Thread: Should "How to" advice be included in the report?

There are a few thousand people that read IN.
Most never make a post.
Many are fellow inspectors.
I also guess there are about 100 regular posters.
Of this 100 regular posters about 35 or so are frequent posters.
Discussion by the 35 or so frequent posters will influence many.
The thousands of readers that do not post look to the frequent posters for answers to questions they don’t ask.
They also look to us (the 35) to provide guidance and advice.
Trusting that what we say will help them in some way.
This is why discussion is important.
This is also what makes IN such a useful tool, even for the 35.

In a recent thread the discussion drifted to is it appropriate to provide “How to” advice in the report.
This is the thread: Re: Dark spots on the foundation.
I think the subject deserves discussion by itself so I started this thread.

So, on to the topic
Should how to make simple repairs be included in the report?

Generally, I do not think that “How to” advice should be included in the report.

Your thoughts?



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No Repair Method should be in an Inspection Report
*report what you see @ that time on that day.....!

I'm in the "do not design the repair" camp. I also (I can afford to do it and I just do not have the time) tend to hire professionals to repair things around my home.

I feel we should direct our clients to contact a professional to take care of a repair. If it is advice like keeping the flower beds off the cladding or not leaving a hose connected to the spigot in the winter then I don't see a problem with this type of advice. I just do not like the idea of a home inspector giving specific repair instructions. Why? Well, many times what we are seeing might not be the only problem and if we tell them to repair the "A" switch when it is the "B" switch that is the real problem do you think that they will call you a Hero or an Idiot?

One reason I like to have clients at the inspection is that I can explain some "how to" verbally but not in the report. I've inspected so many foreclosures and short sales that it almost an automatic and as the market shifts back to normal sales, I have to remember to hold back. I do sometimes include suggestions in the report because I've found the general reference to repair by a licensed contractor is like sending folks into a black hole when maybe one in a hundred licensed contractors are capable, knowledgible, or care enough to make the repair competently.

Some States prohibit the HI from making certain comments unless they are Licensed or have the status as a professional in that area.

For some HIs offering repair advice is about ego, as in being to big and they think they know it all. When they are actually clueless.

For some it is about liability reduction. Say as little as possible and cover yourself.

Offering a design for a repair would be good providing that there was enough detail so there is no question. Which still would require room for the CYA statement about referring to a qualified professional to perform the repair. Unless the writer was 100% confident is their position.

Then there is the problem of HIs that have of being proficient in observing what is actual wrong in the first place.

Providing guidance as what to expect in a repair is very beneficial to the client. Which is the reason they have decided to have a HI in the first place. It can be a slippery slope for some based on knowledge and experience in actually performing the repair.

Don't design the repair but I do give some advice as to what is an inappropriate repair and who to look to for a good repair.
For instance when I see air leakage in the duct work in the attic I may say something like "Seal the joints at the plenum to duct connections with mastic. (Duct tape is not an appropriate repair)"

Or when I see a structural issue that is an easy fix IF they find the right carpenter. I tell the client verbally to find a REAL carpenter that has been around long enough to have gray in his beard not someone that just nails together tract homes like tinker toys.

Some times it is simple like "have the xyz repaired by someone other than the person created the problem."

I also throw in some diagrams that illustrate correct installations of common problems.

I don't design the repair but I have done so many reinspections that I am acutely cognizant of my clients plight if they have too little guidance when trying to find competent repair people.

Good morning Rick,

Excellent topic. I am one of those that specifies repairs when the report/evaluation calls for it. In general I agree that a standard Home Inspection may not, or possibly even should not include specifications. There are other types of inspections... which I prefer to classify as "evaluations" or "studies" that do include, and are intended to provide remediation specifications.

About the closest I get to designing repairs is when I tell them that unsupported joists need metal hangers (or a ledger board). I usually add the part about being the right size and using the right fasteners too.

When I find reverse polarity I usually tell them that its almost always a very simple fix, and they could do it themselves if they are comfortable working around electrical stuff. However, I always follow up with "or get a licensed professional to do it".

A lot of advice depends on our clients. I usually carry on a dialog with my clients as they follow me around. I get a pretty good idea if they are DIY types, or are not sure what a phillips screw driver is.

Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall

D

Some times it is simple like "have the xyz repaired by someone other than the person created the problem."

I used a line like that a lot and throw in the word "competent" especially in new home construction, flips, and remodeling.

I inspected a house yesterday built in 1992. Most of the the things I was reporting was due to an incompetent builder and trades.

Like others, I often Verbally explain what kinds of repairs would be better. I occasionally will explain that a handyman could repair this defect but the report will state use a licensed contractor.

The report becomes a legal document. What was said onsite by whom has no bearing in a court of law. I have read so many stories by posters here about the client who calls back with all kinds of issues. If called into court, I want to be able to point to the report and state that the report said use a licensed contractor.

I have a few boilerplate states that say things like: Sand, Prime, and paint to match surrounding finishes. I feel that is generic enough that I am safe legally but specific enough that a client knows at least where to start.

I often explain Verbally to the client onsite how a system is assembled and/or what parts would commonly be needed to effect a repair. My reports do not. I want my clients to have a working understanding of the severity of the issue, but I do not want to go into too great a detail on the specifics of repair. If they don't know how, I don't want to be the one that sent them down a path to self destruction.

Since I posted, does that put me in the Top 100 or am I just a gate crasher looking for fame?

Originally Posted by Bruce Ramsey

Like others, I often Verbally explain what kinds of repairs would be better. I occasionally will explain that a handyman could repair this defect but the report will state use a licensed contractor.

The report becomes a legal document. What was said onsite by whom has no bearing in a court of law. I have read so many stories by posters here about the client who calls back with all kinds of issues. If called into court, I want to be able to point to the report and state that the report said use a licensed contractor.

I have a few boilerplate states that say things like: Sand, Prime, and paint to match surrounding finishes. I feel that is generic enough that I am safe legally but specific enough that a client knows at least where to start.

I often explain Verbally to the client onsite how a system is assembled and/or what parts would commonly be needed to effect a repair. My reports do not. I want my clients to have a working understanding of the severity of the issue, but I do not want to go into too great a detail on the specifics of repair. If they don't know how, I don't want to be the one that sent them down a path to self destruction.

Question Bruce if / when you are called to the Witness Stand and asked if you gave your Client different verbal recommendations than the written report what do you say?

For me it depends on the deficiency and repair needed. If I see faded paint on the siding I tell them it needs to be painted. I don't tell them they need to have a professional painting contractor paint the house. If I see settled grading at the foundation that can easily be corrected with fill I don't tell them to get a professional landscaping company to do the repairs.

For the more serious issues like insufficient attic venting I'll tell them additional venting should be added. When they ask if it's something they can do themselves I'll say, "I don't know, can you? If you don't know how to do it and don't have a friend or family member who can show you then you'll need to hire a professional".

When I see even more serious structural, hvac, electrical or plumbing problem I'll tell them to get licensed contractor to do the work.

Like others have pointed out they will offer advice as to how to do simple repairs. Thats is the manner in which I operate. Or alternately if a retain wall is required, then again there is nothing inherently wrong with informing the client as to what type of retaining wall may be utilized.

I don't put in the report how to go about fixing something, but then again I interview my clients when they call me to book an inspection. Understanding your clients wants and needs and how handy they provide me with the necessary info as to how to deal with them and the issues I may find.

My clients want options. In my view if you tell them that something needs repair and they ask how to go about it I tell them there are different approaches or methods to do something. Have been doing so for over 20 years and client feedback through questionnaires prove that.

Referring to the ASHI SOP -

2.3 These Standards of Practice are not intended to limit inspectors from:

1. including other inspection services or systems and components in addition to those required In Section 2.2.B.
2. designing or specifying repairs, provided the inspector is appropriately qualified and willing to do so.

Further I have not read any case law specifically wherein an inspector was sued for providing repair advice. Can anyone sight an example from case law?

I see lots of advice given to home owners and other inspectors on this site quite often.

I do on the small things.
Anti siphons. I include a photo of what one looks like and tell them they can buy it for $7 or 8 at the hardware store.
.
Dishwasher loop. As long as there's enough hose, I explain why they need it, how to correct it, and provide a photo of what a high loop looks like.

Minor caulking etc., I include a web link on how to do it, and let them decide if it's something they can do.


If the buyer asks how to install an outlet cover or something like that all bets are off, then it's call a professional

I always stick to the four w's in my reports when itemising a defect.

• What is it
• where is it
• why is it
• what are you going to do about.

The correct advise for the latter should always be "further inspection by a competent person e.g. a licensed building contractor, licensed plumbing contractor etc., dependant on the nature of the defect.

With most defects there is usually more than one way to carry out rectification. Ultimately this will be determined by the person carrying out the rectification.

www.embuilding.com.au

Originally Posted by Edward Mullarkey

I always stick to the four w's in my reports when itemising a defect.

• What is it
• where is it
• why is it
• what are you going to do about.

The correct advise for the latter should always be "further inspection by a competent person e.g. a licensed building contractor, licensed plumbing contractor etc., dependant on the nature of the defect.

With most defects there is usually more than one way to carry out rectification. Ultimately this will be determined by the person carrying out the rectification.

www.embuilding.com.au

Mr. Mullarkey !

Gosh what a Handel.

Well Welcome,

If an Item or System needs Replacement " further inspection " is not needed.

One fear is a dishonest contractor. Early in my career a buyer bought a new furnace that I don't think they needed. The blower on a five year old Lennox furnace stayed on. It was likely the limit switch. I recommended repair by a licensed contractor. When I was called to re-inspect something else I saw a brand new furnace.

Now if I recommend a professional for what should be a minor repair, I use a work like 'likely', but I let the clients know it should not be a major expense or replacement. eg "This is not likely a major expense or repair." If nothing else, the client may question a bid for unnecessary repairs or replacement. No one has called me yet and said "You were wrong....". And I think warning the client that this 'should be' or 'likely is' minor is worth the risk of being wrong.

I will also note a minor "repair can be made by a competent handyman". For example the exterior elbow is missing on an ac condensate line. The line is sloped down-no water on the exterior wall. No short term risk of damage. Do my clients need to pay a plumber or hvac contractor to come glue a 3/4 inch elbow on a pipe that is only a drain and has no pressure in it? I will do this if a plumber or hvac is not needed for something else. Handymen in our state are licensed by the Registrar of Contractors, so I may be safer in doing this than other states.

I feel we may be doing a disservice to our clients if we find something that requires a contractor and don't inform our clients that it is "likely" a minor repair/expense.

I do not think it is a good idea to put repair info in the report, as one other poster noted, there may be more than one way to do it. And depending on the cost, the alternative cost of doing it a different way, and the cost of doing it yourself, you may be putting yourself in a situation where others can make you look like a novice. And you may never hear about it. Also, if you are wrong or other stuff comes up associated with the same repair, you will get the blame.

I don't comment on "how" to do repairs, but I do have links in my reports that take clients to appropriate websites. Here is an example:

	The sash spring mechanism(s) in one or more windows are broken or loose. A qualified contractor or service technician should evaluate and make repairs as necessary so the window(s) operate as intended (open easily, stay open without support, close easily, etc.). Visit the following link for easy do it yourself instructions: Side-Load Single Hung Balance Spring Replacement - YouTube

This topic has been knocked around in other threads quite a bit. I'm surprised Jerry hasn't jumped in yet. Based on past conversations, it seems that there are two basic camps on this topic. One camp advocates that we are presenting ourselves as experts and are expected to offer guidance on how to make repairs. The other camp sees us more as experienced, knowledgeable generalists with expertise in a wide range of areas (possibly expert in some).

I'm in the latter camp. Precious few HIs are truly experts in every aspect of home construction. So, what to do?

The very nature of our inspections often offer the repair solution, such as, "There is a gas leak at the elbow in the gas line above the furnace." Does it really have to be stated to repair this? But some other defects may be more of a gray area; "FPE service panel is a known a safety hazard." That is arguably sufficient, but most of us probably offer the logical conclusion of "and should be replaced", or "have the panel evaluated by a licensed electrician and recommended repairs or replacement done."

I'm comfortable saying that the panel should be replaced. I don't think I have to be a licensed electrician to offer that recommendation. But I think it's acceptable to recommend further evaluation. Neither approach is wrong in my opinion. However, recommending replacement is more forceful than recommending further evaluation. That subtle difference can drive home to a client that this is really a mountain vs. a molehill.

Defects are not equal and some need to be emphasized as to their importance. But some defects need further time consuming evaluation than we normally do in our inspections. Structural concerns often fit this description. So, I will recommend further evaluation for some defects and offer the course of repair for others.

Like some of you, I often offer repair suggestions verbally to clients that never make it to the report. I am comfortable with my suggestions and if I ever had to admit that I'd said them in court, I would. I don't have nearly the amount of CYA in my reports that I often see in others, yet, so far, I've never had significant trouble with how I do them.

Some of you work in states that have SoPs that require stating remedy. For you, this is an academic conversation. This is definitely a good topic and goes to the heart of the second of the two legs of our business. The first leg is the actual inspection and the second is communicating what we find to our clients.

Kind of interesting that only 100 or so are regulars and only around 35 are frequent posters. And yet the diversity of experience and opinions is enormous.

Originally Posted by Lon Henderson

Kind of interesting that only 100 or so are regulars and only around 35 are frequent posters. .

My guess

Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

Mr. Mullarkey !

If an Item or System needs Replacement " further inspection " is not needed.

I would have thought a further inspection by a suitably qualified person would be required at the very least to determine the extent of the defect and cost of the rectification that may be required.

Building inspection, reports in Jindabyne,Cooma,Berridale,Adaminaby

Originally Posted by Edward Mullarkey

I would have thought a further inspection by a suitably qualified person would be required at the very least to determine the extent of the defect and cost of the rectification that may be required.

Building inspection, reports in Jindabyne,Cooma,Berridale,Adaminaby

Edward,
The key is in the word "competent". If the HI has the competence and the willingness to make the determination, along with taking the responsibility for that determination, that the item can not be repaired. Then further inspection is not needed unless a 2nd opinion is desired by the client. Kinda like going to the Doctor.

This topic is like that of giving repair costs and those that quote code. Some do, some don't. No right or wrong.

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

Edward,
The key is in the word "competent". If the HI has the competence and the willingness to make the determination, along with taking the responsibility for that determination, that the item can not be repaired. Then further inspection is not needed unless a 2nd opinion is desired by the client. Kinda like going to the Doctor.

Garry,
OK that makes sense, thanks for clarifying.

Pre-Purchase Building Inspection - Eddie Mullarkey Building Solutions

Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

Question Bruce if / when you are called to the Witness Stand and asked if you gave your Client different verbal recommendations than the written report what do you say?

Then you say (from the Godfather) "I don't recollect having that discussion....)

Originally Posted by Rich Goeken

Then you say (from the Godfather) "I don't recollect having that discussion....)

Still working as seen in testimony given in recent Congressional inquiries.

Originally Posted by Rich Goeken

Then you say (from the Godfather) "I don't recollect having that discussion....)

Rich, I think you have your sources mixed up. I believe you are quoting Hillary re; Benghazi.

Originally Posted by Rich Goeken

Then you say (from the Godfather) "I don't recollect having that discussion....)

That Would Be Richard Nixon

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Edward Mullarkey

I would have thought a further inspection by a suitably qualified person would be required at the very least to determine the extent of the defect and cost of the rectification that may be required.

Building inspection, reports in Jindabyne,Cooma,Berridale,Adaminaby

Mr Mullarkey,

If the furnace heat exchanger is leaking CO, water heater is leaking ect. no need to re-inspect Replace.

Originally Posted by Edward Malarkey

I would have thought a further inspection by a suitably qualified person would be required at the very least to determine the extent of the defect and cost of the rectification that may be required.

Building inspection, reports in Jindabyne,Cooma,Berridale,Adaminaby

So, your family name is where the saying "That is a bunch of Malarkey" came from????

I think it really depends upon the individual H.I's ability, experience and competency - and, of course what their own State requires or does not. Having been in and around the construction industry since I was knee-high, worked on multiple million dollar homes in a multitude of trades and fixed, painted, nailed, glued, repaired or installed pretty much everything in a home multiple times over the years, I'm pretty confident at providing appropriate verbal repair or remediation but it is rarely included in the report. Far easier to report what you see with appropriate recommendations.

I also know my limitations and will invariably defer to a specific tradesperson for appropriate remedy. Clients invariably ask how to fix stuff and what will it cost, it's all part of the sale and negotiation process and they look to the HI for answers. Clients hire Inspectors, not just for a report but also for insight as to possible future costs of repairs and replacements. Costs can not be evaluated if the Inspector has little knowledge of what may be entailed in making reparations. Many times the buyer's realtor will ask for a possible remedy and an idea of cost because it becomes an issue for re-negotiation and time is of the essence.

Without belittling anyone, I have encountered Inspectors who didn't know how (or what was meant) to pig-tail a recepticle or had never replaced an angle stop etc. Without such knowledge I find it unfathomable for a HI to offer remedial advise but that's just me.

I pretty much stay away from designing fixes except for simple or obvious things. I think of it as giving people a destination and letting them (and their qualified/competent contractor) pave the road there.

In simple terms - make the roof stop leaking, get the water out of the crawl space, remove/replace the damaged siding and paint the necessary materials, repair the loose bricks and mortar on the chimney, make the furnace work, etc, etc.

Of course my actual reporting is dressed up with locations and reasons why a given item is a problem (required by my state SOPs) but that's the basic way I look at it.

Even if you're right and your "fix" is the best way to do it all it takes is some knucklehead contractor to disagree and your phone rings.

I was glad so see this thread posted. I've been looking real close at my report writing style and methods. A few moths back I was asked by a Realtor to limit my recommendations and solutions for problems and concerns that I find.

As others have said I am willing to give people additional repair advise verbally at time of inspection. As I am revising my report writing methods I will be limiting my comments and recommendations for repairs. I am experienced in remodeling and construction (Jack of all trades kind of guy). However I have come to realize that in most cases there are just to many ways for how repairs could be made.

It will speed up my report writing by not listing so many detailed solution's to problems. Also I really don't want to be designing repairs in areas were I probably shouldn't be. There are many smaller problems that we can offer repair solutions for, I think it's good reporting to have some amount of repair advise in the report or links to sites for additional advise.

Spent about three hours this week being deposed regarding my report. I had many occasions where I used the "i don't remember", because it had been 2 1/2 years since the inspection, and I could not remember things that were not in the report itself.

Having an attorney question you about your report is a great way to sharpen your report writing skills.

When I am hired as an inspector, I steer away from describing repairs, but I may give referrals to good contractors. I do this because there is almost always more than one good way to fix something, and I recognize that a good contractor may see a way that is better than mine.

When I am hired as a consultant or a contractor, of course I describe/specify the repairs.

- - - Updated - - -

When I am hired as an inspector, I steer away from describing repairs, but I may give referrals to good contractors. I do this because there is almost always more than one good way to fix something, and I recognize that a good contractor may see a way that is better than mine.

When I am hired as a consultant or a contractor, of course I describe/specify the repairs.

IMO, it's often useful to give the client a general idea of what may be involved in a repair, for example it helps them sort out major potential expenses from minor repairs and maintenance issues.

An example would be a a badly deteriorated lintel which is lifting masonry above it.

If I feel that it would be helpful to a given client, in additional to a picture and description of the problem, my report includeds a diagram which illustrates a generic lintel / flashing appropriate for the style of construction and a picture which shows a lintel open for replacement. The comment also notes that the appropriate method of repair for the defect at this property will have to be determined by the mason who is performing the repair and is responsible for guaranteeing the results.

My objective is to educate the client to the extent that they have an understanding of the scope of the repair, and an appreciation of the fact that this is going to be a major expense.

This reporting style is not appropriate for every client - some clients don't need or want this level of information, and some clients can't or don't wish to pay for the time required to prepare such a report, and there will always be clients, and market segments, for which minimalist reporting standards are appropriate.

It's also not appropriate for every inspector: you need to be in a market where home sale prices attract buyers who can afford this type of inspection and report, and you have to be able to generate a sufficient volume of inspections that justify charging the prices that make this sort of reporting practical.

But when possible, I would rather "over inform " my clients, because talking to other inspectors who have been sued (I have not - so far) it appears to me that clients are usually unhappy not that a report overstated the seriousness or cost of a defect, but because some defect was not reported, or its cost or seriousness was not made clear.

So I'd rather take my chances by giving enough information to a client to help them understand the scope and cost of or repair and the necessity of obtaining a quote for the work if needed to make a purchasing decision - even if the client might somehow mistake this information for a statement of exactly how the repair ought be made - that give them a minimalist description which might lead them to underestimate the seriousness of a defect or the cost of correcting it.

I find myself on occasion lately telling folks about how involved repair May be (to an extent). I hear more often than not lately that they are not worried about stuff like that and it is a quick and easy fix.

For instance a chimney at the top of a 12 12 roof that needs new siding and trim. Yup, looks like a quick, easy and little and inexpensive job, right? These are folks that don't have a clue or any money for the most part that say things like that. When I give them a ball park on the time involved with 2 people tearing apart, cutting, installing, caulking and painting they go into shock.

The folks up above that said the Realtor says you need to cut back on your explanation? Sometimes you just have to actually are expected to talk and think like you do know things.You are not just a reporting robot. I do try to stay out of things most of the time but when asked or the folks have no clue about what may be involved I personally and professionally you do have to use what you do really know to offer that professional opinion.


Yes and a great portion of the time you really do need to just give a thorough professional opinion on your report. I am not talking about telling them how to repair things. I am talking about knowing the chimney has been blasted with lighting and that is why there are cracks throughout and chunks of brick lying around the roof.

Not just

"The chimney is damaged and needs repair"