in the drawings it is a glorified extension cord.


  3. #3
    Garry Blankenship's Avatar
    Garry Blankenship Guest

    Default Re: 4x7 Kitchen Island, questions regarding code in Phoenix AZ

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Morris View Post
    Howdy,

    I'm installing cabinetry for a kitchen island that is 4'x7', and will have an overhang on one end that will be approximately 18", bringing the total surface area to 4'x8.5', flat, no bar top.

    I've ran 12/3 (dedicated for DW and Disposal) and 12/2 (outlets) home runs through nonmetallic 3/4" conduit to the island, stripping back the romex where the wiring entered the conduit in the process. I did this while the slab was open after the plumbing was installed. I then buried the conduit approx 8" below the slab, then re-poured the concrete.

    A few questions I have based off of this information:

    a) The distance from where the electrical comes up from the slab to where the 12/3 dedicated (DW and disposal) outlet will be is about 2-3', and there is no open area between the front and back cabinets. Can I continue the nonmetallic conduit up to the outlet box and be within code?

    b) The non-dedicated outlets that are required on the island, can I install these outlets on the surface of the island? I've found flanged pop up outlets that I can use in this installation but I'm having difficulty finding the bit of code on this. Link is to the technical drawing of the outlet which the manufacturer advises is made specifically for kitchens - http://www.mockett.com/images/techni..._technical.gif

    I've linked a few pictures from SkyDrive of what I've got going on if it helps. Thanks for these forums and the folks that help with them.

    Thanks,
    Larry

    http://sdrv.ms/W41YtO
    http://sdrv.ms/VkmIBe
    http://sdrv.ms/W428kQ
    Sorry about repeating your post, but I need it visable for reference.
    > The slab conduit install should have been inspected before you poured it.
    > You should not have stripped the jackets off the N/M cable. Those conductors are only approved for use inside that jacket, ( I believe ).
    > The conductors cannot be subject to physical damage. If that photo is a toe kick, it's a problem.
    > The NM conduit could, ( probably should ), be extended to the cabinet interior or to a box, but the stripped NM jacketing conductors are not to code.
    > The DW and Disp circuits must be terminated on a two pole circuit breaker.
    > There are devices and enclosures that can be used on or flush with the counter top, but do you really want that ?


  4. #4
    Larry Morris's Avatar
    Larry Morris Guest

    Default Re: 4x7 Kitchen Island, questions regarding code in Phoenix AZ

    Howdy and thanks for the feedback. Looks like I'm going back to the drawing board.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: 4x7 Kitchen Island, questions regarding code in Phoenix AZ

    And, you can't run NM underground, even in conduit, sounds like slab on grade as you said you buried the conduit 8".

    You will need to pull THHW or THWN (couple others) wet & dry location rated conductors (dual rated). The interior of conduit installed underground is considered a wet location.


  6. #6
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    Default Re: 4x7 Kitchen Island, questions regarding code in Phoenix AZ

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Morris View Post
    Howdy,

    I'm installing cabinetry for a kitchen island that is 4'x7', and will have an overhang on one end that will be approximately 18", bringing the total surface area to 4'x8.5', flat, no bar top.

    I've ran 12/3 (dedicated for DW and Disposal) and 12/2 (outlets) home runs through nonmetallic 3/4" conduit to the island, stripping back the romex where the wiring entered the conduit in the process. I did this while the slab was open after the plumbing was installed. I then buried the conduit approx 8" below the slab, then re-poured the concrete.

    A few questions I have based off of this information:

    a) The distance from where the electrical comes up from the slab to where the 12/3 dedicated (DW and disposal) outlet will be is about 2-3', and there is no open area between the front and back cabinets. Can I continue the nonmetallic conduit up to the outlet box and be within code?

    b) The non-dedicated outlets that are required on the island, can I install these outlets on the surface of the island? I've found flanged pop up outlets that I can use in this installation but I'm having difficulty finding the bit of code on this. Link is to the technical drawing of the outlet which the manufacturer advises is made specifically for kitchens - http://www.mockett.com/images/techni..._technical.gif

    I've linked a few pictures from SkyDrive of what I've got going on if it helps. Thanks for these forums and the folks that help with them.

    Thanks,
    Larry

    http://sdrv.ms/W41YtO
    http://sdrv.ms/VkmIBe
    http://sdrv.ms/W428kQ

    No, absolutely not. A 15A relocatable power tap is NOT a fixed wiring method, and in no way may it be used as any type of substitute for a required 20A small appliance branch circuit.

    You describe a supersized FIXED kitchen island with permanently installed dischwasher and disposal (which further implies a sink installation as well). You may NOT use a specified (replacement use) FURNITURE accessory - relocatable power tap for required receptacles! Extension cords, relocatable power taps, and the like are NOT permanent wiring, and do NOT meet the requirements (smaller guage wiring, are temporary, do not meet the power requirements, etc.) of permanently installed/fixed premisis wiring and to NOT meet the requirements of the NEC for other than their Listed purpose (which does NOT include fixed wiring).

    Your jurisdiction has an AHJ and has adopted CODES, and requires PERMITS for such work, even and especially, that which is performed by an owner/occupant. Such requires plans submitted and approved IN ADVANCE of the beginning of work. Penalties aside, get yourself inconcert with the LAW of the land, it seems quite apparent you have no lawful permit for this work.

    I've used the same expression borrowed by a previous poster "glorified extension cord" on other discussions where THIS SAME internet marketed device (for IMPROPER PURPOSE) was proposed.

    The device you referenced is only intended for convenience to install in mobile/movable furniture and to be used with its supplied 9' cord & cap to be "plugged" into a receptacle.



    Frankly, this DIY post sounds hauntingly familiar to one just a few months ago: http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...tml#post196071


  7. #7
    Larry Morris's Avatar
    Larry Morris Guest

    Default Re: 4x7 Kitchen Island, questions regarding code in Phoenix AZ

    Mike, that is correct. I will pull the NM, it's only about 9' so not an issue for me to run the correct conductors, but in the meantime it looks like I'll be eating crow while I get this sorted out for the permit.

    Mr. Watson, apologies for the alarm. It's not my intention to perform a half assed DIY, so I'll get the permits taken care of. Regarding the counter top outlets, this approach has already been scrapped.


  8. #8
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    Default Re: 4x7 Kitchen Island, questions regarding code in Phoenix AZ

    Robert Meier (and to the OP, Larry Morris),

    I fully agree with you (Robert), that
    UL File No. KCXS.E339808, (Thomas & Betts)
    Marked: "Carlon (R)" Cat. Nos.:
    • KPR-15G-BRZ (oil rubbed bronze),
    • KPR-15G-BRS (brass), or
    • KPR-15G-NKL (nickel),

    which are Listed to UL 943, and further identified/marked/labeled as:
    "Counter-Top Pop-Up GFCI" or
    "Self-Contained GFCI",
    From Thomas & Betts,

    are Code & safety-wise, an acceptable option/solution.

    If marked "portable" or equipped with a cord & plug, or listed to a different standard, (such as UL 1363) then not. IIRC the UL 498 Standard ed. with spill test, etc. isn't effective yet (2015 iirc), and the requirements when effective aren't as stringent.

    Example:

    Carlon (R) Cat. No. KPR-15G-NKL (Nickel)
    UPC Number: 03448100981
    UL File No. E339808

    Outlet: (1) duplex tamper-resistant GFCI receptacle -- 15A, 125VAC, 60Hz, 20A Feed-Through

    MC Cable Whip: 12/2 with ground wire, 5' long with 6" leads

    Listings/Compliances:
    - UL 943
    - CS C22.2 No. 144.1
    - NEC(R) Article 210.52(C)(5)
    - NEC Article 406.5(E)
    Now you can provide power for small appliances on kitchen island countertops safely and conveniently with the new Carlon(R) Recessed Pop-Up Receptacle. When not in use, the receptacle remains concealed beneath the counter, showing only a stylish nickel, bronze or brass cover. Simply press down slightly on the cover to release the latch, and the Recessed Pop-Up Receptacle rises, reveling duplex GFCI outlet. The pop-up receptacle can also be mounted in bath counters or other work surfaces.

    In addition to promoting safety by eliminating hanging power cords and providing a tamper-resistant GFCI receptacle, the Recessed Pop-Up Receptacle also includes gaskets under the flange and around the main body to prevent spilled liquids from entering the electrical enclosure, regardless of whether the receptacle is open or closed. The Recessed Pop-Up Receptacle is the first device to pass the new UL(R) Spill Test developed specifically for receptacles of this type.

    Features
    • Provides duplex GFCI outlet in a kitchen island or peninsula counter for easy access to power for small appliances
    • Eliminates the potential safety hazard of power cords hnging over the edge of counters to reach side-mounted outlets
    • Meets new UL(R)and NEC(R) requirements for receptacles mounted in kitchen counters
    • Receptacle remains recessed below counter when not in use
    • To access outlet, simply press down on cover and the receptacp
    • Cover avilble in three finishes to match ny kitchen decor -- nickel, oil-rubbed bronze or brass
    • Ideal countertop power solution for kitchens, baths and other work surfaces.
    ...

    "Exclusive! Internal gasket protects electrical connections from spills"
    "External gasket provides a seal between the receptacle flange and the countertop"
    "Locking collar secures assembly to the counter"
    From the Scope of the Standard for Safety, UL 943 (clickable link) Scope for UL 943

    :


    1.1 This Standard applies to Class A, single- and three-phase, ground-fault circuit-interrupters intended for protection of personnel, for use only in grounded neutral systems in accordance with the National Electrical Code (NEC), ANSI/NFPA 70, the Canadian Electrical Code, C22.1 (CEC), and Electrical Installations (Use), NOM-001-SEDE. These devices are intended for use on alternating current (AC) circuits of 120 V, 208Y/120 V, 120/240 V, 127 V, or 220Y/127 V, 60 Hz circuits.Note: In Canada, the text "intended for protection of personnel" is excluded.
    1.2 These requirements do not cover ground-fault circuit-interrupters intended for use in circuits served by a transformer having windings wholly insulated from each other.
    1.3 This Standard applies to all Class A ground-fault circuit-interrupters. These Class A GFCIs are permitted to be integrated into other devices, in which case, besides complying with this Standard, these devices are to comply with the corresponding applicable Standard for the device in question.
    1.4 This Standard includes minimum requirements for the function, construction, performance, and markings of ground-fault circuit-interrupters included in the scope.
    1.5 This Standard is intended to cover only Class A GFCI devices.
    1.6 This Standard also covers GFCIs of the self contained type that are intended for installation in a counter, such as would be suitable for installation in a kitchen or bathroom counter top.
    From the UL White Book, or the On-Line Cert. Guide (UL) Category Code KCXS (clickable link):

    KCXS.GuideInfo - Ground-fault Circuit Interrupters

    Self-contained GFCIs
    Self-contained GFCIs are provided with a complete enclosure intended to be permanently attached to the mounting surface, and a means of permanent connection to the supply conductors. They may be provided with one or more receptacle outlets or a means for permanent connection of the load conductors.

    All self-contained GFCIs intended for installation in a counter are suitable for installation in a kitchen or bathroom countertop. They are provided with one or more receptacle outlets. The outlets may be fixed or retractable for storage below the counter surface.
    Clickable link to the Thomas & Betts File No. which includes the products discussed:

    KCXS.E339808 - Ground-fault Circuit Interrupters

    At approx $350 ea. MSRP (iirc), somewhat pricey, but meets the current standards for safety for the application discussed.

    Attached (hopefully) are the instructions for installation (first) & use (second).

    Attached Files Attached Files

  9. #9
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    Default Re: 4x7 Kitchen Island, questions regarding code in Phoenix AZ

    Still has to deal with the issues of getting the appropriate (derated?) conductors to the island, using the appropriate wiring methods, and getting a permit. Sure hope the slab wasn't PT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Morris View Post
    Howdy,

    I'm installing cabinetry for a kitchen island that is 4'x7', and will have an overhang on one end that will be approximately 18", bringing the total surface area to 4'x8.5', flat, no bar top.

    I've ran 12/3 (dedicated for DW and Disposal) and 12/2 (outlets) home runs through nonmetallic 3/4" conduit to the island, stripping back the romex where the wiring entered the conduit in the process. I did this while the slab was open after the plumbing was installed. I then buried the conduit approx 8" below the slab, then re-poured the concrete.

    A few questions I have based off of this information:

    a) The distance from where the electrical comes up from the slab to where the 12/3 dedicated (DW and disposal) outlet will be is about 2-3', and there is no open area between the front and back cabinets. Can I continue the nonmetallic conduit up to the outlet box and be within code?

    b) The non-dedicated outlets that are required on the island, can I install these outlets on the surface of the island? I've found flanged pop up outlets that I can use in this installation but I'm having difficulty finding the bit of code on this. Link is to the technical drawing of the outlet which the manufacturer advises is made specifically for kitchens - http://www.mockett.com/images/techni..._technical.gif

    I've linked a few pictures from SkyDrive of what I've got going on if it helps. Thanks for these forums and the folks that help with them.

    Thanks,
    Larry

    http://sdrv.ms/W41YtO
    http://sdrv.ms/VkmIBe
    http://sdrv.ms/W428kQ


    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 12-29-2012 at 05:40 PM.

  10. #10
    Larry Morris's Avatar
    Larry Morris Guest

    Default Re: 4x7 Kitchen Island, questions regarding code in Phoenix AZ

    Thanks everyone for the persistence and assistance. This will take me some time to get sorted out, but at least now I'm on the right track.


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