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  1. #1
    John Stephenson's Avatar
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    Default Flashing at eave

    Last edited by John Stephenson; 12-21-2007 at 01:21 PM.
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  2. #2
    Richard Rushing's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flashing at eave

    My friend, there is no drip edge flashing there. If drip edge flashing were there, it should be installed over the felt at the drip edge and under the felt at the rake edge.

    One should/could not be lifting the shingles like that if there was mastic applied.

    It's hard to tell from your picture, but it does not appear that there is a starter course... just a first course over felt???


    What say ye? Starter course... yea/nay?

    Rich


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Flashing at eave

    "Is this okay/proper/allowed to put flashing under the asphalt shingles like this? It looks to me like the underlayment is under this flashing. "


    I don't see what that flashing is doing.
    There is not a starter coarse of shingles.
    Drip edge is not a requirement, but it is preferred.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Flashing at eave

    That flashing is probably hiding rotted out roof sheathing in that area.

    It likely rotted out because there was no drip edge.

    Rick, drip edge is a requirement in some areas. Yes, I believe most manufacturers 'recommend' it, but if it's not installed, their warranty will be void, so it is 'required' by them.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Flashing at eave

    Yes, that would explain what the flashing is doing.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  6. #6
    Richard Rushing's Avatar
    Richard Rushing Guest

    Default Re: Flashing at eave

    Quote Originally Posted by John Stephenson View Post
    Thanks...your correct no starter course.

    Would you recommend the flashing be removed and roof decking inspected for rot damage as well as the first course shingles be appropriately installed?
    Errr... Nope. I don't recommend removal of something that I should have already seen at/ under the eave and/or in the attic.

    I agree that the metal is there because of a patch/rework due to previous water intrusion. Obviously, this is not new construction, so I would identify what I see, report it accordingly (the section of eave having been previously damaged and patch repaired).

    However, you will NOT be doing your job if you do not tell your client WHY there was a previous repair and to expect future damage and subsequent repairs unless the problem of the lack of a starter course and the lack of drip-edge is remedied. Make sure that they know the symptom was repaired but the cause of the problem remains.

    By the way, the way this has been lifted up at that corner, it is very susceptable to wind lift and blowing rain to cause more damage in the very near future.

    Rich


  7. #7
    James Duffin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flashing at eave

    My guess is that at one time there was some wood rot in that corner and the metal you see was the fix. That is the reason you could raise up the shingles without damage. There was no wood to nail to.

    What did you find when you checked other sections of the roof at the gutters? If this flashing was installed along the whole bottom edge of the roof then that is better than a starter course.


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Flashing at eave

    James
    If this flashing was installed along the whole bottom edge of the roof then that is better than a starter course
    The main reason to install the starter coarse is the glue strip holds down the 1st row of shingles. Flashing does not, yes you could apply mastic to the flashing to hold down the 1st row, but then you will have metal showing between the tabs.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  9. #9
    Richard Rushing's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flashing at eave

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    What did you find when you checked other sections of the roof at the gutters? If this flashing was installed along the whole bottom edge of the roof then that is better than a starter course.
    Huuh...

    Please explain-- that one does not compute.
    Define; "bottom edge of the roof".

    Rich


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Flashing at eave

    I think that you'll find a distinction between starter strips and starter course.

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    Eric Barker, ACI
    Lake Barrington, IL

  11. #11
    Richard Rushing's Avatar
    Richard Rushing Guest

    Default Re: Flashing at eave

    Eric wrote: " I think that you'll find a distinction between starter strips and starter course."

    Nope... The starter strips ARE the starter course. The starter strips are the lower course or starter course that is installed first at the drip edge and are cut back 3" below from the bottom (which is overhanging the soffit).

    The 1st course is different from the starter course. I think that is what you meant... Right?

    Rich

    Last edited by Richard Rushing; 05-28-2007 at 09:05 PM. Reason: speelen

  12. #12
    James Duffin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flashing at eave

    I was referring to flashing run up the roof beyond the edge of the sheathing. This would be an additional layer of protection I would think. Normally found in colder climates.

    If you can't find the bottom edge of the roof, climb up your ladder and look directly above the top of the gutter. That is the bottom edge of the roof.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Flashing at eave

    Rich,

    I have always gone by the American Asphalt Roofing Manufacturers Association's manual which is the source of my above attachment. They seem to differentiate between the strips and the first course of shingles. It seems that when you try to get down to the nitty gritty in terminology things get confusing.

    Anyway, if I'm wrong on this, I've been wrong for quite a while and in many reports.

    Eric Barker, ACI
    Lake Barrington, IL

  14. #14
    Richard Rushing's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flashing at eave

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Barker View Post
    Rich,

    I have always gone by the American Asphalt Roofing Manufacturers Association's manual which is the source of my above attachment. They seem to differentiate between the strips and the first course of shingles. It seems that when you try to get down to the nitty gritty in terminology things get confusing.

    Anyway, if I'm wrong on this, I've been wrong for quite a while and in many reports.
    Now... that would be correct. The strips and the starter course are one in the same. The strips ARE the starter course of shingle that have been trimmed back 3".

    The difference of terminology lies when we are talking about strips/starter course vs 1st course.

    DThe 1st course is not the starter course or strips. It is the 1st course on top of the strips or starter course.

    Your original post, "I think that you'll find a distinction between starter strips and starter course", indicated that the starter course and the strips were different. They are the same. The strips are the starter course, then the 1st course is applied over them.

    Rich


  15. #15
    Richard Rushing's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flashing at eave

    By the way, Eric...

    Look at the attached American Plywood Association's Build a Better Home bulliten and go to p. 5, figure 4A-- in the middle of the page and on the right hand side. This illustrates helps.

    Rich

    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Richard Rushing; 05-29-2007 at 06:50 AM. Reason: changed 'B' to 'A' for figure identification.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Flashing at eave

    Rich,

    I see where you're coming from. Looks like I'll be making a slight revision to my wording. Thanks for setting me onto the path of righteousness.

    Eric Barker, ACI
    Lake Barrington, IL

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Flashing at eave

    This (I think) will help understand the difference between a "starter course" and a "starter strip".

    The "starter course" is the first layer laid down so the first course (second layer on top of it) will lay flat with the other courses above and provide two layers for the first course.

    A "starter strip" is a *type* of material used for the "starter course". What is shown in the drawing Rich attached is a 3-tab shingle being used for the "starter course", a "starter strip" is one continuous strip, no notches or cut outs. You can use a shingle or a starter strip for the "starer course".

    Also not something which is all too often missed by roofers and inspectors alike: Which way, i.e., from which end, do you lay the ridge shingles?

    Most roofers start where 'convenient'.

    The instructions show 'from the end opposite the prevailing wind'.

    You not only run into 'the direction of the prevailing wind' with metal roofs (except standing seam with the lock strip, which does not matter as all seams are covered from both directions - be aware that there are new 'standing seam' 'lock seam' types which must be laid with deference to the prevailing wind), but with shingles too.

    Don't know the direction of the prevailing wind? Call your local TV weatherman or your local airport - they will know ... the largest/longest/most used runway faces the direction of the prevailing wind -- that's why it faces that direction.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  18. #18
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    Lightbulb Re: Flashing at eave

    Starter strip has two functions. It seals the tabs down on the first course and it protects where the "key slots" are on the first course. Without it there would only be felt paper between the slots. It also has to be 6" staggered from the first course.

    Around here Drip edge is an option and not enforced. New homes don't have it. Also no mastic is used along the eaves and rakes.

    It is also not uncommon to have a very small water damage area and it's covered with a piece of sheet metal. Why that area did not have a nail is unknown. It should of been nailed in the fly/barge rafter.

    Mike Schulz License 393
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  19. #19
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    Default Re: Flashing at eave

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Schulz View Post
    Starter strip has two functions. It seals the tabs down on the first course and it protects where the "key slots" are on the first course. Without it there would only be felt paper between the slots. It also has to be 6" staggered from the first course.
    Starter course "shingles" need to be staggered so their slots do not align with the slots of the first course of shingles above (laid over top the starter course shingles).

    Starter strips do not as there are no slots in them and their ends are not half-slotted either. Of course, staggering the starter strips 6" means their ends do not align under the slots at the ends of the first course of shingles (laid over top the starter strips).

    When I used to do roofing, we always took the starter course of shingles and flipped them around, so the un-slotted edge was laid along the eave, basically creating a starter strip out of the starter shingles. Had the same effect with no slots to align under the first course of shingles.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  20. #20
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    Wink Re: Flashing at eave

    Jerry you are correct and I thought that was what I was implying. Staggered makes sure the ends don't end up in a slot.
    Roofers here never buy the accessory strips and always flip a shingle upside down like you said. Only thing though the tar strip is not along the bottom edge. But we never have a problem here with that.

    Last edited by Mike Schulz; 05-30-2007 at 02:59 PM. Reason: Added
    Mike Schulz License 393
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  21. #21
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    Default Re: Flashing at eave

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Schulz View Post
    Only thing though the tar strip is not along the bottom edge.
    All that takes is just a little dab of plastic roofing cement, about the size of a quarter - per some information I got from a couple of manufacturers many years ago. If you use too much, it can deteriorate the shingle, but a little dab will not hurt it - according to the people who made them.

    "A little dab will do ya." Was that Brylcreme ?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  22. #22
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    Default Re: Flashing at eave

    I see the improper installation of the starter strip on probably 90% of the roofs I inspect and I always call it out.
    I wish I could choke the guy who started the myth about flipping the shingle around.
    As you know most roofers can't (or won't) read the instructions and do it the way they were taught (by the other guys who did it wrong).
    Jerry's explanation of roofing cement will help, but if the nails are at the tar strip (where I usually find them) then the edge of the shingle is still not naild down.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Dallas, Texas

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Flashing at eave

    Re the difference between "starter strips" and "starter shingles" (discussion above), I ran across this today, see section 3.5.2:

    http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files/ICC-ES/1389.pdf


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