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  1. #1
    blues capture's Avatar
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    Default Help...experts...

    I just bought a house which had roof water damage one year ago. And the previous owner showed us the paperwork of fixing. On the paper it shows the problem was caused by wind, and the tiles and felts are replaced.

    But my inspector still pointed out some issues about the roof. So I am not sure these issues need to be taken care. We are in CA and we haven't got any rain since we moved in.

    Here are the issues the inspector pointed out:

    There were improper/inadequate roof tile and flashing conditions, observed at the locations that includes, but is not limited to: openings/voids in the front ‘ridge cap’ tiles from lack of proper ‘mortar weather blocking’, at the left front roof section above the living room, and along the front bedroom ‘head walls’; loose ‘cut’ tiles and obstructed metal ‘valley’ flashing, at the visible lower front roof section over the first level bedroom, and the visible top rear roof ‘valley’ over the second level left rear bedroom; and inadequate installation of the ‘pan’ or ‘channel’ flashing, with evidence of excessive ‘caulking’ repairs at the lower left front roof ‘valley’ above the first level bedroom; which should be repaired to prevent leaks.




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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Help...experts...

    If your inspector called them out after the roof had supposedly been fixed, I would assume they are still a problem. Did you get any documentation from the seller at closing that the items your inspector found have been repaired?

    If not, your probably going to have some additional leaks once the rains show up.

    rick


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Help...experts...

    Looks like a System 1 roof, in which case the flashings should be on top of the tiles, except along the side walls (which can be on top or under as long as the flashing have turned up 'slater's edges' to stop water from flowing under the tile) and the valleys (which are either closed valleys as shown or open valleys with two performed diverters instead of just the one, but both need the turned up slater's edges).

    All flashings on top of the tiles are supposed to conform to the shape of the tile, which is one reason the flashing are made of lead.

    From your photos, it looks like your inspector was right to point out various things, and you may very well have future leaks, and maybe not from repaired areas.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Help...experts...

    Thanks for your answer.
    I don't see any of the item is mentioned on the repaire paper. It only mentioned they replaced two "crickets" (which I am not sure what it is). And they put 2 layers of ASTM felt, and reinstalled new metal tile pans, and all the tile.

    One thing i am not sure is in the picture 3, there is a gap between the tiles and the wall. Where can the water go from there?

    Another thing is that: during the time the previous owner showed us the house, it was heavy rain season. And we didn't see any problem. And if there was leak, they shouldn't be able to show buys every a couple of days.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Help...experts...

    Quote Originally Posted by blues capture View Post
    It only mentioned they replaced two "crickets" (which I am not sure what it is).
    One type of cricket (which is not shown) would be in Photo 3 where the roof goes back into that corner, if there was a small triangular section of roof installed such that the inside corner ('back in the corner' in photo 3) which was higher, then sloped down so the edge met the other corner and uphill to create an angle down (see attached drawing), this sheds water down and away from the end wall at the bottom.

    One thing i am not sure is in the picture 3, there is a gap between the tiles and the wall. Where can the water go from there?
    That is not a problem in and of itself, but it could very well allow more water at that flashing than what can be handled and direct over to and around the corner. Additionally, the water could build up to a higher level than the flashing behind the counter flashing, overflowing the flashing and leaking inside.

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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Help...experts...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    All flashings on top of the tiles are supposed to conform to the shape of the tile, which is one reason the flashing are made of lead.
    We conform to the attached PDF head wall flashing installation system diagram in our area including Note: #7 concerning the use of galvanized metal for flashing. Note at bottom of page - "Drawing shown depicts the application of all tile profiles." Low, medium and high profile. #5 in the OP photo should be correct if installed correctly in unseen places.

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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Help...experts...

    Thank you very much for your very detailed answers.

    In these 5 pictures, which one has the most serious issue? And how can it be fixed? And will it cost much? Thanks!

    The previous owner was showing the house during the rainning season during Feb this year (the water damage happened 1 yr ago). So I guess I can still take the risk of not doing anything for it?


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Help...experts...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Knauff View Post
    We conform to the attached PDF head wall flashing installation system diagram in our area including Note: #7 concerning the use of galvanized metal for flashing. Note at bottom of page - "Drawing shown depicts the application of all tile profiles." Low, medium and high profile. #5 in the OP photo should be correct if installed correctly in unseen places.

    Bob,

    Did you also read the part in the drawing where it says "Weather Blocking For Profiled Tile" and points to the bottom of the flashing and the top of the tile?

    If you are using profile tile you need to either: a) conform the flashing to the profile of the tile (such as what can be done with lead flashings); b) point the space between the straight flashing and the profiled tile up with weather blocking, i.e., with mortar.

    EITHER a) or b) would result in the same protection and would be what I was pointing out, NOT what is shown in that photo.

    So, do you do it as shown in the photo or as shown in the installation page you posted?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Help...experts...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    All flashings on top of the tiles are supposed to conform to the shape of the tile, which is one reason the flashing are made of lead.
    I did indeed read the diagram notations. It doesn't say anything about lead. Lead can be used or concrete or caulk or insulation or any other water proof/resistant material that will prevent driven rain penetration. Both concrete and lead are used around here....UNDER the galvanized. Your original statement leads one to believe that the only flashing material to be used "on top of tiles" is lead. Perhaps that's true in your area due to corrosive salt air?

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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Help...experts...

    Bob,

    You responded to my last post above your, but quoted PART of a post above that, yet seemed to ignore what was in the post you were referring to ... why was that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Knauff View Post
    I did indeed read the diagram notations. It doesn't say anything about lead. Lead can be used or concrete or caulk or insulation or any other water proof/resistant material that will prevent driven rain penetration.
    (bold and underlining are mine just in case you missed it, but I suspect you did not miss it, you just did not want to reply to that question)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    If you are using profile tile you need to either: a) conform the flashing to the profile of the tile (such as what can be done with lead flashings); b) point the space between the straight flashing and the profiled tile up with weather blocking, i.e., with mortar.

    EITHER a) or b) would result in the same protection and would be what I was pointing out, NOT what is shown in that photo.
    I'm not repeating the question because it is apparent you have no intention of answering it, whether that is because of what your answer would be or otherwise is unknown to me. But it really was a simple question based on your simple statement which was either incorrect or incomplete (again, which it is is unknown to me as you did not answer the question).

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Help...experts...

    Hey Blues, One way of finding out if they fixed the problem (besides taking the whole thing apart) is to do a water test. Start at the lowest point and have somebody inside watching for leaks. A telephone or walkie talkie would help. It takes a long time so be patient. Work your way up hill 15-20 min at a time. Once you've confirmed a leak, let it stop leaking then start again the same way to verify.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Help...experts...

    Assuming there is fully functional water-resistant membrane beneath the tile then a 'water-test' or rainfall may not expose any leak through the roof and into the attic or living area(s) below. Any rainwater (or applied water) will flow across and on top of the membrane and run off the roof beneath the tile rather than off it. Usually that water also bypasses any installed gutter, dripping between the gutter and fascia board.

    If you do a water test (or wait for rain) look for water dripping from underneath the tile at the roof edge and droplets of water on the underside of the gutter (if present). That should indicate if the problem has been fixed or not. If you see any then the problem still exists. Over time, rainwater and sun can deplete the membrane, allowing water penetration through the roof deck.

    Did the HI observe any staining or evidence of leaking on the underside of the roof deck from the attic? That should be mentioned somewhere in his report.

    The closed valley issue is another matter. Loose tile and other debris in the valley could also dam run-off, allowing water to spread beyond the valley flashing and underneath the tile. The result is as explained above. Have you own qualified roofing person take a look before the rainy season, you may get better pricing.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Help...experts...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I'm not repeating the question because it is apparent you have no intention of answering it, whether that is because of what your answer would be or otherwise is unknown to me.
    The "question" you refer to is, I assume: "So, do you do it as shown in the photo or as shown in the installation page you posted?"

    I don't know how to answer your question any more precisely. First, "I" don't do construction any more. Thank goodness I don't have to! What I can address is what is required in our area or what I see in the field.

    The system and materials they use here are like what is seen in the original photo and the diagram. Galvanized over (hopefully) mortar or some moisture resistant blocking material to fill the spaces under the galvanized to the top of the tiles.

    However, my response was addressing a sweeping but untrue statement made by you earlier that you seem to be missing or not willing to address. That was, "All flashings on top of the tiles are supposed to conform to the shape of the tile, which is one reason the flashing are made of lead."(bold by me).

    The space under the horizontal flashing shown in the OP #5 pic should indeed have blocking consisting of some type of material that conforms to the contour of the high profile tile but the galvanized piece pictured on top of the tile is correct. This is confirmed by the diagram in the attachment. Not ALL flashing must be lead nor must they conform to the tile contour.

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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Help...experts...

    Many thanks to rtadja and Ian for the idea of water test. But I am not sure if I am capable of accessing the roof and run the water.

    It seems the problem of the flashing not conforming to the tile contour in the #5 pic is not a big problem, as I read from the conversation between Jerry and Bob.

    In #3 pic, I am still not sure where the water goes from the flashing slot. Is there flashing under the tiles all the way down to the roof edge (as showed in red path A in the attached pic)? Or it turns to green path B?

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  15. #15
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    Default Re: Help...experts...

    The cricket flashing should look much like in this diagram. Note the turned up edges to direct water down hill as it travels around the chimney. Also note that the up slope or top of the cricket flashing is tucked under the tile while the bottom of the apron flashing is positioned over the top of the tile row. Water should be forced to exit on top of the tile to daylight as it travels down hill, never under them.

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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Help...experts...

    In your latest pic. rainwater (or applied test water) on the upslope of the chimney, will run off the tile, onto the metal flashing then underneath the remainder of the tile as it continues to follow gavity downhill. Depending upon the roof angle at the base of the chimney, some water may also pool and collect in the corner where the chimney and roof come together. Neither is good and should be corrected, with appropriate flashings and perhaps tile adjustment, to cause all water run-off to be dispersed on top of the tile and not under it.

    As explained in my previous post, water flowing under the tile will, overtime, deteriorate the underlying membrane (if it hasn't already) and leak through the rooof deck.

    FWIW I see very many similarly installed roofing applications in So.Cal - especially with tract built homes, including my own home, until corrected.


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