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  1. #1
    Johnny Gorden's Avatar
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    Default Cosmetic or Defect

    I have attached a photo of a roof on a brand new never been lived in home. I see this in the Dallas area quite often and would like to get some feedback and opinions. What would you call it, simply cosmetic or a defect?

    In my opinion, the decking got wet prior to roofing and the ends of the decking have swollen. The roof is performing its intended function of moving water off the roof without leaking. At the early stage it appears this is simply cosmetic, but my concearn is 5-10 years from now after several very hot summers. What is the condition of the raised shingles at that point, they could begin to crack, be subject to damage from wind, etc..

    What call would you make? I'm not looking for the "call a roofer for further evalutaions", I get that. I want your opinion on weather or not it is cosmetic or a defect.

    Thanks in advance for your feedback. I really enjoy this site and this is my first post.

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  2. #2
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Gorden View Post
    I have attached a photo of a roof on a brand new never been lived in home. I see this in the Dallas area quite often and would like to get some feedback and opinions. What would you call it, simply cosmetic or a defect?

    In my opinion, the decking got wet prior to roofing and the ends of the decking have swollen. The roof is performing its intended function of moving water off the roof without leaking. At the early stage it appears this is simply cosmetic, but my concearn is 5-10 years from now after several very hot summers. What is the condition of the raised shingles at that point, they could begin to crack, be subject to damage from wind, etc..

    What call would you make? I'm not looking for the "call a roofer for further evalutaions", I get that. I want your opinion on weather or not it is cosmetic or a defect.

    Thanks in advance for your feedback. I really enjoy this site and this is my first post.
    JG: From: Homeowners FAQs | NRCA National Roofing Contractors Association

    Q. Only the underlayment has been installed on my roof and it rained last night. Now, the underlayment is wrinkled. Does it have to be replaced?

    A. If the wrinkling isn't severe enough to affect the shingle installation (i.e., the wrinkling won't telegraph through the shingles and they won't appear buckled or wavy once installed), the underlayment probably can remain in place. The effects of wrinkling also will be minimized by using heavier weight shingles.

    Wrinkled underlayment causes water in contact with it to move horizontally instead of vertically. So then, this is not just a cosmetic issue, but rather a matter of function. I would recommend replacement of the roof.


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    I do not see horizontal lines in the roofing, only vertical. Is it more likely the sheathing was installed in cold weather with no gap at the ends and clips installed at the horizontal joints?


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    I do not see horizontal lines in the roofing, only vertical. Is it more likely the sheathing was installed in cold weather with no gap at the ends and clips installed at the horizontal joints?
    VH: Could be. I would still recommend roof replacement.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    As VH says, this is from not leaving a space at the ends of the plywood, cusing the decking to expand and make dips/humps in the decking.

    Replace the roof! Don't know about that. It wasn't installed correctly but to replace the roof???


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle View Post
    As VH says, this is from not leaving a space at the ends of the plywood, cusing the decking to expand and make dips/humps in the decking.

    Replace the roof! Don't know about that. It wasn't installed correctly but to replace the roof???
    WC: OK then, how would you fix this without a total roof replacement?


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    I didn't say fix it.

    Is this actually hurting anything?

    Is it going to put someones life in danger?

    It's not right but it's not hurting anything.


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Is this actually hurting anything?
    WC: Yes, the appearance of the house.

    Is it going to put someones life in danger?
    WC: It would put the builder's life in danger, were it my house.

    It's not right but it's not hurting anything.
    WC: How about the resale value?


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Or shingle (roof) warranties?

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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    "OK then, how would you fix this without a total roof replacement?"

    A sack full of wallet stuffers can fix a lot of things, and those it cant fix, don't look as bad as they did.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    With the heat down there and the Texas sun, I would expect to see those shingles on the vertical rasied ridges start to crack and deteriorate before the rest of the shingles on the flat-lying areas of the roof. I see that happen up here in PA where it's not nearly as hot year round. Yes, I'd definitely say it's wrong. Plus, if the shingles go bad within their manufacturer warranty period, the warranty may be voided if the roof is deemed to not have been installed properly.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Quote Originally Posted by Jess Alvarez View Post
    Or shingle (roof) warranties?
    JA: Yep, this installation voids it.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    With the heat down there and the Texas sun, I would expect to see those shingles on the vertical rasied ridges start to crack and deteriorate before the rest of the shingles on the flat-lying areas of the roof. I see that happen up here in PA where it's not nearly as hot year round. Yes, I'd definitely say it's wrong. Plus, if the shingles go bad within their manufacturer warranty period, the warranty may be voided if the roof is deemed to not have been installed properly.
    NO: Yep, this is so. Additionally, on the Gulf Coast of Texas, where all roofs have to be certified by the State, you would not get a certificate and the house would not be insurable.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    I run into some from time to time that have a raised end or 2 and explain to the buyers what is going on and mark it as deficient and in need of repair.

    I think I might have to (sigh ) side with Aaron on this one. That is one of the worse roofs I have seen with the raised ends everywhere and I do not believe it is the angle but it certainly looks like the strongest rise I have seen in a while. If it is a new home the builder has to tear the roof off and start over. Simply unacceptable.

    If it is an existing home...good luck to the buyers of getting new decking and shingles.

    Last edited by Ted Menelly; 02-10-2010 at 11:49 AM.

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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    I re-read the OP, with this being a new house, never lived in before, then I would also go back on the builder and have him redo the sheathing "to code". that will take care of the problem.

    Existing home.........I stand on my original statements.


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle View Post
    I re-read the OP, with this being a new house, never lived in before, then I would also go back on the builder and have him redo the sheathing "to code". that will take care of the problem.

    Existing home.........I stand on my original statements.
    WC: Now, we are on the same page . . .


  17. #17
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    Thumbs up Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Great responses so far. I had not thought about the idea of the roof shinge manufacturer warranty being voided because it was installed over damaged or defect underlayment.


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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Gorden View Post
    Great responses so far. I had not thought about the idea of the roof shinge manufacturer warranty being voided because it was installed over damaged or defect underlayment.
    The underlayment is not damaged or defective. The decking was not spaced out properly (did not use "H" clips) and the decking has expanded as others have said.

    Most likely the shingles will still be warranted by the manufacture in the event that they are defective. It is the shingle that the warranty covers and not the installation.

    When I have found this condition and I have found it several times, I report exactly what I found. I then tell my client that the only cure for this is to remove the entire roof, decking and shingles and then have it properly replaced. It is a condition that can not be repaired but only replaced.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
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  19. #19
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    How would lack of h-clips cause vertical ridges? H-clips are only used on horizontal seams. What if this roof decking is tongue and groove?


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    How would lack of h-clips cause vertical ridges? H-clips are only used on horizontal seams.
    That's what I was thinking too.

    What if this roof decking is tongue and groove?
    Not in new construction that I am aware of.

    If you ride through some of the tract built neighborhoods, with the 3 tab shingles, at the right time of day (note the long shadows in the pic), you would be surprised at how many roofs look just like this one.


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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Scott, instead of removing the sheathing, I would think running a saw kerf at each vertical joint would work and be much less expensive.


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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Chris, "H" clips provide the proper spacing between the sheets of decking on the horizontal but not on the vertical. I was not clear, sorry......

    Scott Patterson, ACI
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    I agree with Aaron on this one. I would be recommending that the roofing material be removed and replaced. Those shingles are prone to buckling and cracking.

    Who cares who the expense is passed onto? The builder, the seller or whoever.

    I also suggest you remove the word "cosmetic" from your vocabulary in inspection reports.

    Just my opinion,
    rick


  25. #25
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Scott, instead of removing the sheathing, I would think running a saw kerf at each vertical joint would work and be much less expensive.
    It might work but then the owner would be replacing rafters as well!

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
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  26. #26
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    I also suggest you remove the word "cosmetic" from your vocabulary in inspection reports.
    RH: Agreed. That is a subjective term.


  27. #27
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Remove entire shingle and substrate covering and replace.
    Why exactly would you recommend anything else to your client?
    If that's what it looks like now, it may get worse. Whatever is going on with the plywood will transfer to the shingles.

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  28. #28
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    I thought you just had to report it as "deficient" and leave it up to the client on how they want to handle it. They surely can see it.

    You neednt get into a length dissertation about how it happened and how to fix it.


  29. #29
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Yes you can just write it as 'deficient' and move on.
    Maybe your clients are much smarter than mine but I can tell you the majority of mine wouldn't know what that means. Sure they know the Webster meaning but what's does it mean to them, for them, for their home purchase consideration.
    Information is useless unless the people receiving the info can understand it and use it. Part of what sets a good HI apart from the lousy checkbox guys is that we do explain things to clients so that they understand the implications, cost factors and potential work related to that 'deficient' item.

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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Keller View Post
    Remove entire shingle and substrate covering and replace.
    Why exactly would you recommend anything else to your client?
    If that's what it looks like now, it may get worse. Whatever is going on with the plywood will transfer to the shingles.

    Scott & Markus,

    My thoughts on this are #1 there is more than one way to fix most problems. If we suggest there is only one, we will be answering calls from frightened clients that may not be warranted. #2 not having to replace rafters or trusses is why there is a depth setting on circular saws. #3 if the sheathing is removed there is more likelyhood of damaging trusses that cutting a kerf.


  31. #31
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Thanks Raymond, as I often say, I learn something new here daily.

    I do think it would make a much stronger roof, but around here it is all 7/16 OSB. I can't remember the last time plywood sheathing was installed on a roof.


    BTW, install 40 year laminated shingles and the seams will disappear.


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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Gorden View Post
    In my opinion, the decking got wet prior to roofing and the ends of the decking have swollen.
    Or (as I am thinking it is) the roof sheathing was not "spaced" at the ends are it was required to be, the structural panels expanded, forcing the ends together and causing just what is shown in that photo.

    The roof is performing its intended function of moving water off the roof without leaking.
    "The roof is performing its intended function"???

    There are more "intended functions" than just that. That roof *is not* performing its intended function *even though* it may be keeping water out.

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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    I would just notate the obvious lack of H clips,notate what I see and leave the correction up to the Licensed Roofer.

    When we start telling how to fix things we invite liability.


  34. #34
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    How do you invite liability by explaining to your clients the possible remedies? Most clients want options explained, its part of their due diligence in being informed in my opinion.


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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Elliott View Post
    I would just notate the obvious lack of H clips,notate what I see and leave the correction up to the Licensed Roofer.

    When we start telling how to fix things we invite liability.

    As H clips go onto the horizontal joint, not the vertical joint over the rafters, where is the "obvioius lack of H clips". I don't see any horizontal differentials there.

    I doubt that the presence or absence of H clips has anything to do with what's going on with this roof.

    I'd be recommending not only a fix but a consultation with the shingle manufacturer's rep about the effect of not fixing the problem on the shingle warranty.

    I'd bet the shingle rep would also call for redoing it.

    Every shingle warranty I've looked at voids if the shingle are not properly isntalled. Putting em on a good base is part of proper installation.


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  36. #36
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Quote Originally Posted by Erby Crofutt View Post
    As H clips go onto the horizontal joint, not the vertical joint over the rafters, where is the "obvioius lack of H clips". I don't see any horizontal differentials there.

    I doubt that the presence or absence of H clips has anything to do with what's going on with this roof.

    I'd be recommending not only a fix but a consultation with the shingle manufacturer's rep about the effect of not fixing the problem on the shingle warranty.

    I'd bet the shingle rep would also call for redoing it.

    Every shingle warranty I've looked at voids if the shingle are not properly isntalled. Putting em on a good base is part of proper installation.


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  37. #37
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    For those that do not want to tell the folks that the roof needs to be removed down to the rafters and then properly replaced, you might try this:

    The visible ridges/wrinkles on the roof have been caused by an improperly installed roof decking. Have a qualified roofing contractor make the proper and needed corrections.

    It is not what I would say but it does convey the problems to your client.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
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  38. #38
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    You can explain verbaly what some of the possible cause may be , but unless you have direct roof installer experience or a Roofers License it would be crazy to give them a definite fix.
    You are not there to repair or tell them how to repair is what I am saying.
    Keep doing that and you will get sued eventually.

    We all want to help but you are best to describe what you see and not dictate how the repair should be done IMO.

    In this case we are not there to see the sheathing from inside the attic and we do not know if there is rafter damage or mold.

    Can lack of proper ventilation be a factor,or exhaust vents terminating inside the attic?

    Never ever say do this or that and the rest will be ok.
    That is up to the contractor to writ e off on or they will take your report and the guy will do exactly what you dictate ,leaving you with all the liability.

    Everyone wants to be Like Mike Holmes , but unless you use a sawsall and sledge hammer along with xray specs you will never measure up to that goal.


  39. #39
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    a Roofers License
    BE: Not required or even obtainable in Texas.

    Everyone wants to be Like Mike Holmes
    BE: Most assuredly NOT.


  40. #40
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    BE: Not required or even obtainable in Texas.



    BE: Most assuredly NOT.
    In Illinois they are one of two Licensed trades,with the other being Plumbers.

    Ahh, Just think of all the ladies you could get if you looked like Mike.

    Olden Days alert:::
    He reminds me of an old wrestler from the sixties named Dick the Bruiser or his cousin the Crusher out of Milwaukee.


  41. #41
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Contractors relying on home inspectors report for repairs? Now there is a novel idea! I have had contractors calling me to ask how the repair/fix should be completed.

    AD you fashionista , how do you feel about coveralls?


  42. #42
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Contractors relying on home inspectors report for repairs? Now there is a novel idea! I have had contractors calling me to ask how the repair/fix should be completed.

    AD you fashionista , how do you feel about coveralls?
    I hear over and over how a Contractor will turn to the Inspector and say "OK ,what do you want me to do"
    At that point you are in charge,which is not what you want. Not really ,though it sounds nice


  43. #43
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    AD you fashionista , how do you feel about coveralls?
    RW: That all depends on who's wearing them.


  44. #44
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Ahh, Just think of all the ladies you could get if you looked like Mike.
    BE: He looks a bit like a blue collar version of Sting - without the talent and money. He may impress Canucks, but that surly, pseudo-tough guy look won't even get you a parking place in Dallas. In fact, it might just get you a Tony Lama planted oh so firmly in your ass.

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  45. #45
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    For those that do not want to tell the folks that the roof needs to be removed down to the rafters and then properly replaced, you might try this:

    The visible ridges/wrinkles on the roof have been caused by an improperly installed roof decking. Have a qualified roofing contractor make the proper and needed corrections.

    It is not what I would say but it does convey the problems to your client.

    I said that the other day. Well, something similar. The roof had various types of damages and in short that is what I said. Have a qualified roofing contractor evaluate for cost of repair/replacement.

    Of course what I said was deeper than that but I did not say specifically what part of that damage was from hail/sleet over the years which I left for the roofer to ascertain. Basically I said the roof had substantial enough damage over the entire roof that my opinion was that it was at the end of it life expectancy due to age and damages. To be quite honest I figured that a good portion of it was from light hail/heavy sleets over the years but it really did not matter. Between the rest of the damage it was time to go away. There were no round hail hits just excessive wear and no one could tell what was what for any kind of percentage (many damaged shingles, wind, age, branches, wear, foot traffic etc.)

    That very long story short....get a roofer..evaluate for cost of repair/replacement.

    That was not good enough. "I should have stated that it was heavily hail damaged. I cannot believe you did not say that."

    My answer was. I fulfilled my purpose and reported extensive damages and the client should get a roofer out. Not to mention many pictures of damage.

    Some folks you just cannot please.


  46. #46
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    I'm not in Texas, although I know its hot there alot, depending on where you are. Here in TN, after the roof decking is installed, a layer of hopefully 30 lb. felt paper is then stapled down before the shingles are nailed. could it be that due to the "H" clips being on the horizontal edges and not vertical, that either the decking got wet, or the felt got wet, or both, prior to the roofing being installed, and the humps are the wrinkled felt paper? I've seen that very thing happen several times. The "H" clip theory just isn't working for me. Sorry guys.


  47. #47
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Johnny, you have any attic pictures?


  48. #48
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    To the original posters concern.

    If in fact if most of you that say the sheathing expanded length wise then there has to be a substantial amount of moisture in that attic and not just the normal nominal amount. Sheathing does not grow by itself. Its made from a dead tree that would need something to absorb to grow. I have see this on man y a roof in the past but not near to the point this roof is. I say that it is not so much the installation (but it was wrong) but fact that excessive moisture is getting into the attic no matter what the source and moved to slowly out of the attic. A roof, not just in the summer but also in the winter, gets well hot enough to keep it relatively dry unless there are other factors promoting the retaining of moisture. There are several things in the works in that home that contributed to the situation at hand.

    A home I lived in, in Neptune Beach Florida, that I added a very large addition to had 5/8 plywood on the roof and 2x6 rafters 16 inches on center (I have always hated 2 ft on center and cheap thin OSB). No H clips, no end spacing, never a problem one and had as flat and smooth roof as could be. H clips are for the what ifs as in material choice and what if you do not build and vent and heat and cool the home properly and or seal the interior from the attic space properly.

    Of course I am perfect so you know everything was done properly or at least a great attempt toward perfection


  49. #49
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    OK
    Good comments guys.
    My first thought was H clips.


  50. #50
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    I said that the other day. Well, something similar. The roof had various types of damages and in short that is what I said. Have a qualified roofing contractor evaluate for cost of repair/replacement.

    Of course what I said was deeper than that but I did not say specifically what part of that damage was from hail/sleet over the years which I left for the roofer to ascertain. Basically I said the roof had substantial enough damage over the entire roof that my opinion was that it was at the end of it life expectancy due to age and damages. To be quite honest I figured that a good portion of it was from light hail/heavy sleets over the years but it really did not matter. Between the rest of the damage it was time to go away. There were no round hail hits just excessive wear and no one could tell what was what for any kind of percentage (many damaged shingles, wind, age, branches, wear, foot traffic etc.)

    That very long story short....get a roofer..evaluate for cost of repair/replacement.

    That was not good enough. "I should have stated that it was heavily hail damaged. I cannot believe you did not say that."

    My answer was. I fulfilled my purpose and reported extensive damages and the client should get a roofer out. Not to mention many pictures of damage.

    Some folks you just cannot please.
    Unless you were there to see the hail fall and damage the roof, calling it hail damage is conjecture. How would calling it hail damage as opposed to just damaged make it any different? Damaged is damaged. How it got damaged is nothing more than a guess unless you saw how it happened.

    Ted, I hope you told that person to let the cut under their nose heal.


  51. #51
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    Unless you were there to see the hail fall and damage the roof, calling it hail damage is conjecture. How would calling it hail damage as opposed to just damaged make it any different? Damaged is damaged. How it got damaged is nothing more than a guess unless you saw how it happened.

    Ted, I hope you told that person to let the cut under their nose heal.
    In this case the roofer that followed prompted the come back. The schmuck got a reroof out of it and then still proceeded to tell the realtor what I should have said and what I should have called it. I will make sure any future client involved in a home inspection with me gets a roofer out there other than him.

    The amount of work we put on the market for others is untold. The ass did not even think of the fact that I was the one that got him there by mentioning the damage and extent of. The Realtor saw nothing but what the roofer said. She actually questioned me. Again, if it were not from me then her client (my client) would be holding the bag (as well as me) and that roofer would not have had a roof to do.


  52. #52
    imported_John Smith's Avatar
    imported_John Smith Guest

    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Texas SOPs just say call it deficient. Sure you can verbally tell your clients what you think. But at the end of the day, call it deficient, explain why its deficient and move on.


    Dont go into:
    "The roof appears to be installed on the second Monday of the month by workers under the influence of Corona and Tequila shots the Sunday prior. The wood came from a small East Texas forest section only harvested on the fourth Thursday in April and November. The clips joining the roof sections together may have been made by a company in China possibly associated with Chinese Drywall. The Subpanel in the garage, with the door tested by using a fish weighing scale may have also been a contributor.


  53. #53
    Stacey Van Houtan's Avatar
    Stacey Van Houtan Guest

    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    It looks to be aprox at 8' spacing with a 16" of set at 4'course. This would incicate lack of spacing (nothing to do with h clips) This is typical and tha APA has tech bulltians about this, I was a expert in a case involving this a few years back. The moistue is not gained thur roof leaks as some have said, but when the wood reaches equlibrium moistue content. This should be verified in the attic. If the wood has take a set in its deformation saw cutting may or may not repair the sheating. The bow can be in the panel and may not level out.

    The sidebar on Hail

    YOU CAN tell hail damage for other damage usually. See Haig Engineering books, The are in TX and teach insurance adusters this ability. They have many good classes and publications


  54. #54
    Bert de Haan's Avatar
    Bert de Haan Guest

    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Russell View Post
    I'm not in Texas, although I know its hot there alot, depending on where you are. Here in TN, after the roof decking is installed, a layer of hopefully 30 lb. felt paper is then stapled down before the shingles are nailed. could it be that due to the "H" clips being on the horizontal edges and not vertical, that either the decking got wet, or the felt got wet, or both, prior to the roofing being installed, and the humps are the wrinkled felt paper? I've seen that very thing happen several times. The "H" clip theory just isn't working for me. Sorry guys.
    I have never seen a roof with ridges as bad as this. I have seen roofs where the wrinkled roof felt shows through the shingles. This doesn't look like that. Wrinkles in the felt are not perfectly vertical. They are not as sharp and abrupt as this either.


  55. #55
    Join Date
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    Michigan
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    The obvious here, it's not caused by wet felt paper and H clips would not help in this situation. It may even have them. If the roof had dips or crowns, then H clips are missing. I'm not sure of everyones code... but the IRC and Michigan's MRC does NOT always require H clips. It does however require proper panel spacing.

    I'm not sure this is really even caused by improper spacing. It looks more like swelling, most likely culprit, rain. OSB end panels seem to swell more than long edges. Not sure why? But they do.

    This really is a common problem with OSB. I see many roofs (in Michigan where it's NOT hot all the time) in which the OSB telegraphs through the shingles. EVEN ARCHITECTUAL SHINGLES that have not gotten wet prior to roofing.

    Sheet materials OSB and plywoods are dried to a very low moisture content to glue them, even lower than what the will be after installation. Proper spacing and even acclimation can be important.

    Last edited by Door Guy; 02-14-2010 at 07:00 AM. Reason: sp
    Randy Gordon, construction
    Michigan Building Inspector/Plan Reviewer

  56. #56
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Quote Originally Posted by James Risley View Post
    go to http://www.ewpa.com/Archive/2006/aug/Paper_266.pdf Refer to figure 8 on page 6.
    Great info. Thanks James. After looking back at the pics, I may want to change my first assumption of rain being the culprit. With a hip roof proper ventilation can be difficult sometimes to accomplish.

    Randy Gordon, construction
    Michigan Building Inspector/Plan Reviewer

  57. #57
    Mark Howe's Avatar
    Mark Howe Guest

    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    [QUOTE=Nick Ostrowski;120144]Unless you were there to see the hail fall and damage the roof, calling it hail damage is conjecture. How would calling it hail damage as opposed to just damaged make it any different? Damaged is damaged. How it got damaged is nothing more than a guess unless you saw how it happened.

    Ted, I hope you told that person to let the cut under their nose heal.[/

    I dont know how often you see hail or hail damage in your neck of the woods, but I can determine if the damage was caused by a hailstone when I am standing on the ground in the dark. If you have experience with and knowledge of hail damage, it is anything but conjecture. I dont have to watch a framer cut a rafter short to know that the rafter was cut short.

    The difference it makes is in being accurate. If the damage was caused by a falling pine cone, I would recommend a certain course of action (remove the tree and fix the roof). IMO, "damage is damage" is not adequate. The cause and nature of the damage determine the proper course of action. My clients invariably want to know what course of action to take.


  58. #58
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    [quote=Mark Howe;120490]
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    Unless you were there to see the hail fall and damage the roof, calling it hail damage is conjecture. How would calling it hail damage as opposed to just damaged make it any different? Damaged is damaged. How it got damaged is nothing more than a guess unless you saw how it happened.

    Ted, I hope you told that person to let the cut under their nose heal.[/

    I dont know how often you see hail or hail damage in your neck of the woods, but I can determine if the damage was caused by a hailstone when I am standing on the ground in the dark. If you have experience with and knowledge of hail damage, it is anything but conjecture. I dont have to watch a framer cut a rafter short to know that the rafter was cut short.

    The difference it makes is in being accurate. If the damage was caused by a falling pine cone, I would recommend a certain course of action (remove the tree and fix the roof). IMO, "damage is damage" is not adequate. The cause and nature of the damage determine the proper course of action. My clients invariably want to know what course of action to take.

    You are kidding with your comments right.

    Like I said there were multiple types of damage. Albeit there was hail damage and it may have been even the heavier of the lot I called it all out as multiple damage and a roofer should evaluate for repairs.

    Experience? I am quite sure I have more experience than a good lot of the roofers anywhere. Building remodeling and inspecting for 35 years and endless, countless continuing end on just roofing alone.

    What the heck difference does it make. I made the call off damage. Listed the damage. Called for a roofer to evaluate for pricing. Job done. Roofer got there. Roof needs replacing.

    Question is??????? Cannot get anymore accurate than that. Client was concidered and taken care of. Job done. Is that not our job.

    And yes....the roofer...what a schmuck. He came (because of my call) and got a roofing job. The Realtor?????? client was taken care of due to my call.

    Like I said. Question is ???????


  59. #59
    Stacey Van Houtan's Avatar
    Stacey Van Houtan Guest

    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    TR, experence does not always equal expert. I don't agree that I can sell hail damage in the dark, There are some times on a roof where there is a rash, (I assume you know what this is) and when on a older roof that has weathered the looks like hail damge from small dense hailstorm

    As to why you should report hail damage vs mechanical damage. A tree or any other mechanical damage may not be covered by insurance. Hail may be covered by insurance.

    I recently inspected a home with hail damage. As i do on older and hail damaged roof, I suggested that they verify insurance ability. The buyer had the same Ins. co. as the seller and had claimed and received a totoal roof replacement, but this was not on the discolusere. The buyer walked . Now, I this had been discovered after closing, as sometimes happens, who do you think the buyer would blame if i had just said there was damage on the roof. Many times the Ins. co will insured the home and give a binder and then sends out a adjuster, after closeing to determine if any insurability conditions exist. The roof is a major system that the adjuster reviews.


  60. #60
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Quote Originally Posted by Stacey Van Houtan View Post
    TR, experence does not always equal expert. I don't agree that I can sell hail damage in the dark, There are some times on a roof where there is a rash, (I assume you know what this is) and when on a older roof that has weathered the looks like hail damge from small dense hailstorm

    As to why you should report hail damage vs mechanical damage. A tree or any other mechanical damage may not be covered by insurance. Hail may be covered by insurance.

    I recently inspected a home with hail damage. As i do on older and hail damaged roof, I suggested that they verify insurance ability. The buyer had the same Ins. co. as the seller and had claimed and received a totoal roof replacement, but this was not on the discolusere. The buyer walked . Now, I this had been discovered after closing, as sometimes happens, who do you think the buyer would blame if i had just said there was damage on the roof. Many times the Ins. co will insured the home and give a binder and then sends out a adjuster, after closeing to determine if any insurability conditions exist. The roof is a major system that the adjuster reviews.

    Exactly.....Have roofer evaluate. Once the roofers puts his 2 cents in and then an adjuster for the insurance company comes out, the roof may or may not get covered.

    If any buyer only follows my advise sometime down the road after advising them to take the next step for cost of repairs and or replacement.....Oh well...not my problem anymore.

    Who do you think would be paying for it if they did not heed my advise and get a price for repairs/replacement due to this damage.......Well, the buyer of course...who else. Like I said. Been there and done that with all the clients. I inspect and they follow thru before closing to get total cost of all repairs.

    If a buyers agent gets a roofer which they always do and the roofer says xxxxxxxxx then unless the seller just falls for that one then he will be a smart man to get a price from his roofer or insurance company. That is just the way of things. All repairs need a quote directly after my inspection......................That is why I am there. Not for later down the road unless they choose that route. The idea is if items of concern are found then they can either barter to get items fixed, get a break on the price or say the heck with it. Oh yes...did I mention the pictures that came intermixed with the report that shows obvious heavy damage in and of themselves and there should be a roofer to eval for price?

    I can go round and round all day. It still comes out the same. Either heed my concerns in the report and take care of them now (seller fix them), get a break off the price (have to get the next folks in line for a price for that work) or just shrug it all off and no matter what the price...eat it. It's all up to them.


    Did you read my post....listed multiple concerns?


    A little ad on here. While I was typing this the Realtor for this home must have rethought her position on the matter. I just got another inspection thru her. Not to mention it is from the same group that is coming her from Jersey. Musta done something right.

    Last edited by Ted Menelly; 02-14-2010 at 05:28 PM.

  61. #61
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    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Ted, you did good. I've read somewhere that the test for hail damage is to bang the shingles with a ballpeen hammer and see if it looks the same. Yep, we'll let the roofer do that.

    Johnny Gorden, it is a defect. Check the pdf mentioned above http://www.ewpa.com/Archive/2006/aug/Paper_266.pdf
    The OSB is water-soaked. Cutting kerfs along the seams won't drive the water out.
    It may have been a defective batch of sheathing. It is not going to get better. The buyer should get a completely new roof or he should walk.

    Why does OSB expand like that? I think water can get in between the little chips throughout, and the soft portions of the chips are criss-crossed, whereas with plywood, the outer layers of veneer will expand a bit in width but not in length. The hard grain doesn't absorb moisture, the soft grain is more absorbent.


  62. #62
    Ken Bates's Avatar
    Ken Bates Guest

    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    The 80 to 100 year old houses in my area (Boston) have survived many strong hurricanes with little or no damage (except some beachfront properties.)

    When Iím in an attic with exposed decking, I like to point out the virtues of solid, old growth wood versus the use of the various types of wood shavings bonded together with adhesives.

    I tell my client that for siding and roof decking, properly installed 4x8 panels are structurally superior to wood boards but they have some inherent deficiencies.
    In addition to delamination of plywood there is the proclivity of the other glued stuff for irreversible swelling and fostering mold growth. I like to point out the fact that good old growth wood (not todayís tree farm junk) can get wet and return to its original size and dimension most of the time. (I.e., unlike the glued stuff, it rarely remains deformed after swelling as does the glued stuff.)

    I enjoyed the many posts above, especially having been made without the advantage of actually being in this house.

    If I were in this house I would certainly be using a few of my moisture meters and my hygrometer.

    We all agree that a hip roof presents ventilation problems.

    I think that during and after the construction phase a significant amount of humid air rose to the attic from the basement (or slab) concrete and caused the irreversible swelling.
    I Have seen the vapor from basement floors and foundation walls (slabs are very rare in my area) warp the first level subfloors and cause associated damage to the finish floors. (smart builders temporarily install plastic retarders to bsmt joists)


  63. #63
    Steve Karr's Avatar
    Steve Karr Guest

    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    After all of the theorizing and banter, I think the conclusion is "Defect".


  64. #64
    Brian Johnson's Avatar
    Brian Johnson Guest

    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    Couple of things

    1) Would this look any different or would we be talking about it, if pic was taken at high noon instead of 6pm?
    I see the "flashlight on the sheetrock wall" effect here.

    2) Would this look any different or would we be talking about it if they used architechural style shingles?
    Probably not I say

    As far as the warranty for the shingles, I have looked into this issue for other inspections and found out from GAF and other manufactures that the warranty is sometimes pro-rated/lessened and not voided all together.

    Just saying

    It still is defective in my opinion.

    Would not want to be taken to court on this one so I would call it out!


  65. #65
    Ken McConnell's Avatar
    Ken McConnell Guest

    Default Re: Cosmetic or Defect

    I believe this is a defect for sure, being a newly built home. I as and inspector would write it up as defective and provide comments as to possible problems that could arise over time and then recommend them to contact a professional roofing contractor or company. Let them provide the client with information on the roofing defect and the proper repair recommendation.
    If this issue ended up in a legal court, you as and inspector have provide the client with knowledge of the defect and recommended a professional roofing consultant for their expertise. The inspector then has represented his client in the best professional manner.
    If I was the contractor on this job I would have had the roofing crew back in a heart beat to make the necessary repair or replacement. At their expense, time & materials.
    Don't think any of us would accept this in a new car's roof looking the picture of the roofs defect.

    Just my thoughts on the matter.
    Ken McConnell
    Quality Home & Building Inspection Consultants


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