Thread: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

J.P and AD you guys are way off on this one. Sky is falling the sky is falling. I personally never done it that way. When the immigrants where hired in the early 90's they ran starter up the rakes because they could not cut a straight line if there life depended on it. Chalk line......Mespeak no englay. Now all homes are that way unless you find a Caucasian to install them.

Running a starter course is not going to void any warranty. As stated before it's no different then any other underlayment. and as long as the nails penetrate the sheathing it's Kosher.

Explain what would be different between the starter on the eave and starter on the rake as far as integrity? I know it is for covering keys on the eave but in what way is it going to affect the rake? Water running lateral..........Paleeeeesssssseeeeeeeeee. You guy's are blinded by your "I am right, Ideology" Or is that idiotology .....Hold back AD and Jerry no love loss here

If you read your instructions most of the time they *recommend* a certain way and don't directly say It *must* be this way. That alone will stand up in court...........Works for the AHJ on complaints around here.

here comes the heat

Mike

Originally Posted by Mike Schulz

J.P and AD you guys are way off on this one. Sky is falling the sky is falling. I personally never done it that way. When the immigrants where hired in the early 90's they ran starter up the rakes because they could not cut a straight line if there life depended on it. Chalk line......Mespeak no englay. Now all homes are that way unless you find a Caucasian to install them.

Running a starter course is not going to void any warranty. As stated before it's no different then any other underlayment. and as long as the nails penetrate the sheathing it's Kosher.

Explain what would be different between the starter on the eave and starter on the rake as far as integrity? I know it is for covering keys on the eave but in what way is it going to affect the rake? Water running lateral..........Paleeeeesssssseeeeeeeeee. You guy's are blinded by your "I am right, Ideology" Or is that idiotology .....Hold back AD and Jerry no love loss here

If you read your instructions most of the time they *recommend* a certain way and don't directly say It *must* be this way. That alone will stand up in court...........Works for the AHJ on complaints around here.

here comes the heat

Mike

Instead of you guys ranting on and on and on and on ... about that practice being okay, I have been wondering why one of you did not simply e-mail the manufacturer you like and get a specific approval from their engineering department which specifically states that running those starter strips up the rakes IS ACCEPTABLE UNDER THEIR INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS and that they will send you a revised installation instruction with that information contained in it, and all new installation instructions will include that information.

It really IS THAT SIMPLE.

Aaron and I has been asking for someone to produce installation instructions which supports your arguments, and ... as yet ... not a one of you has done that ... not even to the post above this post (not unless I missed something above in some posts I may have inadvertently skipped over.

It really IS THAT SIMPLE.

Produce manufacturers documentation (installation instructions) which supports your opinion, and I will accept that documentation.

In the mean time, though, it does you absolutely no good to continue to rant that it is okay IN YOUR OPINION.

Are starter courses failing in the field? Are manufactures voiding their warranties? Are disgruntled home owners calling their inspectors to task for not calling out starter strips?
Does the code address starter strips? Unfortunately there are a myriad of installations where field modification or local code may approve such installations.

I would like to see documentation please, only because it interests me from a legal pov.

Thanks,

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

..... I have been wondering why one of you did not simply e-mail the manufacturer you like and get a specific approval from their engineering department which specifically states that running those starter strips up the rakes IS ACCEPTABLE UNDER THEIR INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS ....

... produce installation instructions which supports your arguments, and ... as yet ... not a one of you has done that ... not even to the post above this post (not unless I missed something above in some posts I may have inadvertently skipped over.

Produce manufacturers documentation (installation instructions) which supports your opinion, and I will accept that documentation.

Well Jerry, did you read the part where it says that the manufactures 7 year warranty is void if you don't use their starter strip? If the manufacturer is stating that the installation must include a starter strip what do you think you will find in the manufactures installation instructions/warranty?

Jerry what have you or Aaron provided to support your arguement? NOTHING! Please back up your opinion with something tangible. Who are you to judge that which is acceptable?

Yes Jerry it really is that SIMPLE!

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Well Jerry, did you read the part where it says that the manufactures 7 year warranty is void if you don't use their starter strip?

Raymond,

Yep, I sure missed that part, can you point that part out to me?

I am STILL missing that part.

Jerry,

Elk Building Products, Inc. Manufacturer of roofing, composite decking, railing building material.

This is Owen and Corning peel and stick (compatible with all there shingle products). Introduction states it replaces the need to cutting off the tabs. So it was designed to do the same thing as a conventional shingle on the rake except this cuts down the time of trimming off the tabs. http://www.owenscorning.eu/docs/shin...ll_install.pdf

Now all homes are that way unless you find a Caucasian to install them.

Must be a regional thing. I know one roofing company that was doing this 30 years ago-- all of them are/ were white dudes that actually cared about their finished product. They got rid of their roofing company because they couldn't make any money at it any more, and now just have their remodeling business.

I've got e- mails in already........................................... ...........

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Well Jerry, did you read the part where it says that the manufactures 7 year warranty is void if you don't use their starter strip? If the manufacturer is stating that the installation must include a starter strip what do you think you will find in the manufactures installation instructions/warranty?

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Raymond,

Yep, I sure missed that part, can you point that part out to me?

I am STILL missing that part.

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Jerry,

Elk Building Products, Inc. Manufacturer of roofing, composite decking, railing building material.

Raymond,

I think you need to actually read what you are posting ... you ARE NOT posting something which states what did said, and you are STILL missing that.

Post here the part you are referring to, then quote yourself under that text, then tell me if you see the difference and understand what I am trying to point out to you.

Originally Posted by Mike Schulz

This is Owen and Corning peel and stick (compatible with all there shingle products). Introduction states it replaces the need to cutting off the tabs. So it was designed to do the same thing as a conventional shingle on the rake except this cuts down the time of trimming off the tabs. http://www.owenscorning.eu/docs/shin...ll_install.pdf

(bold, underlined, red text is mine)
"Before installing this product, check roofing manufacturer’s application instructions and local building codes for their roofing requirements."

"Precautionary Note: The manufacturer will not be responsible for problems resulting from any deviation from the recommended application instructions and the following precautions:"

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Instead of you guys ranting on and on and on and on ... about that practice being okay, I have been wondering why one of you did not simply e-mail the manufacturer you like and get a specific approval from their engineering department which specifically states that running those starter strips up the rakes IS ACCEPTABLE UNDER THEIR INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS and that they will send you a revised installation instruction with that information contained in it, and all new installation instructions will include that information.

It really IS THAT SIMPLE.

Are you f'in kidding me? Unlike many other products, the shingle instructions are usually printed on the bundle wrapper. While they may send a letter saying it's okay (I have a request in - despite how ridiculous the request is considering they already have it on the starter install sheet) I doubt they will agree to alter their printing rig simply to say it's okay to install the start strips along the rake. I mean, seriously, it's one thing if the altered language will remedy an installation deficiency. It's entirely another thing to have them incur the printing expense just to say a practice they recommend elsewhere is okay to do.

Sometimes I really do wonder... is this what I'll be like when I retire? So much time on my hands that I'll resort to stirring up tempests in teapots?

Jerry

If you are having a hard time understanding what I am writing or stating or interepting I am having as much trouble trying to interpret what you are trying to convey.

Elk Building Products, Inc. Manufacturer of roofing, composite decking, railing building material.

** For a Limited Wind Warranty up to 110 MPH/177 KPH for Prestique Plus or Prestique Gallery Collection, or 90 MPH/145 KPH for Prestique I, at least six (6) properly placed NAILS and Elk Starter Strip shingles are required. See application instructions printed on the Shingle wrapper.

Elk Building Products, Inc. Manufacturer of roofing, composite decking, railing building material.

In order to qualify for Elk's free 7-year "Full System Warranty," your installed roof must include each of the Elk products 1- 5 below. Note: RidgeCrest® (vented) qualifies as ridge vents and hip & ridge shingles.

4. Starter Strip – the first step to a great start for a lasting roof that can withstand severe winds.

• Elk Starter Strip – helps protect your home from the elements and completes your roof.
• 7.2" StartRite™ Roll - standard asphalt, granular surfaced, fiberglass reinforced
  with WindGuard® sealant.
• 7.2" KwikStart™ Roll - self-adhering SBS-modified asphalt, mineral surfaced,
  fiberglass reinforced with WindGuard sealant.
• 9" Starter Roll - standard asphalt, granular surfaced, fiberglass reinforced with
  WindGuard sealant.

Originally Posted by Corn Walker

While they may send a letter saying it's okay (I have a request in

Good.

That is what I was looking for - someone to do that.

I doubt they will agree to alter their printing rig simply to say it's okay to install the start strips along the rake.

You don't think they ever make changes to those printed installation instructions? They make changes every time something related changes, such as the standard and the standard date, when errors are found, etc., ....

You've got to be absolutely joking if you think they are printing the same thing they did back in 1960 or 1970, or even 1980, or even 1994 (after the nailing changed after Hurricane Andrew), or ...

"Are you f'in kidding me?" Someone would need to be totally out of their mind to think that printing is never changed.

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Jerry

If you are having a hard time understanding what I am writing or stating or interepting I am having as much trouble trying to interpret what you are trying to convey.

Raymond,

So you are telling me that you STILL DO NOT SEE the difference between what YOU SAID and what THEY SAID?

Please don't tell me I have to explain that difference and point it out for you.

If you can't post what the difference is, I will point it out to you - just thought that would not be necessary.

Jerry didn't your mom ever tell ya not to skate on thin ice? Oooops sorry its a regional thing...Florida no ice.. Canada land of ice and snow...

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

"Are you f'in kidding me?" Someone would need to be totally out of their mind to think that printing is never changed.

Thanks for quote-mining me. Go back and read the whole quote. I know they change their printing. They change it when the standard is updated. They change it when practices are updated to remedy a deficiency (hurricanes have a way of showing what works and what doesn't). What I'm saying is that this isn't one of those cases - you're expecting them to change it simply to say an optional practice that they recommend elsewhere is okay to do. Which frankly doesn't seem to fall into the "important" category to me.

Jerry

Point it out to me please.

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Well Jerry, did you read the part where it says that the manufactures 7 year warranty is void if you don't use their starter strip? If the manufacturer is stating that the installation must include a starter strip what do you think you will find in the manufactures installation instructions/warranty?

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Jerry didn't your mom ever tell ya not to skate on thin ice? Oooops sorry its a regional thing...Florida no ice.. Canada land of ice and snow...

Raymond,

Obviously, along with other things, you have forgotten that I am originally from the frozen tundra 40 miles south of Buffalo, NY, where the auto races would be held on the lake when it froze 6 inches thick and thicker, on a lake which would freeze to several feet deep.

This is what that document says:
"In order to qualify for Elk's free 7-year "Full System Warranty," your installed roof must include each of the Elk products 1- 5 below. Note: RidgeCrest® (vented) qualifies as ridge vents and hip & ridge shingles."

" ... did you read the part where it says that the manufactures 7 year warranty is void if you don't use their starter strip? If the manufacturer is stating that the installation must include a starter strip what do you think you will find in the manufactures installation instructions/warranty?"

Now, I for one am having a difficult time finding the phrases "7 year warranty is void if" or "installation must include a starter strip" to get the manufacturer's warranty.

Go back and re-read that, Raymond, and you will see ... er ... SHOULD SEE ... that they are referring to an ADDITIONAL WARRANTY, NOT the manufacturer's warranty on the shingles, but AN ADDITIONAL WARRANTY ... their super-duper-ultra-whiz-bang "full system warranty" which purportedly is not pro-rated for that 7 years.

Will you still get THE MANUFACTURER'S WARRANTY WHEN YOU DO NOT install those things? You betcha you will, just like they have been giving all this time in the past.

Even that does not say it will void the warranty, it just says you won't get that warranty if you don't do it that way.

That new fangled warranty just says it is not pro-rated, it does not say they will still not look for any way possible to not honor the warranty.

Raymond, you really do need to read - read - what you are arguing about and saying about it.

Oh, by the way, that thin ice you were referring to ... I hear it cracking all around you, better be careful.

Originally Posted by Corn Walker

They change it when practices are updated to remedy a deficiency

BINGO!

We have a winner!

Jerry

I appreciate your points, while I don't agree with you, thats okay, I can appreciate we all have our experiences and our abilities to interpret the data. My apologies for asking for you to prove your points with documents which are solely based on your opinions.

Raymond,

So you STILL DO NOT understand what you said and what that said and what the difference is?

Okay, I'll try to make this real simple for you:

Can you void something you do not have?

When something says they will not give you a better warranty but do not take away the original warranty do you still have the original warranty?

Not sure how much simpler I can make it for you.

Here is another way to put it:

I give you $100.

I say I will give you $1,000 if you do a), b), and c), but only if you do a), b), and c).

Did I void (take back) the $100? No, you still kept that.

Did I void (take back) the $1,000? No, you never had it.

Do you have to do a), b), and c)? No. Not if you don't care about the $1,000.

Do you now understand the difference between what you said and what they said?

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

BINGO!

We have a winner!

What have I won?

It cuts both ways my friend.

If installing starter shingles along the rake was a deficiency and the mfr is recommending elsewhere that this is a good idea, would they not, by this logic, change the instructions to remedy the deficient advice they provided elsewhere? That is, if it were a bad thing we would expect them to remove the recommendation from the starter shingle instructions and also note in the shingle installation instructions: "don't install starter strips along the rake."

If there were a deficiency that starter shingles along the rake ameliorated, then we would expect them to add a note to the shingle instructions, "install starter strips along the rake."

But they haven't done either, and thinking about how roofing systems work it makes sense that they haven't - starter strips along the rake add primarily aesthetic benefit. I don't believe any claimed that the presence or lack of starter shingles along the rake was a deficiency. And when we read the starter shingle installation instructions they are primarily recommended for aesthetic reasons and improved wind resistance along the rake. Probably not improved enough to warrant a wholesale recommendation, but hey, maybe they will change it.

Originally Posted by Corn Walker

If there were a deficiency that starter shingles along the rake ameliorated, then we would expect them to add a note to the shingle instructions, "install starter strips along the rake."

What they have also not done is state: "Rake Options: A) start laying shingles blah, blah, blah; B) install starter strip along rake, start laying shingles on starter strip blah, blah, blah.

And they have not done that either, have they?

JP: I would jump in here to help you, but you don't seem to need any help. Besides, these boys are so far out on their little twig of a limb, they'll soon hit the ground without much more help from either of us.

RW: You simply did not have to delete that on my account. Go ahead, put it back up here. . .

AD

We are still waitiing for definitive proof you know the type the courts like to see. You haven't provided any fodder yet ... come on you are a CMI after all!

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

AD

We are still waitiing for definitive proof you know the type the courts like to see. You haven't provided any fodder yet ... come on you are a CMI after all!

RW: Check my posts and you will see no mention a request for what "the courts like to see". I am no lawyer or judge, so I don't know what their preferences may be. It is what I would like to see in this instance that counts, at least to me. And, curiously, I have yet to see it, even after all of this banter, blather, and bellicose bravado.

Well AD, the court is the definitive answer as the buck will stop there someday with this matter given the installation is not disallowed, regardless of warranties, and from what I have seen this matter has been less than compelling from the so called experts who have based their arguement solely on opinion.

At least Jerry has been trying to convert us!

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Well AD, the court is the definitive answer as the buck will stop there someday with this matter given the installation is not disallowed, regardless of warranties, and from what I have seen this matter has been less than compelling from the so called experts who have based their arguement solely on opinion.

At least Jerry has been trying to convert us!

RW: I have not attempted to proselytize even one solitary soul. Nor have I ever approached suggesting that the installation is disallowed. This began as and remains a simple request which has yet to be fulfilled.

AD

Then provide the proof.

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

AD

Then provide the proof.

RW: Proof of what?

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

CW: After all of that jiggling of keyboard keys you still miss the point. My original post said, "To my knowledge there are no manufacturers who recommend a starter row under the rake shingles. There is also no mention of this type of installation in the NRCA's manual."

At no time have I said this cannot be done. I also never said that it should not be done. I said only what I said and you cannot prove otherwise. So then, the question remains the same to one and all. Where are the manufacturers' shingle installation instructions that EVERYONE HAS SEEN and that EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT and that ALL GOOD ROOFERS FOLLOW when they install starter rows at rakes?

Where, oh where, can these be?

Okay I think the others and myself have shown that, its just not to your liking.

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Okay I think the others and myself have shown that, its just not to your liking.

RW: I am about to write a macro for this so that I will not find it necessary to re-type it ad infinitum: I would very much like to see a shingle manufacturer's shingle installation instruction which requires a starter row at the roof rake.

This is just a one-sentence and very simple request. I guess that Canuck air has frozen some of your vital wetware to the point that certain statements do not compute. This must be one of them.

It could also be a moose tick situation. I did not want to broach the subject due to its delicacy.

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

RW: I am about to write a macro for this so that I will not find it necessary to re-type it ad infinitum: I would very much like to see a shingle manufacturer's shingle installation instruction which requires a starter row at the roof rake.

This is just a one-sentence and very simple request. I guess that Canuck air has frozen some of your vital wetware to the point that certain statements do not compute. This must be one of them.

The personal invective is just so lame.

I'd like to point out that you've changed your question from "recommend" to "require." Subtle but very important change. What I've requested is to see if it's "allowed" since they already "recommend" it elsewhere. "Required" is a much higher standard that you're not likely to see.

This all assumes the contractor would actually pause a second to read installation instructions.

Here is IKO's response:

Starter strips on the rake is a good idea, especially in high wind
areas. IKO makes every effort to cover the key aspects of shingle
installation on the shingle wrapper, but it is a challenge to fit
everything on there related to the entire roof installation process
(rakes, starters, membranes, underlayments, valleys, flashings,
chimneys, etc.)

I've asked if it's possible to get an engineering statement to that effect (the above response was from their technical support team).

Originally Posted by Corn Walker

The personal invective is just so lame.

I'd like to point out that you've changed your question from "recommend" to "require." Subtle but very important change. What I've requested is to see if it's "allowed" since they already "recommend" it elsewhere. "Required" is a much higher standard that you're not likely to see.

CW: That is OK with me, "recommend" works just as well as "require". Either will do. And you are quite wrong about the standard variation. A manufacturer's recommendation is the same as a requirement in the eyes of the code. If it were a mere suggestion, that would be different.

Here's an example: If you were standing in front of me complaining about the "invective" in my posts, I would recommend that you change your tune. If you did not, it would then be required of you. So then can you see how my recommendation would equal a requirement?

Originally Posted by Stuart Brooks

This all assumes the contractor would actually pause a second to read installation instructions.

SB: Add to that the probability that he is not even able to read the instructions.

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

CW: That is OK with me, "recommend" works just as well as "require". Either will do. And you are quite wrong about the standard variation. A manufacturer's recommendation is the same as a requirement in the eyes of the code. If it were a mere suggestion, that would be different.

Here's an example: If you were standing in front of me complaining about the "invective" in my posts, I would recommend that you change your tune. If you did not, it would then be required of you. So then can you see how my recommendation would equal a requirement?

No. I suggest you consult a dictionary next time you try to lecture someone about the meaning of words, because you don't know what you're talking about.

I've contacted the mfr. They say it's a good idea but they're not going to change the wrapper because they can't fit every good practice on there. From there I can only assume you just want to argue, not get or provide any helpful information.

I doubt you're in any position to "require" anything of me. Your options would be to listen to the complaint or leave.

Wait, that's a darned good idea - I think I'll be opting for the latter, because you're just being silly now.

No. I suggest you consult a dictionary next time you try to lecture someone about the meaning of words, because you don't know what you're talking about.

CW: I have 200 of them (collector). Which would you suggest?

From there I can only assume you just want to argue, not get or provide any helpful information.

CW: A perusal of this forum might indicate to anyone with merely a passing interest in the truth that I do contribute helpful information. I often do that through argumentation which, like many Americans, you believe to be less than PC and not the proper format for making ones assertions known to others. Sad, but true.

I doubt you're in any position to "require" anything of me.

CW: You are of course referring to the hypothetical situation I used for demonstration purposes. In that situation I would indeed prevail.

Your options would be to listen to the complaint or leave.

CW: You, my misguided friend, do not regulate my options. Not here. Not elsewhere.

Wait, that's a darned good idea - I think I'll be opting for the latter

CW: Why wait? Make haste!

It's just like a lib to twist hings to there own liking. They'll beat around the bush and actually believe what they are saying is true until there nonsense is ignored.

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

SB: Add to that the probability that he is not even able to read the instructions.

True, and I had that as a follower but deleted it. It seems there are a lot of contractors in the group so I left that out as well as some comments about NASCAR, Budweiser, and Topless Bars

just like a lib to twist hings to there own liking.

MS: And it befits a conservative to be envious of that ability.

Originally Posted by Stuart Brooks

True, and I had that as a follower but deleted it. It seems there are a lot of contractors in the group so I left that out as well as some comments about NASCAR, Budweiser, and Topless Bars

SB: Don't be too hard on the Skoal-droolers. Someone has to inhabit that realm of society. Besides, once you drink enough of that poor excuse for a beer, it's all you can do to sit and watch tiny insignificant things go around in a circle.

Better them than me.

Originally Posted by phil kaznowski

Does anyone know if asphalt roofs require the starter course to also be installed up the rake portion of the eave? I live in an area that receives heavy snow, some contractors do it, some don't. I hhave looked high and low including the CBC and this is not addressed.

That depends. If you believe the word "recommend" is the same as "require" and you use starter strips, and the installation instructions for those starter strips "recommends" using them along the rake, then use of the starter strips would "require" that installation.

However, since the asphalt shingle installation instructions don't mention using starter strips along the rake, if you also believe that install instructions not addressing a particular method means that method is disallowed, then using starter strips would put you in the position of requiring you to install something in a manner that is disallowed.

Therefore the only logical remedy to this situation is not to use starter strips. In doing so you avoid this conflict altogether. Instead you should use 3 tab shingles, cut the tabs off, and invert them so the adhesive is along the eave. Using this as your starter course method is the only approved method as it is the only one specified in the installation instructions that does not also lead to a disallowed installation.

Your best bet is to convince the shingle manufacturers to change the installation instructions they print on the bundle wrappers to indicate that starter shingles are 'recommended' (or 'required', take your pick) along the rake or to change the starter strip installation instructions to no longer require (I know, it says 'recommend' but I have it from a reliable source they mean the same thing) installing them along the rake.

In either case, whether they are required or disallowed or both, there's no indication that using them in such a manner is advantageous for snow/ice reasons. The manufacturers state the benefit, were it allowed, is for appearance and wind resistance.

Hope this helps.

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

CW: I have 200 of them (collector). Which would you suggest?

Pick any one that says "required" is the same as "recommended." Don't rush, I have time.

Originally Posted by Corn Walker

I'd like to point out that you've changed your question from "recommend" to "require." Subtle but very important change. What I've requested is to see if it's "allowed" since they already "recommend" it elsewhere. "Required" is a much higher standard that you're not likely to see.

I am still looking for shingle installation instructions which allow that as an option.

I am waiting for a response from GAF to my e-mail I sent them asking them about it.

I will post that e-mail here when I receive it.

Originally Posted by Corn Walker

Pick any one that says "required" is the same as "recommended." Don't rush, I have time.

CW: I never said they are synonymous in the daily vernacular. I said what I said. Put that doobie down. Take a deep breath. Go back and read my post. Think about it. Get back to me.

I am still looking for shingle installation instructions which allow that as an option.

JP: It is clear by now that these are not forthcoming.

I am waiting for a response from GAF to my e-mail I sent them asking them about it.

I will post that e-mail here when I receive it.

JP: Oh, would you?

JP no snippet's the whole enchilada the GAF sends ya!!!

Originally Posted by Mike Schulz

JP no snippet's the whole enchilada the GAF sends ya!!!

MS: What? You don't trust the Flahidian?

Originally Posted by Mike Schulz

JP no snippet's the whole enchilada the GAF sends ya!!!

Absolutely, the entire thing.

I am expecting a copy of a revised installation instruction, which would actually show that ALL of us are correct ... Aaron and myself for pointing out that it is not there now, and you others for saying it was okay - meaning that is in NOW okay.

At least that is what I am expecting. We shall see.

At least that is what I am expecting.

JP: Wish in one hand, and . . . in the other . . .

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

JP: Wish in one hand, and . . . in the other . . .

Aaron,

Oh yea of little faith ... I worded my e-mail such that they would be foolish to give it a quick answer.

I am sure my e-mail went from technical support to engineering to ... someone who is aware of what it will take to answer it properly.

I have gotten replies from both GAF and Certainteed stating that they recommend the practice, but they did not answer my origianl question concerning documentation which I am still inquiring on. Once I hear something I will post it.

Phil K.
Clio,CA

I am sure my e-mail went from technical support to engineering to ... someone who is aware of what it will take to answer it properly.

JP: Well, that will not be me . . .

Ribbon courses are generally used so the roofer can be sloppy in the cutting of the rake edge. Most ARMA (Asphalt Roofing Manufactuers ) and the NRCA (National Roofing Contractor Association) specs do not address this . They do not forbid it . It seems to have started as Laminate (dragon tooth shingles ie . Timberline ,oakridge etc became more widely used.) The first usage of ribbbon courses were in valkley area.Certainteed and Gaf / Elk have details of this installation on their web sites

The only problem is if the horizontal shingles are too short and allow cappillary draw of water under the shingles at the rake. It usually is not a problem .It can in areas cause some leakage. A fix would be to caulk the horizontal shingles by starting at the bottom and running a caulk gun under the horizontal shingles and running a bead up the rake. Use only a compatible caulk.(roofing cement , neoprene or Geo cel ) Silicones do not work well in this instance

Mike Moser mjmoser.com

If you email me at gusbas@aol.com I can reply with the shingle instructions as a pdf

Mike Moser

As this thread continues it's wavering our way and AD is going to have to kiss some hairy dairy airs to back step his way out.......... JP stopped awhile back and went the spec route which was smart not like the smart a#@ remarks by AD But that's why I like the guy.....He is persistent and will squirm his way around something in a minute.

Well at the very least we all learned something. Not to be stubborn, all knowing, all seeing, and to be humble in defeat!

Here is the response from Certainteed. No I did not ask them to change their installation instructions:

Good afternoon, Brandon –

Starters on the rake are allowed. It’s diagrammed in the installation instructions for our Hatteras shingle (pg. 4). It is also required for an upgraded wind warranty on our Landmark shingles.

Thanks Brandon.

Originally Posted by Mike Moser

If you email me at gusbas@aol.com I can reply with the shingle instructions as a pdf

Mike Moser

Mike,

The ones you sent me do *not* show that rake starter course.

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Well at the very least we all learned something. Not to be stubborn, all knowing, all seeing, and to be humble in defeat!

So far ... no one has been defeated.

Once the information is in, no one will still be defeated, and ALL of us will learn something.

What is not yet known.

Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore

Here is the response from Certainteed. No I did not ask them to change their installation instructions:

Good afternoon, Brandon –

Starters on the rake are allowed. It’s diagrammed in the installation instructions for our Hatteras shingle (pg. 4). It is also required for an upgraded wind warranty on our Landmark shingles.

Brandon,

Okay, finally there is ONE brand which at least shows the starter strip going up the rake, too bad they do not say so in the instructions.

At least they show it there.

Give a partial thumbs up to CertainTeed for their Hatters, but what about the rest of their shingles and what about the written instructions? (That is the reason for the "partial" thumbs up - it is a start in the right direction.

Now we have to see what GAF says.

Brandon, write back and thank them and ask about their other shingles, and say 'Oh, by the way, can you send me a revised installation instruction when that is incorporated into the text and identified? Thank you.'