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Thread: Roofing Valley

  1. #1
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    Default Roofing Valley

    Does this valley look like this has been shingled properly? This was done four years ago and there is no internal leaks. Trying to give the seller the heads up since this was a prelisting inspection.

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  2. #2
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    Quote Originally Posted by JIM MURPHY View Post
    Does this valley look like this has been shingled properly? This was done four years ago and there is no internal leaks. Trying to give the seller the heads up since this was a prelisting inspection.

    JM: Sloppy woven valley. I would call for a manufacturer's field rep to inspect it and certify their warranty given this installation. Direct you clients to:

    How to Do Roofing Valleys


  3. #3
    chris mcintyre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    Jim, does the roof change pitches on the right side? From the picture it appears to change pitches at about the same place the shingles in the valley change.
    If it does then this could explain the odd valley weave.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    Quote Originally Posted by JIM MURPHY View Post
    Does this valley look like this has been shingled properly?

    Not even close to being proper.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  5. #5
    Stacey Van Houtan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    No brands of laminated shingles allow a laced valley, I is wrong


  6. #6
    chris mcintyre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    Quote Originally Posted by Stacey Van Houtan View Post
    No brands of laminated shingles allow a laced valley,
    WHAT!

    I is wrong
    I hope you is wrong too, because if you are right, there are hundreds if not thousands of houses roofed wrong, just in this county.


  7. #7
    chris mcintyre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    I found that it depends on the particular shingle, some do, some don't, even within the same manufacture.

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  8. #8
    Stacey Van Houtan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    It is wrong.

    Show me a installation book that says different and i will change my opinion


  9. #9
    Frank Suchodolski's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    The correct answer is no, it is not proprely done. Some manufactures do allow woven valleys with their laminated shingles but I would not recommend it, but then I would recommend metal "W" profile valleys in most cases, closed cut valleys are preferable in some situations. But even improperly installed woven valleys like this may only be aesthetically challenged, if the keyways are kept a minimum of 6" out of the valley center (hard to ascetain on this one what could be considered a center line) and a #30 felt underlay is installed underneath.

    Frank Suchodolski, RRO


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    Quote Originally Posted by Stacey Van Houtan View Post
    It is wrong.

    Show me a installation book that says different and i will change my opinion
    IKO Installation Guide

    Note on page two that while they "recommend" an open metal valley, they explicitly say "CLOSED CUT OR WOVEN VALLEYS ARE ALSO ACCEPTABLE"

    See pages 6-11 here for their instructions on how to lay a woven valley.

    Note, however, that IKO do not warrant the shingles laid in the valley, whether closed cut or woven.

    Last edited by Corn Walker; 02-12-2010 at 04:29 AM. Reason: premature posting

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    Coming from our area, that has nothing but woven valleys, since I have been here (83) I haven't seen a problem with this type of install if done correctly. Can't judge by that picture. The shingles will drift at the cross in the center of the valley if there is two different pitch planes. If that occurs you double up the low side at intervals of drifting which depicts the picture presented.
    I do disagree with the installation instructions on the woven part of leaving the keyways in to close to the center point of the valley. I have seen many homes build up debris under the tabs. It is best to tab the shingles and dutch lap them so you have no keys within 6" of each side of center point. You should also bring the overlap of each side up to the top of the opposing side when weaving.

    Mike Schulz License 393
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  12. #12
    Stacey Van Houtan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    These look like a 3 tab shingle not a laminated shingle. And if the warranty is void, from my persecetive it is a reportabe as a incorrect installation.

    As any experienced roofer and he will tell you woven valleys are doomed for early failure.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Schulz View Post
    Coming from our area, that has nothing but woven valleys, since I have been here (83) I haven't seen a problem with this type of install if done correctly. Can't judge by that picture. The shingles will drift at the cross in the center of the valley if there is two different pitch planes. If that occurs you double up the low side at intervals of drifting which depicts the picture presented.
    Well said, I agree 100%

    Quote Originally Posted by Stacey Van Houtan View Post
    These look like a 3 tab shingle not a laminated shingle.
    The screen capture I posted is most definitely laminated shingles, Owens Corning Oakridge 30 to be exact, this was one of several I found that did allow for a woven valley, and in fairness I did find some that did not allow the woven valley.

    As any experienced roofer and he will tell you woven valleys are doomed for early failure.
    I have and this is not the consensus of the roofers I talked to.

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  14. #14
    Stacey Van Houtan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    This sounds like a local roofer habit. 30 year ago i saw many laced vallys and installed many my self. The winddriven index aroud here is about 5 this and the fact that the shingles at the valley wear faster increase the chance of leaks.


  15. #15
    Frank Suchodolski's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    The only reason they would be doomed to fail is when the shingles do not lay flat on the sheeting below, bridging the valley, and then you need someone to do a little maintenance work and step into the valley to damage the shingles. This is why it is not recommended. If it is installed properly and people don't step into the valley center they will last as long as a closed cut valley (the problem happens with closed cut valleys too but not as bad). If all roofers were good and did everything properly...LOL, I can't even type that with a straight face.

    Frank Suchodolski, RRO


  16. #16
    Stacey Van Houtan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    The marthon is a 3 tab shingle as i said NO ONE allows a laminated shingle to be intalled in a woven valley You still have to show me


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    Do a little research, laminate shingles "ARE" allowed to be woven. Just look at the thumbnail couple post up.

    Mike Schulz License 393
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    Quote Originally Posted by Stacey Van Houtan View Post
    .... as i said NO ONE allows a laminated shingle to be intalled in a woven valley You still have to show me
    WTF , apparently I'm on Stacey's ignore list. Oh well.


  19. #19
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    Quote Originally Posted by Stacey Van Houtan View Post
    The marthon is a 3 tab shingle as i said NO ONE allows a laminated shingle to be intalled in a woven valley You still have to show me
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Schulz View Post
    Do a little research, laminate shingles "ARE" allowed to be woven. Just look at the thumbnail couple post up.
    Quote Originally Posted by chris mcintyre View Post
    WTF , apparently I'm on Stacey's ignore list. Oh well.
    Chris,

    Not to worry, Houtan is in his own 'if he said it, it must be true' world and he is unable to consider that actual facts should be allowed to influence what he thinks.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  20. #20
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    Gentelmen

    The thumbnail is a Closed cut Valley not a woven valley I am trying to help and not pick on anyone (although peck does make a fine target ) Jerry you want correct lanaguage then show me you understand roofing. There a several types of valleys See attached
    Mabe the misunderstaning is what we are calling these valleys there are 3 basic type of vallys in use today

    the open valleys which has exposed matal flashing, (this come it 2 types the standard and CA style.)

    The closed cut valley (which has been called a half woven valley which also can be standard or CA style) but not called a half woven valley in any information from the makers of shingles that i am aware of. Most call it a cut valley

    And a closed full woven valley, The full woven valley which most areas of the US call a woven or laced valley (leaving out the full) is approved only for 3-tab shingles the other 2 for laminated shingles


  21. #21
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

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  22. #22
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    Quote Originally Posted by Stacey Van Houtan View Post
    Mabe the misunderstaning is what we are calling these valleys there are 3 basic type of vallys in use today
    I suspect there is no misunderstanding regarding vally types: "open" has always meant, well, "open" with the valley metal showing; "cut" has always meant, well, "cut" shingles along the valley, or the modern California version of it with shingles laid lengthwise up the valley; and "woven" has always meant, well, what else but that the two sides were "woven" together - and where "cut" and "woven" were "types" of "closed" valleys.

    Now, when you get into metal, tile, slate, and some other roof coverings there are additional valley types with preformed valley metal in which "closed" valley is one with one preformed center water diverter with the roofing material being cut to abut that single preformed metal, and with "open" valley being one in which the preformed valley metal has two water diverters with a space between them and with the roofing material abutting the two outside edges of the two water diverters - i.e., the center between the two diverters is "open".

    Typically, those preformed valley metal flashings will also have returns along the edge of the valley metal where the edge is turned up and bent back over itself slightly to form a dam to prevent/reduce water flowing off the sides of the valley metal, those returns are also known as "slaters edges".

    The reason why a properly installed "woven" valley is no more susceptible to leaking than any other valley is that there is a back up flashing behind it to drain any and all water which gets through down the valley. In the olden days this flashing was always metal, whereas nowadays this flashing is seldom metal, meaning it is some type of material, and that material is susceptible to tearing, which means leaking.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  23. #23
    chris mcintyre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    Quote Originally Posted by Stacey Van Houtan View Post
    You still have to show me
    Quote Originally Posted by Stacey Van Houtan View Post
    The thumbnail is a Closed cut Valley not a woven valley...
    I guess you are from the "show me (a picture) state".

    ...because if you look to the left of the picture:

    (D) A metal valley is an acceptable alternative. A woven valley is also acceptable for Oakridge Pro 30.


  24. #24
    Stacey Van Houtan's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Re: Roofing Valley

    Chris, I do now see your thumbnail that allows a woven valley on the OC laminated product. I looked quickly earler and assumed is was mis- information as was the Marthon info. At this point i am asuming that OC has change their install methond (which way as yet to be determined) or they made a mitsake.
    See attached: No mention of woven valley. These are dated 07 and there is no mention of a woven valley. Your thumbnail lacks a date, i assume it is part of larger document. Does it have a date. I would be very intrested since i just taught roofing today, and as i have said all the info i have, other than the thumbnail you provided does not show woven valleys approved for laminated shingles.

    Peck you have not earned a reply

    Attached Files Attached Files

  25. #25
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Chris,

    Not to worry, Houtan is in his own 'if he said it, it must be true' world and he is unable to consider that actual facts should be allowed to influence what he thinks.
    JP: Well said.


  26. #26
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    Laminated shingles have always been able to be woven until you get in the higher grade shingles. When you get in the 30+ range the shingles are much thicker and harder to bend so metal valleys are best suited for it. If you try and push these thick shingles down and they are cold, in a valley, they crack or the ply's start coming apart. Also the thicker shingles after weaving would be so thick at the center of the valley it would look like hell.

    Again never see a leak in a woven valley unless it was installer error but that can be for any installation you choose.

    Mike Schulz License 393
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  27. #27
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    Quote Originally Posted by Stacey Van Houtan View Post
    And a closed full woven valley, The full woven valley which most areas of the US call a woven or laced valley (leaving out the full) is approved only for 3-tab shingles the other 2 for laminated shingles
    See page 4 of the current (as of 11/09) Installation Instructions for IKO's fiberglass laminated shingles wherein they state, once again, that "CLOSED CUT OR WOVEN VALLEYS ARE ALSO ACCEPTABLE."

    The reasons IKO give for not warranting shingles placed in the valley is because of lower pitch (e.g. the pitch of the valley where two 4/12 roof planes intersect is only 2.8/12) and greater volume of runoff in the valley compared to the adjacent planes. I haven't found mention of the reason being because of greater chance of leaks.

    Show me a installation book that says different and i will change my opinion
    Should I consider your opinion changed, then?


  28. #28
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    Quote Originally Posted by Stacey Van Houtan View Post
    No brands of laminated shingles allow a laced valley, I is wrong
    SVH: You is damned sure wrong.


  29. #29
    chris mcintyre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    Stacey,
    Here is the link and the pdf (sometimes one or the other will not work for me). This is a different shingle than the one the thumbnail is from, but it also allows a woven valley, and it is dated 2007.

    http://roofing.owenscorning.com/docs...ge_install.pdf

    Attached Files Attached Files

  30. #30
    Stacey Van Houtan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    So it appears to me that for laminated shingles GAF has never allowed a woven valley and the call it the the weakest vally, OC has a installation instructions that do and another dosent allow, with the same date, Certinteed does not allow it and IKO would allow it but THEN not provide a warranty for that installation.


    If i have to go to depositions to try to defend a leaking woven valley on laminated shingles, (reguardless of brand, since I almost always do not know the brand) I know my report will say it appers to not be a accepted instillation method.

    Those who disagree, good luck


  31. #31
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    Quote Originally Posted by Stacey Van Houtan View Post
    I know my report will say it appers to not be a accepted instillation method.

    And you will be shot down on cross and then dismissed out-of-hand by the expert for the other side who acknowledges that it is, indeed, an accepted and approved practice.

    Still ignoring facts as the facts do not fit what you think is right ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    www.AskCodeMan.com

  32. #32
    Stacey Van Houtan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    Thanks for the pdf chris, I am going to call the oc rep and see what he says about the instructions not agreeing on the same shingle and with the same date.

    This seems to be the only conflict about this issue.


  33. #33
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roofing Valley

    SVH: You are hanging by the merest ephemeral concept of a thread in this argument, but only in your own mind.

    This seems to be the only conflict about this issue.



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