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  1. #1
    phil kaznowski's Avatar
    phil kaznowski Guest

    Default Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Does anyone know if asphalt roofs require the starter course to also be installed up the rake portion of the eave? I live in an area that receives heavy snow, some contractors do it, some don't. I hhave looked high and low including the CBC and this is not addressed.

    Thanks,

    Phil K.
    Clio, CA

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    I have only heard that some roofers do this to direct water inward so there's not so much dripping off the rake.

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
    www.ArnoldHomeInspections.com

  3. #3
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
    Michael Garrity Guest

    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    check out manufacturers websites if your not sure about anything. Try GAF.COM for roofing info.


  4. #4
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Quote Originally Posted by phil kaznowski View Post
    Does anyone know if asphalt roofs require the starter course to also be installed up the rake portion of the eave? I live in an area that receives heavy snow, some contractors do it, some don't. I hhave looked high and low including the CBC and this is not addressed.

    Thanks,

    Phil K.
    Clio, CA
    PK: To my knowledge there are no manufacturers who recommend a starter row under the rake shingles. There is also no mention of this type of installation in the NRCA's manual.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Phil,

    Like Aaron I am not aware of any manufacturer which prescribes doing that, and, doing that would (as stated above) direct the water back across the shingle in an attempt so it does not flow off the rake of the roof, but ... YOU DO NOT WANT to do that as that is simply causing water to flow laterally across shingles designed and intended to have water flowing vertically down over them.

    Doing that would simply be asking for roof leaks.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  6. #6
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
    Michael Garrity Guest

    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    A starter coarse at the rake is an option recommended by shingle manufacturers,some roofers do it some do not.Nothing to do with water direction.It is a neater job,[look up],locks the shingles down and provides a straight edge for the roofer.It is not expensive and adds very little cost to a new roof.


  7. #7
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Garrity View Post
    A starter coarse at the rake is an option recommended by shingle manufacturers,some roofers do it some do not.Nothing to do with water direction.It is a neater job,[look up],locks the shingles down and provides a straight edge for the roofer.It is not expensive and adds very little cost to a new roof.
    MG: That's news to me. Please document this opinion from any major manufacturer for my edification.


  8. #8
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    MG: Good luck with that. I just revisited ARMA, NRCA, GAF, Certainteed, and Owens-Corning materials - nada, nothing at all about starter strips under the shingles at the rake. Maybe you dreamed this . . .


  9. #9
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
    Michael Garrity Guest

    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    A.D.
    Check out the GAF website



    http://www.gaf.com


  10. #10
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
    Michael Garrity Guest

    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs


  11. #11
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
    Michael Garrity Guest

    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    go to individual products details and then starter strips


  12. #12
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
    Michael Garrity Guest

    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs


  13. #13

    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    YOU DO NOT WANT to do that as that is simply causing water to flow laterally across shingles designed and intended to have water flowing vertically down over them.
    Just my opinion, but I call bull on this one. I've never seen this installation cause a problem, and many of the good roofers around here use this detail. Water is not going to run laterally-- it will barely drain diagonally as there is not much of a cant due to the slight build up at the rakes.
    Heck, I use this detail on any roof I install as well. It not only helps protect the rake edges, it also helps make a neat line at rake edges.


  14. #14
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
    Michael Garrity Guest

    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    from Owens Corning

    Starter Shingle Roll eliminates the need for cutting shingle tabs or inverting them to create a starter row, saving installation time. Application is a snap too. Simply apply a single course of Starter Shingle Roll along a clean, dry and smooth eave line or rake edge, after removing the release sheet. Apply the Starter Shingle Roll directly onto the WeatherLock® underlayment or a layer of felt. Once it is pressed into place, you're ready to begin shingling. (See installation instructions for details.)


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Michael,

    Please link to the specific installation instructions you are referring to.

    There is A LOT of information on that site and the three I just went to DID NOT SHOW placing starter strips up the rakes.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  16. #16
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
    Michael Garrity Guest

    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    thanks Brandon


  17. #17
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    MG: I am not referring to the various manufacturers' attempts to sell more of their pre-made starter strip materials. That's just good marketing. Show me where they recommend this in their shingle literature. Better yet, illustrate where ARMA, NRCA or ASTM recommend this.

    I am not saying you are wrong on this. It is just the first I've ever heard of it. No roofers in this area use starter strips at the rakes. I have put on a few roofs myself in the past and never even considered doing this. There is simply no purpose in it that I can see.


  18. #18
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
    Michael Garrity Guest

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore View Post
    Just my opinion, but I call bull on this one. I've never seen this installation cause a problem, and many of the good roofers around here use this detail. Water is not going to run laterally-- it will barely drain diagonally as there is not much of a cant due to the slight build up at the rakes.
    Heck, I use this detail on any roof I install as well. It not only helps protect the rake edges, it also helps make a neat line at rake edges.

    As Aaron and I are asking of Michael, provide written documentation from the manufacturer of this being allowed.

    We all, as home inspectors, KNOW that contractors DO THINGS BECAUSE THEY THINK it is a correct method, but when challenged they cannot show it was - that is what keeps us in business, so ... in that same vein of thought ... think of us as being from Missouri and "show me".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  20. #20
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    MG: Again, and not to put too fine a point on it, I am looking for the recommendations not in the pre-made starter strip material literature, but rather in the shingle installation instructions.


  21. #21
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
    Michael Garrity Guest

    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    A PRO roofer will always use a starter strip.It is just a better job.Adds pocket change to the cost of a new roof.


  22. #22
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Garrity View Post
    A PRO roofer will always use a starter strip.It is just a better job.Adds pocket change to the cost of a new roof.
    MG: Please do not use an impromptu appeal to so-called professional preference or popularity. That is not what I requested. I am not impressed with hearsay, but rather with specific information from recognized authorities in black and white.


  23. #23
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
    Michael Garrity Guest

    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    MG: Again, and not to put too fine a point on it, I am looking for the recommendations not in the pre-made starter strip material literature, but rather in the shingle installation instructions.

    do you want to know how to install shingles?I thought we were talking about starter strip.

    and J.P you should know that a good contractor should follow manufacturers instructions because in construction there is a system for everything.
    Talk to you local roofing supply company.


  24. #24
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    do you want to know how to install shingles?I thought we were talking about starter strip.
    MG: You are getting awfully wiggly now and seemingly refusing to offer up any proof of your claim. Is that because you have none, or are you purposely stringing us along for a surprise grand unveiling?


  25. #25

    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Hi Jerry,

    I was just commenting on part of your reply, as it did not make sense to me.
    YOU DO NOT WANT to do that as that is simply causing water to flow laterally across shingles designed and intended to have water flowing vertically down over them.
    As Aaron and I are asking of Michael, provide written documentation from the manufacturer of this being allowed.

    We all, as home inspectors, KNOW that contractors DO THINGS BECAUSE THEY THINK it is a correct method, but when challenged they cannot show it was - that is what keeps us in business, so ... in that same vein of thought ... think of us as being from Missouri and "show me".
    I would bet that if you contacted any manufacturers tech. rep., they would tell you that this installation is just fine.

    Contractors who install the rake starter are going above and beyond min. standards on this one in my opinion. They would save money and time by not doing it this way. As home inspectors, we are used to seeing contractors cut corners, not go above and beyond.


  26. #26
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Garrity View Post
    and J.P you should know that a good contractor should follow manufacturers instructions because in construction there is a system for everything.

    Michael,

    I do know that, which is why I am asking for you to provide the installation instruction which you say exist - for the very reason you stated.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore View Post
    Contractors who install the rake starter are going above and beyond min. standards on this one in my opinion. They would save money and time by not doing it this way. As home inspectors, we are used to seeing contractors cut corners, not go above and beyond.
    Brandon,

    Again, I am asking for the installation instructions which show that, you know, the ones you should be following.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  28. #28
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Brandon,

    Again, I am asking for the installation instructions which show that, you know, the ones you should be following.
    JP: I think you should resort to monosyllabic communications with these two. Any more than that and I fear that we may lose them alotogether.


  29. #29
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
    Michael Garrity Guest

    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    AD Millar

    the D stands for what? Dummy?Dodo?Keep up with the latest in construction.Is your eye sight failing or is it time for your afternoon nap.It is all in the manufacturers website.It's called reading.I must say some of the stuff you write is funny.Probably not intentional but funny all the same.Thanks A.D. your the man.


  30. #30
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    AD Millar
    MG: That's "Miller" to you.

    is it time for your afternoon nap.
    MG: Had it already.

    It is all in the manufacturers website.
    MG: Help this old guy by pointing it out to me.

    It's called reading.
    MG: Seems I heard something about that.

    I must say some of the stuff you write is funny.Probably not intentional but funny all the same.
    MG: Funny in a cynical kind of fashion.


  31. #31
    phil kaznowski's Avatar
    phil kaznowski Guest

    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    I spoke with three reputable roofers in the area that all said the same thing, " a starter course at the rake portion of the eave is a better practice in snow country due to ice dams, but is not required." One of the roofers has said that some manufacturers do require this and I am going to research. Any information found will be relayed.

    Thanks for the discussion (and help!)

    Phil K.
    Clio, CA


  32. #32
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Have seen many roofs up here with the starter strip as described. Have seen other roofs without. Its a personal preference of the roofer, and there is no problem with doing it.

    Its the same arguement about tapping wire nuts, its not prescribed in the code but it is not against code.

    Also factor in regional differences.

    Also see
    Home Improvement 1-2-3 - Google Books

    Starter Strip

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    Last edited by Raymond Wand; 08-06-2009 at 07:59 PM.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Have seen many roofs up here with the starter strip as described. Have seen other roofs without. Its a personal preference of the roofer, and there is no problem with doing it.

    Its the same arguement about tapping wire nuts, its not prescribed in the code but it is not against code.

    Also factor in regional differences.
    Raymond,

    To all the above statements: Nope.

    It depends on the manufacturer's installation instructions as to whether or not it is allowed.

    And the manufacturer's installation instructions ARE CODE.

    It IS NOT "preference of the roofer".

    It is completely different than the wire nut discussion.

    It is not a factor of regional difference ... UNLESS ... you guessed it ... UNLESS the manufacturer's installation instructions allow for it.

    Thus, all that Aaron and I are asking for is for someone to produce a set of MANUFACTURER'S INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS which shows that, and Phil has said he is checking on that.

    You, Michael, and Brandon are only throwing in 'Well, I've seen it done that way, and the roofers say ... '

    You ever hear, for example, electricians say 'Oh, it is okay to put two neutral conductors in the same terminal in the panel.'?

    Most likely the answer is yes, so that provides a lot of credibility for believing contractors, especially roofers, right? That is what you are saying.

    Aaron and I are simply asking for someone to "prove it" ... "show us" a manufacturer's installation instruction which shows or states that is allowable.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  34. #34
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
    Michael Garrity Guest

    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs


  35. #35
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
    Michael Garrity Guest

    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    You, Michael, and Brandon are only throwing in 'Well, I've seen it done that way, and the roofers say ... '

    I sent plenty of links.If your too lazy to look and read that is your problem


  36. #36
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Jerry

    Why don't you provide documentation where it is not allowed? If its not mentioned as a no no in the code its not against code. Remember the code is a minimum, therefore your arguements in my opinion are moot. The installation is not harmful nor can be shown to be a detriment to the shingles or decking, or longevity.

    This is not a home inspection issue and it certainly is not a deal blower, regardless whether you think it incorrect fwiw.

    Cheers,


  37. #37
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Michael

    Thats very compelling info at the link, and it really cannot be disputed as none of the other so-called experts have provided contradictory evidence but only their opinions based on .... hmmmm ... based on.... hmmmmm

    Thanks for the link. I like reading!


  38. #38

    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    JP: I think you should resort to monosyllabic communications with these two. Any more than that and I fear that we may lose them alotogether.
    I only had a few minutes to post before going out on a job. I don't always have the time to sit down and research things, especially when something is flat out a non issue in my opinion.

    If a rake starter course shingle is installed, and then the manufacturers spec's are met on top of that shingle, what is the problem? What if someone installs ice and water shield at a rake edge, and the manufacturers installation instructions don't specifically state that it needs to be installed, is it wrong? What if a roofer uses an 8x8 tin shingle for step flashing instead of the manufacturers recommended 5x8, is that a defect?

    I challenge you to contact any shingle manufacturers technical rep who will put something in writing stating that a rake starter is not allowed. It looks like you may have some free time on your hands to get that done..


  39. #39

    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    MG: Good luck with that. I just revisited ARMA, NRCA, GAF, Certainteed, and Owens-Corning materials - nada, nothing at all about starter strips under the shingles at the rake. Maybe you dreamed this . . .
    Here's the mention : http://www.gaf.com/Content/Documents/20216.pdf
    It's already been posted, but just wanted to post it again.

    MG: Again, and not to put too fine a point on it, I am looking for the recommendations not in the pre-made starter strip material literature, but rather in the shingle installation instructions.
    Why would a manufacturer make the stuff, show where it is to be installed, and then not allow it???

    Here's another Google book that shows the installation if you care to see it: http://books.google.com/books?id=LioRcqIJbIAC&pg=PA79&lpg=PA79&dq=rake+sta rter+course+installation&source=bl&ots=lX24pfscZP& sig=Ld3nbfqE823uuP_VCDQQ4h5UyxQ&hl=en&ei=1aZ7SvD0K IiwswOs1KDuCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum =3#v=onepage&q=rake%20starter%20course%20installat ion&f=false

    Here's some info. from Certainteed:
    (for use with Grand Manor
    , Centennial Slateand Hatteras® shingles)
    (required for Presidential Shake
    TL and Presidential Shakeshingles)
    (for use with English-sized shingles 12" x 36" and
    metric-sized shingles 13-1/4" x 38-3/4")

    CertainTeed
    Starter—English
    CertainTeed
    Starter—Metric
    Metric starter shingle is designed specifically for use with Landmark

    Series shingles. Rather than cutting expensive field shingles to use as
    starters, you can save time and money by starting with Swiftstart.
    Swiftstart
    • “Hatteras” dual-sealant strips at bottom edge for 110 mph wind
    resistance
    • Installation is a snap — no need to cut tabs off expensive shingles
    • Provides a straight factory-cut eave edge for a clean look
    Excellent as a rake edge for increased wind resistance
    • Saves time and money
    • Required for Hatteras wind warranty coverage

    Taken from here: http://www.certainteed.com/resources/accessories.pdf


    Last edited by Brandon Whitmore; 08-06-2009 at 10:13 PM. Reason: adding info.

  40. #40
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore View Post
    Here's the mention : http://www.gaf.com/Content/Documents/20216.pdf
    It's already been posted, but just wanted to post it again.



    Why would a manufacturer make the stuff, show where it is to be installed, and then not allow it???

    Here's another Google book that shows the installation if you care to see it: Renovation - Google Books

    Here's some info. from Certainteed:

    (for use with Grand Manor
    , Centennial Slateand Hatteras® shingles)

    (required for Presidential Shake

    TL and Presidential Shakeshingles)
    (for use with English-sized shingles 12" x 36" and
    metric-sized shingles 13-1/4" x 38-3/4")
    CertainTeed
    Starter—English
    CertainTeed
    Starter—Metric
    Metric starter shingle is designed specifically for use with Landmark



    Series shingles. Rather than cutting expensive field shingles to use as
    starters, you can save time and money by starting with Swiftstart.
    Swiftstart
    • “Hatteras” dual-sealant strips at bottom edge for 110 mph wind
    resistance
    • Installation is a snap — no need to cut tabs off expensive shingles
    • Provides a straight factory-cut eave edge for a clean look
    Excellent as a rake edge for increased wind resistance
    • Saves time and money

    • Required for Hatteras wind warranty coverage

    Taken from here: http://www.certainteed.com/resources/accessories.pdf


    BW: At the risk of repeating myself over and over and over again, I am not looking for the installation instructions for the manufacturers' pre-made starter strips which they, with good reason, have a vested interest in promoting. MG, using his one-trick-pony approach, has already attempted to drill this red herring into our minds, with high hopes that his bluff is not called.

    I am interested in seeing in black and white at least one manufacturer's shingle installation instructions which makes even the slightest mention of rake starter strips.

    You find it, post it, and I'll buy it. Otherwise quit wasting my time with your repetitious runaround BS.




  41. #41
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    GAF Materials Corp - Residential and Commercial Roofing

    Go to the GAF site, click on 'Shingles Styles & Colors', click on 'Royall Sovereign', scroll down and click on the 'Application Instructions' (that is what the link above is *supposed to* link to, but I believe the GAF site does not allow that direct link).

    Okay, do you have have yet?

    Okay, SHOW ME IN THERE where that is allowed.

    Maybe I am just missing it.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  42. #42
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    GAF Materials Corp - Residential and Commercial Roofing

    Go to the GAF site, click on 'Shingles Styles & Colors', click on 'Royall Sovereign', scroll down and click on the 'Application Instructions' (that is what the link above is *supposed to* link to, but I believe the GAF site does not allow that direct link).

    Okay, do you have have yet?

    Okay, SHOW ME IN THERE where that is allowed.

    Maybe I am just missing it.
    JP: You can't miss what is not there. Interestingly, GAF has a video on their site showing the precise method for installation a starter row. It appears that nothing at all is said or shown regarding the rake.


  43. #43
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    I am interested in seeing in black and white at least one manufacturer's shingle installation instructions which makes even the slightest mention of rake starter strips.

    You find it, post it, and I'll buy it. Otherwise quit wasting my time with your repetitious runaround BS.

    [/LEFT]
    So that's the ONLY standard of evidence you'll allow? The shingle installation instructions must specifically mention using a starter strip at the rake? And why exactly should the OP care about your standard of evidence?

    Let's look at a single manufacturer: IKO.

    The IKO shingle installation instructions mention the following about the rake:

    Apply metal drip edges on top of any underlay along rake edges and directly to the deck along eaves.

    They don't say what kind of drip edge to use or how wide it should be, only that there should be one. But since because they don't mention additional rake details does that mean that any additional detail, above and beyond the minimum requirements in the instructions, are disallowed? Of course that doesn't make sense. Here's what the instructions say about eave protection.

    EAVE PROTECTION:
    Apply eave protection as per building code requirements, overhanging eaves by 1/4" to 3/8" and extending up the roof at least 12" beyond the interior wall line. Ice & Water Protector is recommended for best performance, applied according to instructions printed on each box.


    So if I look at the box for the IKO Ice & Water protector what do I read?

    Drip Edge
    • Drip edges must be located under the membrane at the eaves, and over the membrane at rake edges.


    So the shingle install references the membrane install, which references drip edges at the eaves and rakes. But does that mean I can only use IKO Ice & Water as my underlayment since it's the only brand mentioned in their installation instructions? That's a rhetorical question; of course I can use any underlayment that meets the minimum performance standards required. So while we're sticking with a single manufacturer here, we should be clear that other roofing details may be provided by other manufacturers unless specifically disallowed.

    Now the IKO shingle instructions don't say anything about their starter strip product. In fact, they mention cutting the tabs off of 3-tab shingles:

    STARTER COURSE: If 3-tab shingles are used, cut off the tabs along a line level with the top of the cutouts, and install the starter course with the factory applied sealant adjacent to the eaves overhanging the rake edge and eaves by 1/4" - 3/8". Begin starter course (A) with a shingle cut 4" short so that joints will not coincide with joints between first course shingles.


    But what if I'm using their architectural shingles? There are no tabs to cut off. What's a guy to do? Oh, they make a starter strip product for this installation you say? How convenient. Here the installation instructions specifically state:

    IKO’S LEADING EDGE SHINGLES CAN BE USED AS A STARTER STRIP EITHER BENEATH THE FIRST COURSE OF ROOF SHINGLES, OR AT RAKE EDGES. AT THE RAKES, IKO’S LEADING EDGE PROVIDES A STRAIGHT EDGE TO TRIM THE OVERLAYING COURSES TO, AND HELP SEALS THE SHINGLE ENDS, REDUCING WIND DAMAGE.

    They further go on to state:

    APPLICATION - RAKE EDGES
    1. APPLY ANY UNDERLAYMENT, FLASHINGS OR DRIP EDGES REQUIRED.
    2. ALIGN LEADING EDGE SHINGLE VERTICALLY UP THE RAKE EDGE, OVERHANGING THE RAKE EDGE BY 1/4” TO 3/8”. ENSURE THE STRIP IS LAYING FLAT, GRANULE SIDE UP, WITH THE SEALANT SPOTS TOWARDS THE OUTER EDGE OF THE ROOF. FASTEN WITH ENOUGH NAILS TO HOLD THE PRODUCT IN PLACE UNTIL THE APPLICATION OF THE FIELD COURSES OF ROOFING SHINGLES.
    3. APPLY ROOF SHINGLES AS PER THE INSTRUCTIONS PRINTED ON EACH PRODUCT’S PACKAGE, TRIMMING THE RAKE EDGE OF THE PRODUCT EVEN WITH THE EDGE OF THE LEADING EDGE SHINGLES.


    In sum, I think you're barking up the wrong tree here. The installation instructions don't mention every possible installation or finishing detail. They don't even mention using a starter strip that's not a three tab shingle with the tabs cut off. By your standard, you're not allowed to use a pre-fab starter strip at the eaves - let alone at the rake - since they're not "in black and white" in the "manufacturer's shingle installation instructions."

    In the case of start strips, it seems clear that they are not disallowed, that they should be installed according to their instructions, and those instructions allow for installation at the rake edge. If this was contrary to the shingle installation instructions then one would expect that they would specifically state such, either in the shingle instructions or the starter strip instructions, especially when both products are made by the same manufacturer. Given that the manufacturer recommends it (albeit not where you want to see it recommended) and it's not disallowed by code or installation instructions or technical data sheet or local codes or... well, you draw your own conclusion.


  44. #44
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    CW: After all of that jiggling of keyboard keys you still miss the point. My original post said, "To my knowledge there are no manufacturers who recommend a starter row under the rake shingles. There is also no mention of this type of installation in the NRCA's manual."

    At no time have I said this cannot be done. I also never said that it should not be done. I said only what I said and you cannot prove otherwise. So then, the question remains the same to one and all. Where are the manufacturers' shingle installation instructions that EVERYONE HAS SEEN and that EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT and that ALL GOOD ROOFERS FOLLOW when they install starter rows at rakes?

    Where, oh where, can these be?


  45. #45
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    At no time have I said this cannot be done. I also never said that it should not be done. I said only what I said and you cannot prove otherwise. So then, the question remains the same to one and all. Where are the manufacturers' shingle installation instructions that EVERYONE HAS SEEN and that EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT and that ALL GOOD ROOFERS FOLLOW when they install starter rows at rakes?

    Where, oh where, can these be?
    Who cares?

    A better question is, is it good practice, bad practice, recommended practice, or disallowed practice?

    1) It appears to be good practice, particularly in high-wind areas.
    2) No evidence found to indicate it's bad practice.
    3) They are recommended by the starter strip manufacturers, who not so coincidentally are also the shingle manufacturers, for high wind areas.
    4) No evidence thus far that they are disallowed.

    So if all of the evidence points to it being good and recommended practice, then it seems to me the only problem is that it's not widely recommended enough in the shingle installation instructions. But hey, how is that different than any practice that goes above and beyond the code and manufacturer's minimums?


  46. #46
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Who cares?
    CW: I do. It was my question.

    A better question is, is it good practice, bad practice, recommended practice, or disallowed practice?
    CW: Better for you, perhaps, but not for me. Those are your questions and not mine.

    1) It appears to be good practice, particularly in high-wind areas.
    2) No evidence found to indicate it's bad practice.
    3) They are recommended by the starter strip manufacturers, who not so coincidentally are also the shingle manufacturers, for high wind areas.
    4) No evidence thus far that they are disallowed.
    CW: No argument there. But then, there is nothing I know of in writing that says you cannot also apply peanut butter to the roofing nails before you drive them.

    So if all of the evidence points to it being good and recommended practice,
    CW: No. What would point to it being a recommended practice is a written recommendation from a recognized authority. That would not be you.

    then it seems to me the only problem is that it's not widely recommended enough in the shingle installation instructions.
    CW: No again. It is not only not widely recommended. It is simply NOT recommended.

    But hey, how is that different than any practice that goes above and beyond the code and manufacturer's minimums?
    CW: It's not.


  47. #47
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    CW: No. What would point to it being a recommended practice is a written recommendation from a recognized authority. That would not be you.
    It's not you either. So?

    In the example I quoted it is in fact recommended by a code recognized authority - the shingle manufacturer. I understand that you don't think the starter strip installation instructions are a sufficient recommendation. However your posts on this subject don't incline me to place much stock in what you think because thus far you haven't contributed anything other than ad hominems and repeating your question.

    Here, I'll answer the question you asked plus some questions questions of my own (because I think my questions are better than yours).

    Q: Are starter strips recommended by the shingle manufactures?
    A: Yes, most shingle manufacturers recommend the use of starter strips.

    Q: Are starter strips recommended by the shingle manufacturer to be installed at the rake?
    A: Yes, in at least two cases the shingle manufacturers provide a written recommendation to install starter strips at the rake for appearance and wind performance reasons.

    Q: Are the recommendation for starter strips to be installed at the rake written in the shingle installation instructions?
    A: None have been found so far.

    I think you know this already but you just like taking a piss on these boards. To each his own I presume.


  48. #48
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    J.P and AD home inspectors answer to Laurel and Hardy. Very very funny.I thought you were a lot smarter Jerry.I know you like to get the last word in and that's ok. Now AD over in Texas. I really pity your customers.


  49. #49
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Michael

    You can lead a horse to water, but....


  50. #50
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Garrity View Post
    J.P and AD home inspectors answer to Laurel and Hardy. Very very funny.I thought you were a lot smarter Jerry.I know you like to get the last word in and that's ok. Now AD over in Texas. I really pity your customers.

    When you get to court and the opposing attorney ask "And to what standard is your method based on?", you can answer "Well, *I* think it is better that way.", while Aaron and I will say "On page so-and-so of such-and-such installation instructions it shows and says to do ... ".

    Guess which one wins?

    Hint: It will not be "Well, *I* think it is better that way."

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  51. #51
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Your standards are slipping Jerry.Remove your blinkers,put on your reading glasses and look through the links again.Case closed.See you in different thread or post.BYE


  52. #52
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    An attorney would not be asking that question because there is nothing wrong with the installation of a starter strip, no one can prove its not wrong but the evidence by way of links and in the field suggests otherwise. Prove it is a faulty installation! No one can!

    It is not an issue and is certainly not going to affect a realestate deal because there is no problem. Therefore the issue is moot in a court of law.


  53. #53

    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    It sounds like we've all had our say on this one. Anyone else that ever has this question can now find what they need here. There's enough info. for a person to form their own professional opinion.

    To the OP-- good question

    Next question..............


  54. #54
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    When you get to court and the opposing attorney ask "And to what standard is your method based on?", you can answer "Well, *I* think it is better that way.", while Aaron and I will say "On page so-and-so of such-and-such installation instructions it shows and says to do ... ".

    Guess which one wins?

    Hint: It will not be "Well, *I* think it is better that way."
    While in general that is true, that is not true of this specific case because we do have installation instructions "on page so and so." At that point the opposing counsels can piss over whether or not the fact that GAF or IKO or whoever else makes a product and recommends installing it along the rake are thereby warranting it for a specific purpose. It would be one thing if there was no mention anywhere about installing it along the rake. It's another thing when the product IKO makes as a starter course for their own shingles also recommends installing it along the rake.

    I just talked with a few roofing buddies and some do install along the rake (and all of them for aesthetic reasons) while some don't. I talked to one GC who only uses starter strip along the rake - no drip edge. Hmmm... I wonder if *that* practice is defensible.


  55. #55
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Quote Originally Posted by Corn Walker View Post
    While in general that is true, that is not true of this specific case because we do have installation instructions "on page so and so." At that point the opposing counsels can piss over whether or not the fact that GAF or IKO or whoever else makes a product and recommends installing it along the rake are thereby warranting it for a specific purpose.
    Except that Plaintiff's counsel would ask: Please provide the court with a copy of the GAF engineer's letter which modifies the installation instructions and refers to those additional instructions on a document which even by the manufacturer calls "Sell Sheet" for "selling" those strips."

    Would you be able to produce that letter?

    If you contacted GAF and they issued an addendum to the manufacturer's installation instructions and changed all future installation instructions to include the new information, then you would have a copy of that engineer's letter.

    A "Sell Sheet" for ways to sell something to be used to generate business is not going to cut it.

    Would the GAF letter be easy to get? Probably. And then you would have the manufacturer ON RECORD as having modified THEIR installation instructions to include those starter strips up the rakes, and THEN it would hold water (in court, not as in leak).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  56. #56
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    The GAF sheet may be a sell sheet, but the IKO link I provided is an "installation instructions" sheet. Any problems with that?


  57. #57
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Jerry

    Thats fine and dandy but there is not compelling information assisting you and your attorney in what you are trying to sell. You are basing your arguement on an assumption that a starter strip is wrong, and affects the performance and functionality of the shingles/roof but your arguement goes no where its baseless.


  58. #58
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    You are basing your arguement on an assumption that a starter strip is wrong, and affects the performance and functionality of the shingles/roof but your arguement goes no where its baseless.

    Raymond,

    Quite incorrect.

    You are now sounding like what's-his-name ...

    I am basing my argument on the fact that it was NOT DONE as specified in the manufacturer's installation installation instructions.

    Whether or not it it affects the performance or functionality of the system.

    Like what's-his-name you really need to read what is written, not what you think you want it to say.

    What is written is that it is wrong BECAUSE *it does not meet* the installation instructions.

    In that first post I note that the water would run laterally - it will, just like when a roof deck has dips in it, and it does leak, *I* have seen it.

    But ... It is wrong BECAUSE *it does not meet* the installation instructions.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  59. #59
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Jerry

    Did it ever occur to you that you could be wrong? Did it ever occur to you that you are not making yourself clear? Its clear to me that others are having a hard time comprehending what you are trying to impart.

    It doesn't matter whether it meets installation instructions unless you are trying to say that the installation will void the shingle warranty?


  60. #60
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Sometimes I read this board and I can't shake that feeling that someone is wrong on the internet. Then I remember it's just the internet and I can sleep.


  61. #61
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    (because I think my questions are better than yours).
    CW: Yes, and you are full of questions; just no answers.

    Q: Are starter strips recommended by the shingle manufactures?
    A: Yes, most shingle manufacturers recommend the use of starter strips.
    CW: Agreed except that I would make that all and not most.

    Q: Are starter strips recommended by the shingle manufacturer to be installed at the rake?
    A: Yes, in at least two cases the shingle manufacturers provide a written recommendation to install starter strips at the rake for appearance and wind performance reasons.
    CW: I have covered this ground already. Your argument is flat.

    Q: Are the recommendation for starter strips to be installed at the rake written in the shingle installation instructions?
    A: None have been found so far.
    CW: And, I believe, you will not find any. That is all my original statement indicated.

    I think you know this already but you just like taking a piss on these boards. To each his own I presume.
    CW: What I am after is having HIs - to include myself - state facts and not personal preferences, industry mythology, or just plain BS.


  62. #62
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    In order to qualify for Elk's free 7-year "Full System Warranty," your installed roof must include each of the Elk products 1- 5 below. Note: RidgeCrest® (vented) qualifies as ridge vents and hip & ridge shingles.
    Elk Building Products, Inc. Manufacturer of roofing, composite decking, railing building material.

    Starter course
    http://www.guardianbp.com/docs%5Croo...strip_spec.pdf

    Last edited by Raymond Wand; 08-08-2009 at 06:03 AM.

  63. #63
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs


  64. #64
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    AD

    In your opinion!.

    In order to qualify for Elk's free 7-year "Full System Warranty," your installed roof must include each of the Elk products 1- 5 below. Note: RidgeCrest® (vented) qualifies as ridge vents and hip & ridge shingles.


  65. #65
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Starter Course for Asphalt Roofs

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    AD

    In your opinion!.

    In order to qualify for Elk's free 7-year "Full System Warranty," your installed roof must include each of the Elk products 1- 5 below. Note: RidgeCrest® (vented) qualifies as ridge vents and hip & ridge shingles.
    RW: OK then, but only Elk meat.


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