Power User Conference


Results 1 to 16 of 16
  1. #1
    Donnie Pipes's Avatar
    Donnie Pipes Guest

    Default Grounding requirements for Mobile Home.

    I recently purchased a used Mobile Home for lot I have in the hills. I noticed when I unhooked everything for the mover there was a ground rod connected directly to the breaker box inside the house. I haven't done this type of work since the mid 80's. Back then I run a ground back to the pole ground rod. Is this a new requirement? Thanks in advance for any help. I am really enjoying and getting great information from this site.

    Similar Threads:
    Inspection Referral

  2. #2
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
    Roger Frazee Guest

    Default Re: Grounding requirements for Mobile Home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Donnie Pipes View Post
    I recently purchased a used Mobile Home for lot I have in the hills. I noticed when I unhooked everything for the mover there was a ground rod connected directly to the breaker box inside the house. I haven't done this type of work since the mid 80's. Back then I run a ground back to the pole ground rod. Is this a new requirement? Thanks in advance for any help. I am really enjoying and getting great information from this site.
    This really is not a 'how to do it site' but a home inspection forum. Simply acquire the mobile home guidelines from your county building codes office.

    Typically you do not drive ground rods and connect them via grounding electrode conductors to the panelboard in the mobile home. The service equipment is located as a power pedestal external to the mobile home. It is here that you install your ground rods. A four wire feeder is then run to the panel in the mobile home and neutral and equipment grounds are then isolated in that panel. This four wire feeder can be a cord that plugs to a receptacle on the mobile home. A bonding wire then exits the mobile home panel and connects the the metal framing of the mobile home. That wire should already be installed from the factory. This is a summary as there are exceptions such as setting the mobile home on a permanent foundation.

    Last edited by Roger Frazee; 12-06-2011 at 08:08 AM.

  3. #3
    John Kogel's Avatar
    John Kogel is online now Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Southern Vancouver Island
    Posts
    3,987

    Default Re: Grounding requirements for Mobile Home.

    There you go, two opposing answers from trained pros and they're both close to your area. Descendents of the rebel army, maybe?

    (Boys, back then I ran, a feeder is run).

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  4. #4
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
    Roger Frazee Guest

    Default Re: Grounding requirements for Mobile Home.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    There you go, two opposing answers from trained pros and they're both close to your area. Descendents of the rebel army, maybe?

    (Boys, back then I ran, a feeder is run).
    Yes and your going to run into this difference of opinion quite often. Interestingly Jeff Sargent one of the senior authors of the NEC Handbook is of the opinion you do not require ground rods as 550.16 is all the grounding you need for the mobile home. That is of course assuming that the egc in the 4 wire feeder you run from the service equipment on a pedestal separate from the mobile home is sized properly.

    Also interesting is that Mark Cloutier of NFPA staff has this to say and it clearly supports Kens view

    "the two arrangements for service equipment installation and their associated grounding requirements are specified in 550.32(A) and (B). Section 550.32 (B) covers service equipment mounted on or in the mobile/manufactured home. Section 550.32(A) requires grounding at the service disconnecting means in accordance with 250.32. This arrangement where greater than 30 ft from the mobile home facilitates the installation of feeders to the required mobile home disconnect. The establishment of a grounding electrode system at the mobile home is required in order to comply with 250.32(A) and the grounding and bonding requirements of the feeder is required to comply with 250.32(B). Section 250.32(B)(1) requires the equipment-grounding conductor to be connected to the building or structure disconnecting means (see Article 225) and grounding electrode in the equipment supplied by the feeder or branch circuit. Additionally, 250.54 does not prohibit the installation of auxiliary grounding electrodes in the area of electrically operated equipment."

    Quoted by :

    Mark Cloutier

    NFPA Senior Electrical Engineer

    So flip a coin ... I can show you mobile home grounding guidelines and drawings from several jurisdictions that clearly show no ground rods connected to the mobile homes distribution panel board ... only at the service equipment located outside but not attached to the mobile home..

    One example here

    http://www.dora.state.co.us/electric...obileHomes.pdf

    My jurisdiction page 20 you will note that when four wire feeders are ran to the manufactured/mobile home no ground rod required 550.16 suffices the grounding. Then note that those that have 3 wire feeders require ground rods under 550.33(A) 2002 NEC

    http://www.westarenergy.com/cust_ops...nderground.pdf

    Another



    Another with details and the exception when the ground rods are required at the mobile/manufactured home

    http://morganservice.net/images/power%20pole1.jpg

    Another




  5. #5
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
    Roger Frazee Guest

    Default Re: Grounding requirements for Mobile Home.

    Quote Originally Posted by ken horak View Post
    Roger I do take issue with your post and do feel a grounding electrode is required.

    Well Jeffery Sargent may be of the OPINION that a grounding elctrode is not needed at a mobile home, but the book he helps author clearly requires it! The commentary in the Handbook you refernce states:
    " Where a building or structure is supplied by a feeder, 250.32(A) requires that a grounding electrode system be established at each building or structure supplied, unless one already exists. The equipment grounding bus must be bonded to the grounding electrode system as shown in 250.17, and the disconnecting enclosure, building steel,and interior metal water piping are also required to be bonded to the grounding electrode system. All exposed non-current-carrying metal parts of electrical equipment are required to be grounded through equipment grounding conductors connections to the equipment grounding bus at the building disconnecting means."

    This clearly explains 250.32 and that a grounding electrode is required.
    Please forward where you find that Mr. Sargent is in the opinion that a grounding electrode system is not required at a building or structure fed by a feeder.

    The one link you posted for Dora in Colorado, also states that article 250 should be followed for grounding. That means 250.32 is in play thus a grounding electrode is required.

    The other link is for a mobile home repair company hardly a reference to find the required grounding means. They do provide an nice EXAMPLE of a pole service for a mobile home, but thats all it is an example of the pole service. It does not address the requirements for the mobile home.

    The same for the utility company link. A nice EXAMPLE of a pole service. They also did not address the requirements of the mobile home as their authority ends at the meter.
    Sheesh Ken have you ever set a mobile home service? These are exactly what they hand you at the building codes department. The diagrams show the service equipment for the mobile home and reference NEC codes not NESC ..jeeez.

    The Dora example says the SERVICE EQUIPMENT shall comply with article 250 it says nothing about the mobile home distribution panel installed inside the mobile home by the manufacturer. It is a special occupancy Ken and mobile not meant to be on a permenant foundation ... so you can move it. If it is set on a permanent foundation then things change. The SERVICE EQUIPMENT is on a pedestal remote from the mobile home ..no more than 30 feet from it .. but that is arbitrary ...it depends. Would you be interested to know that around here they do not require ground rods for the mobile home structure ..unless .. the service equipment .. is more than 30 feet away.

    Food for thought .. since the service equipment is for the mobile home and not some other structure or dwelling and it is located within 30 feet of the mobile home and has a 4 wire feeder with egc and proper bonding practices to bring both structure and service equipment to equal potential .. how much good do you think ground rods at both the service equipment and the mobile home would be ? .... I'm thinking lightning strike here. ..... Could it be that it is considered as the same structure for grounding purposes ...hmmmmmm

    Anyway ... your asking to forward Jeffery Sargents opinion however your tone is as if I made the whole thing up ....

    Would you be so kind as to tell me your field experience with mobile home grounding ? I mean other than YOUR interepretation of what the NEC says about it ...Have you ever set a mobile home service ?? I noticed you copied and pasted earlier....

    Here let me give that a try .... this comment from an old inspector friend of mine now living in Indiana to a question on another forum

    "The neutral bar must be isolated from the grounding bar in that mobile or manufactured home and no grounding electrode is to be installed at the mobile home. The grounding electrode system to the manufactured home or mobile home with a remote service must get its grounding electrode system from the main service disconnect installed at that remote mobile home service disconnect."

    'Wg"

    So knock off the code is clear BS ... if you have ever discussed this with anyone of authority you would obviously know this is a controversial subject.

    Here is another copy and paste from MIKE HOLTS forum

    "Consider 550.32
    The service equipment for a mobile home must be within 30 ft. and grounding electrodes are installed at the service. I can only deduce that when a service is within this zone it is considered part of that structure (mobile home) .
    Now read the exception to 550.33 (A).

    What all of this means is that when the service falls outside the 30 ft. zone you will be required to install a service disconnect at the mobile home and you will be required to install grounding electrodes just like you would for a separate structure."

    Now I'm done with this KEN , I'll consider posting Jeffs commentary on the requirements for ges at mobile homes but it won't change your opinion as the code is clear to you. By the way Jeff wrote a book about inspecting mobile homes and due to his highly respected opinions and his status in the electrical industry as to what his opinion is I give him a bit of consideration and pay attention to how his opinions might enlighten my learning.

    After all any interpretation by an individual of nec language is an opinion of its intent and the truth is the NEC is strictly advisory as far as the NFPA is concerned. So install ground rods at the mobile home distribution panel/structure if you want either way I'll sleep at night.

    If you haven't figured this out yet .. if the service equipment is located on a pedestal within 30 feet of the mobile home structure and that service equipment has grounding in accordance with article 250 no ground rods are required to be connected to the mobile home distribution panel by every jurisdiction I'm experienced with because they consider it associated with the same structure as the MH... so take issue with that .... Your jurisdiction may not ..I have no idea .. maybe you could post their guidelines for grounding?

    Roger

    Last edited by Roger Frazee; 12-06-2011 at 09:19 AM. Reason: More ranting

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,095

    Default Re: Grounding requirements for Mobile Home.

    Before R.F. blows another gasket, you should establish just what edition of the NEC you are referring to. An individual's uncited opinion referencing an older edition doesn't mean much as pertains to a current installation meeting an newer edition's clarified requirements.

    Grounding and Bonding has pretty much been entirely re-written, clarified, and terms dropped, added, and re-defined over the last few editions.

    The OP has not indicated the specifics, it is a stretch to presume anything (permanent real property affixed-ness or chattle, temporary/mobile, etc. or IF this has been previously affixed elsewhere, nor where specifically (w/in state, county, city) was located.

    Nowhere do I devine an indication of an RV, nor reference to removing the "wheels"/chassis.

    To the OP: You will likely find this discussion has been moved in the future to the non-technical area "questions from home owners, home buyers and DIYers". Your best first resource is the your local authority having jurisdiction and determining status (real property or chattle) via records/title, first. It is possible, for example, that relocating to your planned location may not be allowed, or that special requirements may exist, depending on the history of both the manufactured home itself, where it has been, how placed, titled, etc. and any and all modifications which may have taken place, which may determine what is and is not allowed and/or required.


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,095

    Default Re: Grounding requirements for Mobile Home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Donnie Pipes View Post
    I recently purchased a used Mobile Home for lot I have in the hills. I noticed when I unhooked everything for the mover there was a ground rod connected directly to the breaker box inside the house. I haven't done this type of work since the mid 80's. Back then I run a ground back to the pole ground rod. Is this a new requirement? Thanks in advance for any help. I am really enjoying and getting great information from this site.
    There is nothing in the post above to indicate the age of the "mobile home", its status, etc. or where or how it was located and/or SET previously - let alone where or how it is intended to be located or set in the future.

    Check with your authority having jurisdiction - determine status, and determine applicable codes (including edition date and ammendments). Further investigate regarding the Utility.

    It sounds as though perhaps the lot "in the hills" may not have utility services or a foundation "yet".

    There may be a host of things required and to be considered before one could begin to consider your question. "Mobile Home" doesn't tell us much. Some jurisdictions do not allow "used" "mobile homes" (not HUD "manufactured homes") to be relocated, or if doing so, having to meet a host of locally adopted requirements and/or restrictions (such as a power cord not feeder hookup, to a ped, etc.).

    "Mobile home" does not equate to a "Manufactured Home". Temporary installations, park installations permanently affixed, are different.

    Still on the chasis/wheels - or otherwise not permanently affixed upon foundation, local electrodes are likely required, just as temporary installations.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 12-06-2011 at 07:51 AM.

  8. #8
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
    Roger Frazee Guest

    Default Re: Grounding requirements for Mobile Home.

    I did blow a gasket didn't I ...

    I have to give HG credit for bringing a little common sense to the thread as it will likely be moved.

    I made a brief comment on my experience with mobile homes making the assumption that the OP would understand that he needs to check things out as mentioned by HG. Then things went south ....

    Enough said ....


  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Thomson Georgia
    Posts
    13

    Default Re: Grounding requirements for Mobile Home.

    Wow you got some very in depth answers. Best advice is to check with your power company and your local inspector. Here the ground wire from the ground rod connects in the meter base. If you have any doubt in how to do it hire a licensed electrician. In the long run you will save time and money.


  10. #10
    James Duffin's Avatar
    James Duffin Guest

    Default Re: Grounding requirements for Mobile Home.

    In NC you drive a ground rod at the service and run a 4-wire feeder to the panel in the mobile. This is why the code a separate section for wiring mobile homes...to make it easy to understand.


  11. #11
    Jerry Peck's Avatar
    Jerry Peck is online now Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    22,833

    Default Re: Grounding requirements for Mobile Home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Donnie Pipes View Post
    I recently purchased a used Mobile Home for lot I have in the hills. I noticed when I unhooked everything for the mover there was a ground rod connected directly to the breaker box inside the house. I haven't done this type of work since the mid 80's. Back then I run a ground back to the pole ground rod. Is this a new requirement? Thanks in advance for any help. I am really enjoying and getting great information from this site.
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    There is nothing in the post above to indicate the age of the "mobile home", its status, etc. or where or how it was located and/or SET previously - let alone where or how it is intended to be located or set in the future.
    The age of the mobile home has NOTHING to do with how it is to be wired when set up in it NEW LOCATION: "I recently purchased a used Mobile Home for lot I have in the hills."

    The current standards for the connection and wiring of the mobile home apply - and by "current standards" I mean the code in effect in that area and the power company's requirements in effect for the new location.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,095

    Default Re: Grounding requirements for Mobile Home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The age of the mobile home has NOTHING to do with how it is to be wired when set up in it NEW LOCATION: "I recently purchased a used Mobile Home for lot I have in the hills."

    The current standards for the connection and wiring of the mobile home apply - and by "current standards" I mean the code in effect in that area and the power company's requirements in effect for the new location.
    It sure does, especially if one hopes to ever acquire an occupancy certificate for a residential type use for the CHATTLE on the lot in the hills in Arkansas!

    Even scores of FEMA's still unoccupiable no cert from last years troubles, and the OP has a used "mobile home" - i.e. USED - NOT a new set HUD home, real property proposition.

    The age matters, you betcha. Where exactly in AR matters, you betcha.
    Some areas you can't set and residentially occupy a used "mobile home" anywhere, period. Some, only existing in previously established park - move it and you lose on an older "mobile home".


  13. #13
    Jerry Peck's Avatar
    Jerry Peck is online now Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    22,833

    Default Re: Grounding requirements for Mobile Home.

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    It sure does, especially if one hopes to ever acquire an occupancy certificate for a residential type use for the CHATTLE on the lot in the hills in Arkansas!

    Even scores of FEMA's still unoccupiable no cert from last years troubles, and the OP has a used "mobile home" - i.e. USED - NOT a new set HUD home, real property proposition.

    The age matters, you betcha. Where exactly in AR matters, you betcha.
    Some areas you can't set and residentially occupy a used "mobile home" anywhere, period. Some, only existing in previously established park - move it and you lose on an older "mobile home".
    Age DOES NOT MATTER AS TO *HOW* the mobile home is set up and wired, which is the discussion at hand.

    Age DOES matter with regards as to whether or not you may be able to relocated it and set it up elsewhere - but that is not the discussion. Like usual, you try to re-direct the discussion when you are incorrect ... for the discussion at hand, i.e., on *how* the mobile home is to be connected and wired at its new location - *age does not matter*.

    *IF* we were discussing whether or not he will be permitted to set up the previously owned mobile home at the new location ... but we were not.

    Good try, though.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  14. #14
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
    Roger Frazee Guest

    Default Re: Grounding requirements for Mobile Home.

    I suppose I should throw up an apology to the forum. I can't seem keep off the key board when posts are made that are presented in the wrong forum. The first sentence of my 1st post was enough.

    Thing is I see the opportunity to discuss a little understood chapter in the NEC at least grounding requirements of mobile homes anyway... because ...there is very little consensus as to the requirements. It seems beneficial to all members here to determine some clarity and maybe just maybe someone here can shed some light on the subject.

    I honestly don't know if 250.32 should apply in all situations, it seems it does not from many jurisdictions standpoint. I only know that you often do not understand the code and for years you and even your inspectors misinterpret code and how it applies ... it is not at all unusual. Friendly discussion is healthy on subjects where opinions differ and many times these discussions will lead you into the light.. Anyway sometimes I often take things too personal. Please excuse my ranting earlier and hopefully your popcorn bag was full... a few of my buttons got pushed that I don't deal with very well. I simply like to know what I don't know ... but you gotta convince me ...

    BTW it has happened more than once on this forum when I had to swallow hard and say I was WRONG.


    Roger


  15. #15
    John Kogel's Avatar
    John Kogel is online now Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Southern Vancouver Island
    Posts
    3,987

    Default Re: Grounding requirements for Mobile Home.

    In the end, the authority in the OP's district will make the call.
    We are waiting for a rebuttal from Ken. We find these discussions educational, so don't stop posting what you know from your experience in the field.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  16. #16
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
    Roger Frazee Guest

    Default Re: Grounding requirements for Mobile Home.

    This is the section in Jeffs book on the requirement for mobile home grounding. As I said opinions differ but none the less my experience is local authority enforce what Jeff states in his book.

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •