Thread: Two page home inspection report

This report consisted of the cover page, two pages of terminology/glossary and two pages of findings.

Inspection was conducted on an 1888 semi detached house.

My report conducted today was 31 pages.

My clients and agent saw this chaps report on the vendors dinning room table. They all had a good laugh and wondered why anyone would leave such a report out on the table considering how light in substance it was.

This report didn't come close to describing the issues at this house and the inspector who compiled this report is a P.Eng!

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Hmmm, maybe you guys do need licensing....

That's a pretty sophisticated report for having been done in 1888 ... wait a minute ... 'on an 1888' ... not 'in 1888' ...

Looks to me to be a "FAIR" report.

I am sure there was a "FAIR" price for it also.

The fair price the vendors paid will not be sitting too well with them if my client comes back to them and wants a price reduction and the furnace inspected. Not to mention the third floor stair case to an third bedroom which in my opinion was not done under permit.

The steps rise/run was out, the pickets with 5.75" spacing. Non graspable hand rail, and the width of tread was only 7".

A cheater vent installed on third floor at an angle. (never seen one installed on an angle)

Overfusing in the electrical panel, and the grounding wire from panel not bonded to the incoming water line which was spliced with Shark Bite fittings.

Basement steps - rotted at base of stringer, ungraspable hand rail, weakened treads..

Only a sample of what I found that was not mentioned in the original report or if it was mentioned it was marked 'fair.'

I love the flue pipe coming up through the stairs.

I don't know that term "cheater vent". Twenty-five years ago I knew a very good inspector that used a 3 page report that was very similar to that one. My guess is that the previous inspector was very old timer in this business.

I come across those garbage reports from time to time. Not as much as during the boom though. From my experience its usually an old guy or some newbie who has been franchise trained.

I always wondered why a P.E. would do home inspections. They must have sucked at engineering. One would also have to consider what engineering field?

Tom,

Thats not a flue, its a heat supply duct.

The inspector is a trained mechanical engineer from a university in Pakistan.
Not a franchise, and he is fairly young probably in his late 20's to mid 30's.

Couldn't find that this inspector belongs to any association fwiw.

Don't know what he charged as an inspection fee either.

I know an ME in this area that had a home inspection business on the side for a few years. He even had a newspaper article about home inspections. This is probably close to 15-20 years ago. He wrote a book on becoming a home inspector and still sells it (self-published). He must have made a tidy bundle on the book by now.

Originally Posted by Lon Henderson

I don't know that term "cheater vent". Twenty-five years ago I knew a very good inspector that used a 3 page report that was very similar to that one. My guess is that the previous inspector was very old timer in this business.

Air Admittance Valve, There are two types. Black for trailer (RV) and White (Oatey) usable in home.

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

Air Admittance Valve, There are two types. Black for trailer (RV) and White (Oatey) usable in home.

Oh, sure. Thanks. Around here they just call them Studors regardless of who made them.

I ran into a similar report last week. The seller had the inspection done and left it as part of the disclosure statement. The difference between the one posted and the one I saw? The one I saw had all the comments handwritten and was not legible! The price was listed on the back page...$200. Even if the report was accurate, $200 is a waste of money for something that can't be read.

I don't know about colour of cheater vents, but all I ever see is black.

P.S. As it turns out my clients did not purchase the home due to the myriad of problems noted by me in the report.

Might be a good example of why licensing doesn't hurt, not that any should invite more government involvement in their lives. In Michigan, there is no legal definition of what constitutes a home inspection report; no standards of practice, &c if one does not belong to an association of home inspectors. Consequently, an e-mail listing major problems could be a home inspection report. Licensing is certainly a double-edged blade.

'Fair' means 'not functioning properly or needs repair.' The explanation of terms is at the bottom of the page. It's a "poor" and misleading choice of terms. If he wrote 'not functioning properly' in place of 'fair', basically, nothing in his report is functioning properly. Hard to argue with that.

That report is 'not functioning properly or needs repair'. But I would call it Poor, not Fair.

Raymond, did you get rusted steel clamps on that water pipe? No, probably had a long enough list already.

Air Admittance Valve (AAV) is the better choice, tells the client what it does.
It needs to be vertical or it will bind up and leak stinky methane gas, or no, Raymond, you said methane doesn't stink.

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

Air Admittance Valve, There are two types. Black for trailer (RV) and White (Oatey) usable in home.

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

I don't know about colour of cheater vents, but all I ever see is black.

P.S. As it turns out my clients did not purchase the home due to the myriad of problems noted by me in the report.

I keep forgetting you are in the north contry.
The white by Oatey (what I am use to) has testing behind it to met standards and can be used in certain applications where the black has nothing backing it up and only can be used in RV installations by codes. There is a big price difference Black=$ 3, White=$ 15 if I remember right. Both are sold in the big box stores and the sales people don't know the difference for uses.

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

I keep forgetting you are in the north contry.
The white by Oatey (what I am use to) has testing behind it to met standards and can be used in certain applications where the black has nothing backing it up and only can be used in RV installations by codes. There is a big price difference Black=$ 3, White=$ 15 if I remember right. Both are sold in the big box stores and the sales people don't know the difference for uses.

The color is not a determinant of quality. Black is ABS plastic and white is PVC plastic. Both Oatey and Studor make vents for both types of DWV material. Both have several different models of vent available in both plastics. For example:

Sure-Vent in PVC

Sure-Vent in ABS

If you see a black vent valve it is most likely a mechanical vent. They are spring loaded and when the spring fails it will fail with the valve in the open position. They are not approved for residential construction. You will find them in manufactured homes.... They cost less...

The White/Tan color vents are AAV's (air admittance valve). They work on air pressure and do not depend on a spring. This is your Studor, Oatey, etc.. Brand type vent valve.

In commercial operations you might also see red or green AAV's, but they are not common.

With a mechanical vent you can see the spring inside of it through the slits on the side of the vent. If you see a black vent valve or if you can see a spring in it you are safe in calling it out, unless it is a manufactured home.

Originally Posted by Corn Walker

The color is not a determinant of quality. Black is ABS plastic and white is PVC plastic. Both Oatey and Studor make vents for both types of DWV material. Both have several different models of vent available in both plastics. For example:

Sure-Vent in PVC

Sure-Vent in ABS

Both still use the "white" plastic AAV.....

I have also seen plastic chrome vents.

John K,
I didn't see the metal pipe hangers, but in the scheme of things with all the other major issues it was the least of the concerns. Btw the clients did not proceed with the sale.

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

Both still use the "white" plastic AAV.....

I believe both Studor and Oatey only make white-bodied AAVs these days (for residential applications, at least). Studor's AAV is made of white ABS while Oatey's is white PVC. The adaptors are either white PVC or black ABS.

If you're looking at something older you need to make a positive identification of the valve - in no case can you rely solely on color as a determinant of the valve type.

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

Air Admittance Valve, There are two types. Black for trailer (RV) and White (Oatey) usable in home.

Actually, there is only one type of "air admittance valve" (AAV), the other is a "mechanical vent".

There are several brands and manufacturers of AAVs, and there are several brands and manufacturers of mechanical vents.

Mechanical vents are allowed in Mobile Homes/Manufactured Homes, but they are not allowed in conventional built or modular built construction. Mobile homes are under the HUD code, conventional built and modular are under the building codes.

Conventional built and modular allow AAVs, not mechanical vents.

Look through the openings in the sides of it and you will see the spring in the mechanical vent, the spring holds the valve closed (i.e., "mechanical"), while air pressure differences open and close the AAV (gravity and positive pressure close it, negative pressure opens the AAV to allow air in, but not out).

Originally Posted by Benjamin Thompson

Hmmm, maybe you guys do need licensing....

If he really is a P.Eng., then he is licensed. He also needs a C of A (in addition to his license) from the PEO to represent himself to the public as a P.Eng.

The PEO has stated that they will hold P.Eng's doing home inspections to the same standards as Engineers who do other Engineering work.

Originally Posted by Stuart Brooks

I always wondered why a P.E. would do home inspections. They must have sucked at engineering. One would also have to consider what engineering field?

Ever work for an Engineering company? it's not for everybody, or even every Engineer - at least not this one

Originally Posted by David Wood

If he really is a P.Eng., then he is licensed. He also needs a C of A (in addition to his license) from the PEO to represent himself to the public as a P.Eng.

The PEO has stated that they will hold P.Eng's doing home inspections to the same standards as Engineers who do other Engineering work.

This is a whole nuther topic, but as we are getting the licensing ball rolling here in Colorado, I have repeatedly asked what trade, what profession, or anything, has licensing really made better.....Every electrician, plumber, GC, masseuse. physical therapist, and driver in this state are licensed and yet somehow, there continue to be really lousy practitioners. The only thing that eventually weeds out the incompetent and criminal is the marketplace and courts. Licensing is zero help. But it does provide employment for a few more bureaucrats.

Originally Posted by Lon Henderson

This is a whole nuther topic, but as we are getting the licensing ball rolling here in Colorado, I have repeatedly asked what trade, what profession, or anything, has licensing really made better.....Every electrician, plumber, GC, masseuse. physical therapist, and driver in this state are licensed and yet somehow, there continue to be really lousy practitioners. The only thing that eventually weeds out the incompetent and criminal is the marketplace and courts. Licensing is zero help. But it does provide employment for a few more bureaucrats.

You miss the real purpose of licensing. It's not to employ bureaucrats - that's your bias talking. Instead licensure is a tool to keep competition out of the marketplace. By raising the barrier to entry, established companies can become entrenched while keeping new competition to a minimum. Why else is it usually the large companies that argue and lobby in favor of more licensing regulations (which is not to be confused with all regulations, mind you)?

Originally Posted by Corn Walker

You miss the real purpose of licensing. It's not to employ bureaucrats - that's your bias talking. Instead licensure is a tool to keep competition out of the marketplace. By raising the barrier to entry, established companies can become entrenched while keeping new competition to a minimum. Why else is it usually the large companies that argue and lobby in favor of more licensing regulations (which is not to be confused with all regulations, mind you)?

May be true for some places, but we got licensing 3 years ago and now have more inspectors than the market will bear.

The bar was set low so as not to exclude anyone that can write the NACHI exam with an open book. Must not discriminate and must not turn a potential license fee away. It is easy to get the license, so why not give it a shot?

We don't have licencing in Ontario (yet) and there are already too many inspectors plying their trade. We also have several inspection schools promising lucrative careers, with easy money, and a rewarding career ... blah, blah...

The real money to be made is not inspecting but running a home inspection school. To bad some of the schools have to promote their wares by falsely advertising how great the inspection business is.

Originally Posted by John Kogel

May be true for some places, but we got licensing 3 years ago and now have more inspectors than the market will bear.

The bar was set low so as not to exclude anyone that can write the NACHI exam with an open book. Must not discriminate and must not turn a potential license fee away. It is easy to get the license, so why not give it a shot?

Poor licensing is worse than no licensing in many aspects! But, if it is any consolation normally in a licensed State we have seen the numbers drop off dramatically after 2-3 years or the second license renewal. In my State of Tennessee we went from a high of 1140+- licensed insepctors in December of 2010 to less than 400 now! TN has a population of 6.4 Million, so these numbers seem to be pretty good if not a little on the low side.

Originally Posted by Corn Walker

You miss the real purpose of licensing. It's not to employ bureaucrats - that's your bias talking. Instead licensure is a tool to keep competition out of the marketplace. By raising the barrier to entry, established companies can become entrenched while keeping new competition to a minimum. Why else is it usually the large companies that argue and lobby in favor of more licensing regulations (which is not to be confused with all regulations, mind you)?

Licensing could be made so onerous that it does lock out newcomers, but after examining every state and province, none have licensing that creates a hurdle that a twelve year old couldn't get over (with a fake ID). Here, the appraisers actually did create such a brutal mentorship program that they made it excruciating for new appraisers to break in. It has not helped their industry. The main purpose of licensing is to provide feel good regulation for the ignorant masses. (oops, did that also show my bias?.......or just a very educated opinion) Not one single state or province has fewer inspectors after licensing and quite the contrary, most states experienced what Tennessee did. My unproven guess is that licensing will eliminate some inspectors in the remote low population rural areas where some HIs can't justify the expenses and hassles of licensing.

Personally, licensing for physicians makes some sense, but they also have an extremely onerous process to get there, which makes it a better filter to exclude the incompetent or worse.........except that it doesn't..............and the marketplace and courts filter out the worst just like it does for the lowly trades........

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

The real money to be made is not inspecting but running a home inspection school. To bad some of the schools have to promote their wares by falsely advertising how great the inspection business is.

Ah, yes, I forgot about the "schools." Such as the aesthetology schools who lobby for licensure to cut - or even just braid - hair.

I imagine in the beginning home inspection licensure will probably be dominated by these types looking to churn out diplomates more-so than large companies will be trying to ratchet up requirements (e.g. 2000 hours of inspecting with a licensed apprenticeship program).

Originally Posted by John Kogel

May be true for some places, but we got licensing 3 years ago and now have more inspectors than the market will bear.

The bar was set low so as not to exclude anyone that can write the NACHI exam with an open book. Must not discriminate and must not turn a potential license fee away. It is easy to get the license, so why not give it a shot?

Does anybody know how many inspectors were in your area before licensing?

Back to original post. Giving that guy to much credit. It is actually a 1.6 page report.

Originally Posted by Dan Harris

Does anybody know how many inspectors were in your area before licensing?

Yes. I do. The numbers have swollen about 30% and the housing market is stagnant.

I wonder about the cause/effect relationship. It seems around here, that the schools are cranking out HIs like they used to with massage therapists and we don't have any licensing.

Originally Posted by John Kogel

Yes. I do. The numbers have swollen about 30% and the housing market is stagnant.

Perhaps it's simply a matter of coincidence? In 2010 the construction market in Canada didn't grow according to forecasts, so maybe a number of those workers thought the inspection business would be easier and more steady work?

Originally Posted by Rod Corwin

Back to original post. Giving that guy to much credit. It is actually a 1.6 page report.

I particularly like the "End Of Report" title..... since if you didn't tell them no one could believe it was so short and actually all there was to it.

I'm often a defender of shorter reports because I think too often 35 of the 50 pages in a report are filled with boiler plate BS.... this is one I'd have to agree is a bit on the light side

A funny I got from Mike Crow at a conference last year about report length: It should be like a woman's skirt - long enough to cover the subject matter but short enough to keep your attention.

Originally Posted by Stuart Brooks

I always wondered why a P.E. would do home inspections. They must have sucked at engineering. One would also have to consider what engineering field?

In Texas having licensing has not stopped bottom-of-the-barrel PEs from holding forth in such a fashion. They are not required to be licensed as home inspectors. In my experience, PEs who perform home inspections can be likened to MDs who work at a job where they are scripted to ask "paper or plastic?". It's the only job they qualified for.

I also deal with many PEs in expert consultations. Some of the manure they spread, dba expert knowledge, is frankly amazing. 9 out of 10 of them have never owned a copy of the building code. The remainder can't read it.

I believe that we are beginning to veer off the beaten path when discssing licensure. It is my belief that licensing requirements was a method employed to try and create a standard for a service offered to public that creates some sort of accountability for the inspector as well as set an expectation to the consumer. There are many inspectors with different backgrounds (electricians, general contractors, plumbers, mechanical technicians, engineers, architects, carpenters, even those with less constructino related backgrounds, etc). And with all of the differences it has been my experience that we lean to our strengths when in discussions or reporting. An electrician for example can extensively discuss electrical issues, but may have an understanding of framing, load, and wind resistance. So reports more than likely reflected this. So as to standardize what people were receiving as far as information for their purchased varied. I also believe that standards are a good atrting point to professionalism, however it doesn't have to be the end, and that typically is what separates average professionals from great to superb ones. Also without knowing the background of someone's reporting methods, I am not so sure that we should be so harsh on what is available to us from someone else's report. I take moments like those mentioned above to self reflect and make sure that I/we continue to improve and monitor ourselves, as not to become just what we are talking about. In summary, the presence of the two page report is an opportunity to see what we are providing, as well as an opportunity to possibly mentor young professionals coming after us. While we may not have an opportunity to mentor the person who left report on table, we do have the oportunity to improve our professional appearance during these discussions or at events where we are around our colleagues. I just read another post earlier this morning about an inspection performed in BC. I also read all of the public comments. our services have little to know value to most of the respondents. It was a learning opportunity for me as it may be for some of us on this forum to look at what we are providing, as well as ensuring that we are educating the general public about the value of our service. If not, our profession will be assumed by someone who can assure the public regarding their home ownership fears, taking away a lot of our abilities to be independent.

Just my 4 cents

Originally Posted by Joe Richmond

I believe that we are beginning to veer off the beaten path when discssing licensure. It is my belief that licensing requirements was a method employed to try and create a standard for a service offered to public that creates some sort of accountability for the inspector as well as set an expectation to the consumer.

Being a part of the effort to create licensing here, I can say that those of us writing the license law are genuinely trying to write a quality law that provides balance for protecting the interests of the public and home inspectors.
BUT, I can tell you that the real estate agents who are using their considerable clout to push this, are mainly interested in bringing home inspectors to the same heel that they have successfully done with appraisers and lenders. We have been told that a few home inspectors are deal killers and they think licensing will give them a tool to punish and/or remove these "bad" inspectors.
Recourse for a wronged person against an incompetent or bad inspector remains in the courts. A fine or license suspension, doesn't help a wronged person get compensated for their damages, only the courts do that.

Look at BC licencing home inspectors. Public hue and cry brought in licencing of inspectors.

Now as in another post about a supposed negligent home inspection in BC the consumer is still not happy with the licencing. Licencing does not stop disgruntled clients from suing, nor does it stop nuisance suits. It has not protected the consumer.

Personally I don't know what the consumer expects, but it appears they want compensation for all manner of harm they think they have been party to and the inspectors should not have any rights to limit their liability. Where is the equality?

Originally Posted by David Wood

Ever work for an Engineering company? it's not for everybody, or even every Engineer - at least not this one

Yes - many years. Except for the occasional micro-manager, totally useless PhDs, and government program managers, it was a very interesting and rewarding career. I had to learn to be a team player and leader even though my "team mates" were not always the easiest to work with (or work period). One thing I learned was diplomacy and remaining in self-control when I really want to choke somebody. It's an art telling a suit how their ideas are bad or aren't possible in our realm of physics and still make them feel like they are the greatest.

Originally Posted by John Kogel

May be true for some places, but we got licensing 3 years ago and now have more inspectors than the market will bear.

The bar was set low so as not to exclude anyone that can write the NACHI exam with an open book. Must not discriminate and must not turn a potential license fee away. It is easy to get the license, so why not give it a shot?

Same here John, 3 years ago everything started turning to $h!t. Lots of newbies lowballin fees. The funny thing is, usually the first words out of a future home buyer's mouth is: "How much do you charge". I think lenders should require future home buyers to take a H.I. class so they know that the cost of an inspection is not the most important question to ask.

Originally Posted by Jim Hintz

I think lenders should require future home buyers to take a H.I. class so they know that the cost of an inspection is not the most important question to ask.

Perhaps they should require an IQ test as well . . .

So I got my first one for this year. I get some of these throughout the year of course.
Client called last night fairly mad. They hired HI to do 2 units for $275 based on recommendation of guess who.
5 page report. 1st page- contract, 2nd page - boilerplate disclaimer crap, 3rd page - report, 4th page - 1 picture of the back of the house, 5th page - blank, listing some error code
The following is the email from the HI to the buyer after the buyer said they were disappointed and going to hire another inspector:
"I received a mail from your buyer. Please let him know that if the check has already been deposited then to let me know so I can mail him the company check for full refund.
I do admit error was made in my email. I had PDF issues since saturday.
Also let him know not to spend any money on another inspection. For the age of the property this is the best he could get.
I crawled every inch of the crawl space, checked every cinder blocks, sills plates, joists and subfloor to make sure there are no evidence of any Termites, Powser Post Beetles, Moisture, Mildew, Mold, Asbestos and any Hazardous Materials used for insulation purposes. I will challange any inspector who would do that in the basement or the crawl space. I checked all the plumbing lines, gas lines water lines and sewer lines. Checked entire exterior structure, roofing structures and 5 pages of my report tell the entire story of the house.
I will conclude this contract and I have withdrew my personal E&O and Liability insurance from this property.
This concludes all my communication on this property.
Thank You for trusting me and giving me this opportunity."

Apparently he doesn't understand what an HI report is supposed to provide the client. Funny thing also is he has a fairly early license number so he's been around for a while.
On a side note, whenever I get these its almost always some far out suburban guy coming into my town.

"Marcus: Apparently he doesn't understand what an HI report is supposed to provide the client. Funny thing also is he has a fairly early license number so he's been around for a while.
On a side note, whenever I get these its almost always some far out suburban guy coming into my town."

I agree about the inspector's not understanding what a report is supposed to provide. I wonder if he is a former tradesman or small contractor who never had to communicate with anyone about anything. Just show up for work, go home, collect paycheck. I have heard a lot of complaints from people about contractors that came down to the person could not or would not communicate with the customer.

Working on the above mentioned building report today. This will be a mile long report. Total nightmare inspection. Just a couple notes for fun
- Furnace is venting through dryer vent at grade in neighbors gangway
- Major bow in exterior wall
- 60A copper disconnect run tapped off of aluminum main to feed 3 AC condensers
- essentially every sink not vented and S-trap
- roof and siding shot
- fire separation, what's that?
And the creme de la creme - bottom of standard 5 gallon bucket cut off, rest of bucket glued to floor on top of floor drain, holes cut into side of bucket for basement bathroom sink and tub to drain into; all under/inside of kitchen cabinet