Thread: TX TREC Report Length ... observation

I didn't want to continue the hijack of the thread above concerning a foundation that rolled into "report length" ... so there is this post.

I was at a CE Framing/Code class today and happened to be talking with another TREC HI who resides and inspects in a smaller municipality a couple hours West of TM's domicile.

The other HI brought up length of reports and I made an observation about a range of lengths of reports I generally deliver.

He came back at me and said he "never" delivers a report longer than "3-pages". He said the other HIs in the area (~ 24 of them) generally deliver reports from 20 to 60 pages, but he never exceeds 3-pages and all the RE-Agents love his reports and hate the other folks as there is far too much information and questions from the buyers.

I questioned him several times about how he could get the current TREC template (base pages are 6-7) down to 3-pages? He said there is too much white space on the TREC template and he removes it.

I'm still baffled as the dang Title Page is 1-1/4 pages long with just the required TREC verbiage.

I quickly backed away from the conversation as I knew where the conversation would go if I continued.

BTW - he is not a "newbie" either.

Go figure.

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Nolan,

It's the "oldies" I've learn over the years that do not follow TREC rules and regulations.

I know several who never call out things like fans to the attic, air gaps, AFCI's, GFCI's just list a few.

One I know personally in Plano, has not even added a picture to his report (not required I know) in all the years I've known him and his reports are no longer than 6-7 pages and he amazing gets some big bucks cause his reports sells houses accordingly to the Realtors.

rick

He said, "all the RE's love his reports" ???? ALL???

Just who does this guy work for?

Red flag....big ole red flag.

3 page report, Man could I get other stuff done if I could figure out how to do that. I've seen some pretty short reports and yes realtors all love them. Total garbage.
For me, Condo +/-40 pages; House +/- 60 pages

Interesting.
I never tried it, but,...
Eliminate the white space.
Comments only 1 - 5/6 words.
No pics.
No disclaimers.
Smaller font size on all except the actual report info.
That would make it smaller.

I read something by Cahill about an engineer that wrote an 11 word report.
Roof shot. Foundation broken, etc...I don't recall the exact wording.

Maybe he is the guy I keep following that all the sellers wonder why "their inspector" did not mention that.
We've known all along that agent friendly, house friendly, none alarmist, fair to the house (and what ever other realtor speak terms you can find) will get more business (at least in the short term) but I have to be able to sleep at night.
There are some good realtors out there that want a good report to protect them and their clients. I choose to work with them, or rather they choose to work with me and the rest just never call back.

Some folks add the pages for their summary which with the pics is many pages. Basically another small report. Take that away and the vast majority minus pages of home maintenance tips and many more pages of disclaimers and their reports are not going to more than 16 to 20 pages. I do not count the fluff and bull at all as part of the report. Mine vary from as little as 16 pages to about the mid 20's. If that can't get a real report I do not know what can.

Markus' report for a condo at 40 + pages. Now take away the smaller summary report and all the dribble and what do you really have. I would guess that that report on the average condo would not be any pages at all.

3 pages, 5 pages, ten pages...Now that is a bit ridiculous but it would be nice. A nice clean sheet report naming only the concerns and being done with it.....can we say 4 or 5 inspections a day. Give them a laundry list and away you go. I still don't think that is possible but I am sure that some think my 20 page "real report" is impossible as well.

I can guaranty you that most folks out there inspecting are in that 20 page range if you delete the summary and half of the absolutely ridiculous fluff and hype.

All of you know that that majority of concerns found in a home can be explained and pictured in relatively small space. Some next to nothing.

A leak from the roof maybe a bit deeper. The HVAC system is generally my longest section between Heat, AC and duct work. That takes a good bit of space and pictures.

The roof takes many pictures only for the sake that I take many views of the roof and include them in the report including several close up pics around different areas of the roof show wear and age of the shingles.

Foundation with out practically any finding is pretty short.

Pictures of ridge beam cracks and brick cracks and drywall cracks and tile cracks and doors out of square, cracks over and under windows, garage floor cracks etc etc etc can take up a bit of space with the pictures and mentioned area locations. I guess the HVAC and foundation issues are always the biggest sections. Of course the foundation issues are spread out thru several sections. If you already mentioned it in another section why mention it 2, 3 or 4 more times thru the rest of the report and then have a summary that is half the length of the report.

Windows usually not much on the average home. Appliances just about nothing with the exception of a quick comment and a pic if warranted.

Electric service and branch circuits range vastly from home to home. Sometimes that can get a bit out of control.

Now with any section if there is a serious amount of concerns I touch on every area of concern briefly as a multitude of examples such as the electric section and then pass it all, in whole to an electrician.

Even foundation I will hit on the major concerns and mention briefly the vast concerns and pass it off to a foundation company or engineer.

There is just no reason what so evr to go on for days with disclaimers and maintenance tips about a system that has vest concerns.........It is being past on to the appropriate tradesman or professional for a second follow up complete evaluation. (yes if it is that bad off...a complete follow up evaluation for a full list of repairs and pricing after you did the over all eval for the concerns in the home) If there is that much wrong with it and you touched down on all of it....pass it off to the next person in line. Why go off for five pages about code history and best building practices and the history of construction over the decades and a tip on fixing leaky faucets and the what ifs and maybe's and the oh my God....you are gonna die.

I have seen reports that included a very old water heater that was in obvious total disrepair, pictures attached and the damn report went on with all included mumbo jumbo for 3 pages about ....exactly nothing of any importants what so ever, Total foolishness. This particular water heat should have had a couple pictures attached with the wording. "Found water heater in the garage closet. It appears it passed on some time ago. It is stinking pretty bad and needs to be changed out immediately if not sooner. The sellers should call the coroners office immediately and have the dead carcass removed". Now include a couple pics with type, age, fuel type, flue, gas line, sediment trap or not, drain pan and draining where, how high of the floor, rotted water connection, tpr valve and how and where it drains etc etc etc and you are done.......Why 2 pages of crap. Worse case...1 page

I have seen vast amount of reports where each picture takes up a half of a page and there were 6 pictures of the same subject matter. There is 3 pages right there. A picture for most of what I see in reports could have been seen with a picture 25% of that size with no eye strain or guessing what the picture is all about. Absolute hype and fluff boasting their reports are 40 to 60 pages and the other inspector was 16 to 25.

To each his own folks but we all know here that 3 to ten pages do not cut it nowadays. 40, 60, 100, 125 pages on the average home is strictly hype , fluff and eye strain that needs to be given out with Tylenol.

I was given a report the other day that mentioned about every item in the home....No kidding here...North of Dallas area. I seriously mean every item in the home.

The fact of the matter was that I read exactly 5 items that were listed as deficient. That report was 60 pages............................................. ...........

Five items listed as deficient..................... I am not stuttering.

God bless that inspector. I happen to find three times more than that inspector. Yes....3 times more. Mostly little things but some major or some what major. My report was 21 pages. Like I said mostly little things wrong with a quick note.

The buyer actually questioned me ab iut the length of my report. "How come he had so much stuff in his report and it was 60 pages and you had so little in comparison and it was 21 pages.

I went over the findings in the home in great detail with her knowing she already read the other report in detail. Her question was still "How come he still found so much more then you"?

I had to go over both reports side by side and section by section to explain to her what was really going on. I used a highlighter to mark the actual findings of the other inspector. Mine were already printed out in red (yes I did the report on site. She was over 2 hours late. The only reason I stayed was I did not have another inspection and I was going to see relatives down the road a bit or I would have been history long before that) For every finding he had I had the same findings and then like I said I had three times the findings explained in detail with pictures.

The woman finally said " thank you so much. I almost did not get a home inspection because this inspection report from the last inspector had so much detail in it I had a hard time thinking of how any inspector could find anything else."

Hype and fluff folks. The last inspector screwed up big time but with all his ridiculous insertion of bull and hype and fluff the findings were hidden so deep that this lady actually was thinking that all his report was findings of concern in the home. To top it all off I had three times the findings in a third lees of a report and had great detail on each finding with pictures. She actual was thinking that I screwed up. That is how so many inspectors get a great amount of referrals from Realtors and such. Their reports are considered to be outstanding. Hm, but with a third of the findings.

All that useless crap that was inserted that had nothing to do with the findings in the home what the hearts and minds over of the clients and Realtors even though it was totaly screwed up and the inspector should have been hung out to dry. Yes, he hets a serious amount of Realtor referrals. I will not mention his name for the sake of consideration but he does read this board often and I know for a fact he will know who I am talking about. The consideratio I am thinking of....Use this as a wake up call. Slow down. Stop trying to impress so much with all the bull and do the job you are being paid for which is.....Looking out for you clients best interest and "REDUCE" the risk in the home buying process. You are getting so deep into investigating every little matter that you are going right by the next one. You are so in tuned to impressing with your lengthly reports thst you are no longer putting in what is necessary into the report.

Everyone knows that the vast majority of a home inspection is a walk by with picture taking logging it into the brain cells. In a 2000 square foot home there is a vast amount of open space. In that open space you are seeing particular details of concerns in the home. As you go thru the rest of the home the details all come together as one big picture. Do not try to create a picture with one detail. You cannot paint a landscape by looking at a patch of grass 2 feet by 2 feet. Save the deep investigating on items of concern. This is not brain surgery. No matter how much book reading you do this home inspection thing is still an accumulation of acquired knowledge over the years that puts these pictures together for you. Don't get lost in every minute detail but make sure you find all the concerns.

OK

I am done now. I just wanted to give all of you some light reading for the day. Enjoy and happy inspecting. happen to not be inspecting this morning so you had to put up with me

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

I doubt it, but it is the thought that counts. One can always hope.



And, that is because, light writing is your forte. No forethought, no attention to syntax or spelling . . . just let the gas pass as it will.

Just think about it, all of that wisdom being spewed forth by someone who admits he does not, never has, and never will use an inspection agreement with his clients.

But wait, that cannot be true. For, you see, Texas mandates E&O insurance for HIs. All E&O policies require a written agreement for all inspections. So then, if TM would lie about that, what else is he lying about?

You know I will go with about anything anyone says and brush it off but as far as lying....that would never happen from this man. If anything I am so honest it has hurt me financially.

Yes...I have E+O insurance. Yes I stated on my application that I do not have an agreement signed for home inspections. Yes, they carry me for home inspection E+O. I state that the only agreement anyone gets from me is the page and a half of the reporting form that is in every home inspectors reports that is the what and the what nots of home inspection....period. So you might want to rethink that one my dear associate Aaron.

Is there anything else you would like to know.

I do not have and never have had any of my clients sign an inspection agreement or limitation to liability. Never have and never will. It is a bunch of horse crap. If you just blatantly miss something that was not hidden it matters not about an agreement of any kind in this here licensed state of TX. All a limitation of liability does is brush some of the ignorant off with them thinking they signed it so it will hold. I do not need to do that with my clients.

56 years of living and no one ever came back with any legitimate complaint that held water and no I have never had to go to court over such. Building, remodeling and inspecting all my working life.


Can you say that Aaron. Somehow I think not. I must be doing something right. I guess one of those things is never lying or hiding behind anything. I am upfront with every person I talk to. I tell them like it is and how it is not. No holds barred. Can you say the same.....I think not.

You really need to think before you write.

Hm....did you think I was passing that lengthily bloated post toward you. I wasn't but I could if you wish. I would be fine with that if that is what you really want. You obviously must have thought that with the direct attack back toward me.

Seriously Aaron. You state, how was it written, "all of that wisdom that was spewed forth" or something like that. You might want to pay a little more attention to some of that wisdom spewed forth. I think it will do you a serious amount of good. If nothing else it will make you a better man. You see, other folks actually have some intellectual thought of their own and there is a lot to be gleaned from it. I know you do not believe so, other than some long dead author that you live by their every word. It is time to come back into the land of the living and smell the coffee. It is time to start understanding that you are not always far above everyone around you. Little dumb folks like me can offer so much, if you were willing to understand that you, yes even you, can learn a lot from. You look to the wordly men like authors and folks with PHDs that you believe are beyond approach of the mere mortals with this glimmer in your eye and are so blided at times you truely believe they are Gods. They are just mere mortals like me. Sometimes you have to look down (as far as you are concerned) to know what's up.

End of words of wisdom 2

Ted, I can understand how you might find lengthy reports BS because so many are. Some of the comments in your post are fairly true, while others well ...
As far as my reports, I despise CYA, dribble and maintenance suggestion garbage in reports.
I have maybe a 1/2 page CYA in my report, regardless whether it is a 30,60 or 90 page report. Maintenance and dribble that needs to be there because most people aren't in the trades, 2 pages complete. The last page of the report is 1 page of legalese.
I do a room by room and system by system report. Each room and system gets typically 2 pages. 1 page outlining what that room contains or system is and its' components. 1 page with pics showing defects. On a 2 bedroom condo that comes out to ~22 pages
Each amenity such as a deck, balcony, fireplace, etc. gets 1/2 to 1 page depending.
Cover page, Prop Condition, Ex Sum and Defect Sum ~ 6 pages
Condo Assoc. considerations 1-2 pages
Add in a few more for rough conditions and you have a real report.
Since I specialize in 'troubled buildings' my defect lists tend to be quite long. I've had 10-12 page Defect Summaries on houses, line after line of defects.
I use 12 point font with not a whole lot of white space.
Our SOP requires us to describe X throughout the house. I know many inspectors don't do that. Quite frankly many IL reports I have seen, IMnotsoHO, do not meet the letter or intent of our SOP. If those guys ever have a problem it will probably be a big one. Doing a detailed report is the best form of CYA.
Yes, inspectors and clients sometimes complain about having too detailed information in a report. However, if questions arise at some point having those details present in your report can make a world of difference in what happens next.
Having been hired many times to do a house after the client already paid Mr. 10 page checkbox report to do it, I am well aware of the shortcomings of such reports. I have also seen 40 page reports in fancy binders with multi-colored ad pages that looked awesome but weren't worth squat.
If you are doing 4-5 inspections a day Ted, well that would explain a lot.

I just looked at the inspection report for our house we bought about 3 years ago. You could stop reading at page 5 of 21 if you wanted to, and if you removed the cover page and table of contents, that would be 3 pages.

The report was defective, however. The inspector noted that the ground fault outlet and fan in the main bath were not working properly. What he didn't note was that both were wired by a complete idiot. I don't remember all the mistakes, but the fan was wired in series with the light, so it was a variable speed fan if you wanted to keep different size light bulbs available. ;-)

Originally Posted by Markus Keller

Ted, I can understand how you might find lengthy reports BS because so many are. Some of the comments in your post are fairly true, while others well ...
As far as my reports, I despise CYA, dribble and maintenance suggestion garbage in reports.
I have maybe a 1/2 page CYA in my report, regardless whether it is a 30,60 or 90 page report. Maintenance and dribble that needs to be there because most people aren't in the trades, 2 pages complete. The last page of the report is 1 page of legalese.
I do a room by room and system by system report. Each room and system gets typically 2 pages. 1 page outlining what that room contains or system is and its' components. 1 page with pics showing defects. On a 2 bedroom condo that comes out to ~22 pages
Each amenity such as a deck, balcony, fireplace, etc. gets 1/2 to 1 page depending.
Cover page, Prop Condition, Ex Sum and Defect Sum ~ 6 pages
Condo Assoc. considerations 1-2 pages
Add in a few more for rough conditions and you have a real report.
Since I specialize in 'troubled buildings' my defect lists tend to be quite long. I've had 10-12 page Defect Summaries on houses, line after line of defects.
I use 12 point font with not a whole lot of white space.
Our SOP requires us to describe X throughout the house. I know many inspectors don't do that. Quite frankly many IL reports I have seen, IMnotsoHO, do not meet the letter or intent of our SOP. If those guys ever have a problem it will probably be a big one. Doing a detailed report is the best form of CYA.
Yes, inspectors and clients sometimes complain about having too detailed information in a report. However, if questions arise at some point having those details present in your report can make a world of difference in what happens next.
Having been hired many times to do a house after the client already paid Mr. 10 page checkbox report to do it, I am well aware of the shortcomings of such reports. I have also seen 40 page reports in fancy binders with multi-colored ad pages that looked awesome but weren't worth squat.
If you are doing 4-5 inspections a day Ted, well that would explain a lot.

Now that is exactly what I am taking about. A summary is not the report . It is a summary of the report. I do not do summaries.

Legalese is not included in the slightest in my reports and has nothing to do with the concerns of their home. HOAs or condo rules and regs and who is responsible for what have nothing to do with the condition of their home they are thinking of buying. All of that is included with the paper work with the sale of the home. Why list it all if it is already included with the purchase.

Maintenance tips a minimal in my reports. Drain water heater, change filters, caulk, paint all take a few words at best. Soil line to low and pockets form around the perimeter of the home. Soil line to high and or above the bottom of the brick line, grading of the rear yard is toward the home instead of around the home may sound like maintenance tips but are actually just part of my report and not maintenance tips. There is no reason to explain them twice or three times.

Not quite sure where you got the idea I was doing 4 or 5 inspections a day other than poking fun at the three page report. Now days I am lucky to do one and would be quite happy with that.

When you are reporting on a particular item the maintenance tips are obvious as to what should be done. Disclaimers have no part of my report and I think it is totally unnecessary.

As far as listing everything in a room I can see where you would have a 300 page report. I do not list every item in a room and as far as I am concerned totally unnecessary. To list every outlet and every switch and every window and every door and every closet and every piece of carpet....I am not quite sure why anyone would do that. They want to know the concerns in there home not a laundry list of every item in it.

Lets say there is nothing going on with a deck. I am not sure why it is listed other than the norm of all appears to be in good order. Of course you will always find something up with it but half the time it is a quick note and a picture.

The defect summary gets me in all the reports I see. They all start out with the summary which is half the length of the report with all the pictures and all the notes. Then the folks go over the report and see all the pictures and all the notes again. Then they get to the legal realm and then the book on home maintenance tips. Then to the disclaimers or the disclaimers are mixed throughout the report and the history of reporting and the history of codes and the days of when you built a home and it collapsed and killed someone then you would be killed.

I am talking about the length of the report that is real and contributes anything to the home buyer about the concerns in their new home.

As far as CYA. CYA about what. Do your job of identifying the concerns in the home. That is the only CYA you could ever need.

As far as the letter of the SOPs. The letter of the SOPs may wish you to note an item. If there is nothing wrong with it you note it and your done. An explanation and pictures and extensive detail and history is felonious and cruel to the purchaser of the home.

Boy am I bored today. I had no inspections and I thought I was going to so made no plans and just became home bound for the day.

Oh yeah.....4 to 5 inspections a day......I wish. Work 3 to 4 months and take the rest of the year off Lets see.....80 a month for 4 months (at 5 days)....320 in 4 months times my minimum.....I would be happy with that. Lots of time to rest up and piss folks off on here

Where is that Aaron fella????????

Condo Assoc Cond are provided as a courtesy to the client. Has absolutely nothing to do with what they receive from anyone else.
This area covers conditions observed during normal passage through and about the property to do the inspection of the unit or related ownership components such as parking space, etc.
There are two primary immediate costs to purchase and ownership.
- purchase cost
- near term costs after purchase
If the Condo building itself shows signs of deferred maintenance or problems, this could translate into additional costs or special assessments in the near term that may not make the purchase a feasible option for a particular client.
I believe it is important to inform clients of such obvious possibilities. You probably don't.
No summary, that's great. So no overall explanation for the layman (client) or their attorney to quickly get a grasp of conditions.
Defect Summary
Defect:
Recommendation:
Maybe your lack of business should tell you something besides we are in a bad economy.

AD: those are exactly The reports i had in mind. I've Done Second inspections After Quite Ã* Few of those.

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

TM: You are completely, over the top, hands down FOS.

AD

Nope. They fixed that when I was in the hospital for a week. I was just told with my surgeons follow up that the first day and a half was the most crucial time. They did not think I was going to make it unless I got past the first day and a half do tho the mass infection my system was under.

No....I am no longer full of sh$$ they got rid of all that. And that is official. Can you say the same

MK

In case you are wondering about summaries.....You pall Aaron with his 117 page reports does not due summaries. Summaries are for folks that do not want to read the whole report. They are also for inspectors that have tremendously bloated reports that the poor buyers have to filter thru so much crap. I for one do not do summaries for your beloved CYAs. Aaron does not due summaries because he want the entrety of his report read and not just skimmed thru.

In our state the entire report has to be disclosed to future buyers so everyone sees the entire report anyway.

"So no overall explanation for the layman"

The whole report is in laymans terms and straight to the point with out all the filler. There is no need for a summary. They go from section to section and find the concerns with each section because they are not buried so deep they need a shovel to dig them out.

Aaron

"I believe you may have the answer there. TM seems a lot like a Realtor speed dial boy"

Realtors hate me because I am so straight to the point. They do not like the fact that anyone looking at my report can flip from page to page and see exactly what the concerns are so bold and in red they stick right in their faces with multiple pics to back it up. They hate it and my clients love it. I cannot hold Realtor referrals for any length of time. Thank God for client referrals and the internet or I would not have enough work to feed myself for the year.

MK and AD

Where the heck are you getting that I do or have ever done 4 to 5 a day. You folks might want to reread the posts.

Not that it really matters but in NC a summary is a required part of the report.

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

TM: Relax. Just pulling your leg a bit. There's no need to have someone hand you down your shootin' iron . . . Go have a drink. It's Saturday, after all.

OK

Margaritas at your house. Top shelf on the rocks....hold the salt.... The stomach is still trying to get back to normal.

Nolan, it's just not possible to have a 3 page report without violating TREC regulations and incurring a nice $5,000 fine. You can't have fonts smaller than what TREC does and that would be the only way to have less than 3 pages. Their blank report is longer!

Originally Posted by Dominic Maricic

Nolan, it's just not possible to have a 3 page report without violating TREC regulations and incurring a nice $5,000 fine. Their blank report is longer!

Dom,

I know that, you know that and "most" of the reputable TX TREC-Licensed HIs know that ... but this particular HI was quite proud of what he has been doing and appears to continue to do.

FYI - further research is underway.

Originally Posted by Nolan Kienitz

Dom,

I know that, you know that and "most" of the reputable TX TREC-Licensed HIs know that ... but this particular HI was quite proud of what he has been doing and appears to continue to do.

FYI - further research is underway.

Great. Let me know how it goes. I hate seeing guys ripping people off. I heard of another TX inspector doing the same thing, I wonder if it's the same guy.

Originally Posted by Rick Hurst

Nolan,

It's the "oldies" I've learn over the years that do not follow TREC rules and regulations.

I know several who never call out things like fans to the attic, air gaps, AFCI's, GFCI's just list a few.

One I know personally in Plano, has not even added a picture to his report (not required I know) in all the years I've known him and his reports are no longer than 6-7 pages and he amazing gets some big bucks cause his reports sells houses accordingly to the Realtors.

rick

I have an inspector/friend who does the same exact type of inspection / report - 1-1.5 hrs for the inspection and a vague, not all inclusive 6-8 page report with no photos. Same scenario - busy all the time, sometimes 3 inspections in a day. Unbelievable...

Originally Posted by Dominic Maricic

Nolan, it's just not possible to have a 3 page report without violating TREC regulations and incurring a nice $5,000 fine. You can have fonts smaller than what TREC does and that would be the only way to have less than 3 pages. Their blank report is longer!

Dom,

From the TREC rules:

(B) the inspector may change the typeface, provided that fonts are no smaller than those used in the printed version of the standard form;

Fonts can be no smaller than what is in the standard form.

Emmanuel,

Sorry that's a typo, it should be can't not can (hence the comment about it being the only way it's even possible). We spent a long time going back and forth with TREC about font sizes. Thanks to guys like Nolan and Mike Boyett for helping with that over the years.