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  1. #1
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
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    Default Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    Looks like someone got a little happy with the metal shears. Do you note this in your ispection. First time I have seen this one.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew stouffer View Post
    Looks like someone got a little happy with the metal shears. Do you note this in your ispection. First time I have seen this one.
    I can't recall every seeing drip edge flashing that large.... Does that gutter have a flange or lip that extends up and under that drip edge?

    It does not look like water will go anywhere. It might not be a problem, but I will agree that it is unusual.

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    Not to mention premature failure of the veneer at its spill point. Fugly.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    It's getting close to halloween, I have been seing some strange things lately


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    Have to disagree with you Scott. But what would you know being in TN. Do you guys even get snow down there?
    Seriously though. I've seen that drip edge before, it is common up here on various applications. I would write that up as a major defect and liability. Not so much for the nails though.
    - Cutting the drip edge I would report, probably won't be an issue but could lead to water penetration behind during snow.
    The bigger issues for me are:
    - shingle wear at the discharge end of the gutter
    - snow/ice damming and resulting damage in the nook at the end of the gutter
    - look at the picture close, to me I see a small area of 'blue'. I'm thinking that is exposed insulation board. It also doesn't look like there is any flashing from the shingles up along small wall area right there. I'm guessing ice/snow damming in the winter; water penetration in that area come spring time.
    See if you can blowup the original photo better and tell if that is insulation board or not.
    Write the crap out of it.

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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    A lot of siding and gutter companies install flashing in this manner to keep water from wicking and getting between the gutter and gutter board. I am surprised that so many have not seen this application. The flashing was installed after the gutters. Water can run uphill.....


  7. #7
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    Around here I am my concern is the drip edge is gong to be damaged by the snow and ice.


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    Default Re: Drip edge flashing, cut to install gutters

    When the gutter installers, or even the roofers on re-roofs when they install the new drip edge around gutters, they are not allowed to violate (i.e., cut) the drip edge like that.

    1) The drip edge really needs to be replaced.

    2) The building officials in this area got together and agreed that if the drip edge was sealed to the gutter and all around the cut out section with a long lasting gutter sealant or other long lasting sealant (i.e., not regular "caulk"), then they would "let it go".

    Many roofers will remove the gutter spikes and supports section by section as they install the drip edge on re-roofs to avoid that.

    When the gutter installers do it, they create a "roofing problem".

    You should see the drip edge cut at outside corners, inside corners, and ends of the gutter runs - the drip edge is totally violated and the gutter installers need to be shot, or better yet, make them pay for a roofer to replace all the drip edge - do that once or twice and they will quit cutting the drip edge up like that.

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  9. #9
    David Bell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    Seems to me the wrong type of dripedge was installed. The shingles overhang leaving that dripedge hanging in the gutter with no backing. An overhang dripedge should be used.


  10. #10

    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    Not being in snow country, I wouldn't be that concerned with the cuts in the flashing. I'm just happy when dripedge flashing is installed.

    The shingles should have run out a little further so that most of the water never hits the flashing.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    I do not think that is roof edging. The roof edge is not visible because it is covered by this flashing. Have you all not noticed black streaks coming down from underneath gutters, leaving a black spot on the bottom of the gutter board, eventurally rotting the gutter board. The only way to keep that from happening is by flashing from under the roof into the gutter as shown in the picture. That was one of the first lessons I learned and that was back in the early 80s.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    He only did it in certain areas.

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  13. #13
    Philip's Avatar
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    It was flashed in the areas where the water was getting between the gutter and gutter board. Still a common practise. One company I know flashes all gutters because the owner does not want the service call because the "water is getting behind the gutter." There is a term for this that I can not find in my head this morning, but I have watched water hit the edge of the roof and curl backward, running uphill, and hitting the gutter board then dripping behind the gutters. Looking at the spot you can not see any physical differences than a few feet away where all the water is dripping off the roof into the gutters. Maybe the term I am looking for is "surface tension."
    Now I remember. 'Capillary action.'

    Last edited by Philip; 10-08-2010 at 07:31 AM.

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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Keller View Post
    Have to disagree with you Scott. But what would you know being in TN. Do you guys even get snow down there?
    Only enough to be pretty and remind you of what it is! The best part; it is gone in a day or two.

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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    You lucky dog Scott. Snowblower is probably some bizarre foreign object. Yeah the snow that stays for weeks and turns mucky grey is rough.

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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    I'm with Brandon, no issue with the drip edge. Roofs are designed to shed water which I see this installation as doing. I do comment on gutters that discharge without a downspout - too often leaves and debris build up between the edge of the gutter and the shingles and cause water to backup.

    Eric Barker, ACI
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Barker View Post
    I'm with Brandon, no issue with the drip edge. Roofs are designed to shed water which I see this installation as doing. I do comment on gutters that discharge without a downspout - too often leaves and debris build up between the edge of the gutter and the shingles and cause water to backup.
    lol... yes the roof is design to shed water and the drip edge is one element of the design that prevents the water from traveling back into the wood. When you compromise that element you are only allowing water to flow and moisten behind the drip edge.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    It looks to me that it was not the gutter folks but the ones that re-roofed the home that added the larger drip edge. As far as water getting behind it and wetting the fascia board well, to me it looks like the gutter is pretty far up behind it. As far as the gutter getting moved to accommodate the re-roof, well, then I guess someone should have allowed for that or the roofers note that it was suppose to be done.

    I am more worried about the fascia and drip edge backing and siding coming right down to the roof shingles. As far as the reroof I seriously doubt that the lower siding and such were removed to get the step flashing behind it properly. Cutting the drip edge with the gutter wel up behind it.....I seriously don't find that a big deal When snow and ice build up in the gutters everything gets wet anyway.

    Anyway there is a lot going on there that is wrong.

    And I will add, etc etc etc etc etc


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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    Provided the gutter support nails are slanted so water runs away from the eave, I don't believe I'd write this up. Water shedding down the drip edge will be directed into the gutter. If the support nails had been installed INTO the drip flashing, the flashing would have had a hole in it allowing possible moisture penetration.

    I'd be more concerned about the wood siding wicking moisture at shingle contact points noticeable in the last photo.

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  20. #20
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    It looks to me that it was not the gutter folks but the ones that re-roofed the home that added the larger drip edge. As far as water getting behind it and wetting the fascia board well, to me it looks like the gutter is pretty far up behind it. As far as the gutter getting moved to accommodate the re-roof, well, then I guess someone should have allowed for that or the roofers note that it was suppose to be done.

    I am more worried about the fascia and drip edge backing and siding coming right down to the roof shingles. As far as the reroof I seriously doubt that the lower siding and such were removed to get the step flashing behind it properly. Cutting the drip edge with the gutter wel up behind it.....I seriously don't find that a big deal When snow and ice build up in the gutters everything gets wet anyway.

    Anyway there is a lot going on there that is wrong.

    And I will add, etc etc etc etc etc
    There is nothing wrong. It was the gutter guys who put the flashing between the roof and the gutter. Look at it. Where is the water coming off the roof going to go. When it come to electrical panels I will shake my head and say ok. When it comes to what happens between the roof and the gutter, I say I am the expert in this siltuation. I have lived it for forty years.


  21. #21
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    Quote Originally Posted by champainspectionnews View Post
    lol... yes the roof is design to shed water and the drip edge is one element of the design that prevents the water from traveling back into the wood. When you compromise that element you are only allowing water to flow and moisten behind the drip edge.
    Correct. Your elementary observation is well taken. What's your point?

    Eric Barker, ACI
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  22. #22
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    Of course it ALL should be reported.

    I'm not of the opinion this was nipped and installed as pictured, but that the HEAVING, lifting, bending, and metal tearing likely took place from the huge ice dam and accumulations BELOW and against the sidewall, under this gutter, from prior season(s).

    Never EVER run gutter onto/over close to another roof surface - That IS A MAJOR DEFECT/problem and Ice Dam/Snow Dam/jam galore problem up there in SNOW COUNTRY. Bottom of that gutter/eavestrough is what a mere few inches, if that above the lower roof surface?!?!?!?

    Torn eavestrough as well, no end cap, either blown out & ripped from prior season's ice and snow accumulations/ice dams or never installed in the furst place/pitched wrong, WAY TO CLOSE TO LOWER ROOF SURFACE AND SIDE wall, and no proper down spout elsewhere, and thus emptying onto the lower roofed surface - either way not allowed and worthy of mention - as will errode those arch shingles and voids shingle warranty.

    Needs its own "down" to grade not empting/dumping onto another roofed surface, especially next to side wall - and the clearance between bottom of gutter and roofing surface acts as a DAM to catch water, snow and ice from the lower elevation roof surface's grade above. This will fill and have no where to empty - yet accumulate warmth from the sun - thus an ice dam machine as installed.



    Built in blind/dam not acceptable for climate poor installation/ choice of material/design for climate/conditions/roof style. with that torn out unfinished gutter/eavestrough. This gutter should have ended well before either of those tears/stabs, frankly it doesn't belong here. Roofing lines and intersections poorly designed for snow climate.







    Note subsequent post's other photo with the heat cables, improper/missing flashing to sidewall wood, gaps, etc. direct infiltration and capillary action to wood siding. Obviously a snow accumulation/ice dam problem exists here. Cables not a permanent remedy to fix defective/inappropriate design/work/materials.



    Both sets of photos lack of cants at roof/sidewall intersections, further problem with gutter dumping onto lower running into wall. The area in the first set of pics should also have some sort of cricket, cant or transition. Note deck at spillway below, presume also an entryway onto deck.

    Poor choice of install/support method and gutter/eavestrough sizing for size (area), pitch, of roof and geographical location (snow loads).

    Last photo above emphasizes how the roofing was improperly installed, starter course all wrong. Note waviness/lifting and curling. My guess, as to the metal work, is that it was all after the bad roofing job, improper handy-type attempts to address defects in workmanship of poor roofing job, would be suspicious of leaking in both cabled and non cabled areas esp. in snow season.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 10-09-2010 at 10:41 AM.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    Torn eavestrough as well, no end cap, either blown out & ripped from prior season's ice and snow accumulations/ice dams or never installed in the furst place/pitched wrong, WAY TO CLOSE TO LOWER ROOF SURFACE AND SIDE wall, and no proper down spout elsewhere, and thus emptying onto the lower roofed surface - either way not allowed and worthy of mention - as will errode those arch shingles and voids shingle warranty.
    H.G.,

    I'm curious as to what manufacturers warranty would be voided by by draining a gutter onto a lower roof plane? I can't recall reading that, and am not challenging you. It is the go to method (not ideal) in my area, and at times does lead to some premature shingle wear. It's not something I get excited about, because it doesn't typically cause problems here.


  24. #24
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    H.G.,
    That installation is typical in the state of KY. We do have snow in KY. How would you recommend to stop the water from wicking and dumping between the gutter and gutter board. In your area how is the water handled coming off of a dormer. You either choose not to gutter a dormer, or you run downspouts (drains) down the roof to empty into another gutter, which most homeowners object to. I think most of your post is incorrect.


  25. #25
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    Open gutters on homes all the time around here, don't like it but!.
    Think you guys are off your rocker on the snipping of the drip edge. Seen thousands of homes this way and never seen a problem in my 30+ roofing career. Sure it ain't pretty but leakage issues..... I doubt it.

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    Default Re: Drip edge flashing, cut to install gutters

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Schulz View Post
    Think you guys are off your rocker on the snipping of the drip edge. Seen thousands of homes this way

    Just because you've seen it thousands of times does not make it right.

    It is not right, and therefore it should be written up and corrected.

    HIs cannot force any to "correct" anything, but HIs should at least write the stuff up, who know, it "may" be corrected ... at least give your clients the chance to have a shot at it.

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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    I'm not getting it and guess you will burn it to me in a minute but what exactly will that lower lip being cut is going to cause what type of problem.

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    Default Re: Drip edge flashing, cut to install gutters

    Mike,

    When you install drip edge, how do you install it? (Minimum lap, minimum face height, minimum roof face, nailing, over/under underlayment, bed of roof cement over/under drip edge, etc.?)

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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Schulz View Post
    I'm not getting it and guess you will burn it to me in a minute but what exactly will that lower lip being cut is going to cause what type of problem.
    .
    Park City Resort Stats
    .
    OP average Snowfall is 360 Inches.
    .

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  30. #30
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    Default Re: Drip edge flashing, cut to install gutters

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Mike,

    When you install drip edge, how do you install it? (Minimum lap, minimum face height, minimum roof face, nailing, over/under underlayment, bed of roof cement over/under drip edge, etc.?)
    Roof cement on drip edge? Once again. The sheet metal is coil stock and is not functioning as a drip edge. It is installed only to keep the water from getting between the gutter and the gutter board. There is nothing to correct on that roof, the metal is correcting a problem, and that was where the water was (once again) getting between the gutter and gutter board which is not influenced by the drip edge.


  31. #31
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    The drip edge design is to keep water from following the contour of the shingle overhang and running on top or behind the fascia band to protect the sheathing and wood. Hence the term "drip edge".
    It was not designed for snow back-up in gutters but may help in some instance. Snow would also back-up under the bottom edge of the drip edge.
    The roofer may have made the metal extra wide for that section because of the gap between the fascia board and the roof deck/sheathing. I have seen where you could stick your hand between the two.

    The roofer did not want to pull the gutter spikes becuase typically you ruin the ferrels or bend the aluminum nails. Also I have seen more rot around the nail protrusion so it may be better that the drip kind of covers the penetration.

    My two cents and I would not call that out unless I saw some type of problem

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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    I continue to be amazed how many guys don't see that as a real problem for the client. As first mentioned, write the crap out of it.

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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    I continue to be amazed that some people can't learn anything and call out anything they don't understand.

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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Schulz View Post
    I continue to be amazed that some people can't learn anything and call out anything they don't understand.

    Yep, kind of like a southern fella not understanding the perils of the inproper installation for a multi-story large building with multi-pitched roofing in higher altitude/elevation SNOW/SKI country where REAL WINTERS with substantial snow fall and sustained LOW TEMPERATURES occur.

    Your NC experience just doesn't "cut it". Are you BLIND to the fact that the improperly pitched eavestrough run to the shingles less than 1/2 of its exposure is a BUILT-IN ICE DAM machine? Do you have any idea how sustained winds and below freezing temps will effect the reminants of high snow loads not yet melted or evaporated on the roof not long after the sun sets, or where the sun doesn't shine?

    This is a BAD retrofit not "fit" for the architecture, geographical location, etc. with poor planing, selection of materials, and execution, and improper approach to a bad, poorly planed & designed, improperly executed, defective roofing project.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 10-11-2010 at 09:00 AM.

  35. #35
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    If you pull that flashing off you will see the drip edge. There is nothing wrong with the install.


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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    Quote Originally Posted by Philip View Post
    If you pull that flashing off you will see the drip edge. There is nothing wrong with the install.

    Yea, right.

    That isn't "flashing", it is the drip edge.


  37. #37
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    Sorry HG your way off base. That metal has nothing to do with "snow" period.
    HG tell me exactly what that cut in the drip is causing what problem "exactly" not what you personally think.
    HG granted I respect allot of things you have posted "but" the drip tore because of load.......Pleaseeeeeeeeee....spare me your comments of anything I post because mine can be substantiated by past experience where yours is fiction. I could stand on that gutter and it would not rip through that drip edge. The aluminum nails would be damaged as well as the gutter collapse first.
    First and foremost...OP...what problems have occurred with that installation. How long has that install been that way? I bet no probelms has occurred and no problems will occur from those snipped areas.

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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    What I would call out is the seam of the Ferrel are facing upwards which creates a channel for water to run to the penetration. I would also address the weathered wood at the mouth of the opening of the gutter.

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  39. #39
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    Default Re: Drip edge flashing, cut to install gutters

    Quote Originally Posted by Philip View Post
    Roof cement on drip edge?
    Yep.

    The sheet metal is coil stock and is not functioning as a drip edge.
    Apparently you do not recognize drip edge.

    It is installed only to keep the water from getting between the gutter and the gutter board.
    First the drip edge is installed, then the gutter is installed behind the drip edge, then the gutter supports are installed, usually either spikes or hidden support brackets, sometimes visible support brackets.

    However, when a roof is re-roofed and the drip edge is replaced, the options are limited: a) remove the gutter supports section by section as the new drip edge is installed; b) mutilate the drip edge and slide the drip edge over the gutter supports (gutter spikes as shown in the photos) - it is done all the time ... and it is wrong *every single time*.

    There is nothing to correct on that roof,
    Nothing that properly installing new drip edge won't fix.

    the metal is correcting a problem,
    The metal IS the problem.

    Sheesh.

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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    It hasn't pulled down you NC putz it has HEAVED from the ice collections on the surface below.


  41. #41
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    Does not the rest of the house have a proper drip edge installed? Why are you naysayers having a problem with this. Do you think the roofer ran out of manufactured drip edge and resorted to breaking coil to make up for his lack of proper materials on the job? Have you not read my previous posts? I have never, in forty years, seen a roofer use any kind of sealant on drip edge. Have you never seen a rotted gutterboard on a house that had proper drip edge installed? And just where in the hell can you buy drip edge that looks like that? It is not drip edge. It is coil stock broken on a brake to flash the roof because the water was wicking, running uphill and then dripping on the back side of the gutter that is not sealed to the gutter board. There is nothing wrong with this installation. I have only seen drip edge in three colors, musket brown, black, and white. I have never seen it in bronze. You learn these things after you have replaced a couple thousand feet of gutter board.


  42. #42
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    HG I believe you to be a integlegent man but your arrogance makes you appear ignorant which which I no longer will reply to someone that speaks with his ass. By the way as you so boldly implied this southern redneck will be glad to place his foot in.

    HG when you stated that it heaved and tore the metal it really shows you know nothing about this particular thread.

    I appreciate any debate and I respect Mr. Pecks replies because he intelligently replied and refrained from high school name calling .
    Only thing neither one has stated why the drip edge is a problem except that it cosmetically not appealing.

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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    Phillip,

    I agree with your post and your spot on, but I choose to call it drip edge for it mimics it's design. We field bend drip, cap metal chimney lashings, skylight flashing all the time.

    If HG ever gets his head out of his azz and let his ego go he will also realize he is wrong. HG look at the tool marks at the bend in the cuts. It was field snipped and bent outwards, not heaved up you moron.

    Now I am done.

    Mike Schulz License 393
    Affordable Home Inspections
    www.houseinspections.com

  44. #44
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    Default Re: NOT Drip edge flashing, this is Flanged Gutter Apron there is no shingle overhang

    Pictured is Gutter Apron flashing with a flange. There is no shingle "overhang". Poor "fix" for improperly installed architectual shingles. Prior retrofit gutter supports not R/R.

    See original architectual detail (gutter-less) above the heat cables in third pic.

    NC putz can't scroll to the left and see where gutter APRON flashing has split beyond any nip/notch (never should have been nipped or notched in the first place)! Stab pulled out, trough has distorted, twisted and flared.

    Stabbed gutters with gutter apron are no substitute for a snow retention system. (Southerners, yep in snow country they are needed even for other than metal and slate roofs).

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 10-12-2010 at 09:06 AM.

  45. #45
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    Quote Originally Posted by Philip View Post
    And just where in the hell can you buy drip edge that looks like that? It is not drip edge. It is coil stock broken on a brake to flash the roof because the water was wicking, running uphill and then dripping on the back side of the gutter that is not sealed to the gutter board. There is nothing wrong with this installation. I have only seen drip edge in three colors, musket brown, black, and white. I have never seen it in bronze. You learn these things after you have replaced a couple thousand feet of gutter board.
    > roofing > drip edge : Quality Edge Building Products

    Gutter Supply Company - 2 1/4" X 3" X 10 ft Aluminum Gutter Apron

    Two examples of 10' sections available in more than 10 colors, formed exactly as pictured. There are scores of other suppliers in many more than four colors offering Gutter Apron flashing, even in the SE.


  46. #46
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    HG with drip edge you can reduce the overhang as stated in most applications. Most companies form the metal themselves so they can give the reveal they desire for each application.

    Again you still haven't showed what destruction those snipped areas are causing.

    Original poster needs to reply on this ,and if any problems where noted, and how long it has been installed that way. Until then quit being so arrogant. As phillip has stated for this particular application they needed wide metal to cover the back of the gutter because it hangs low on the fascia board. " IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH SNOW" "BUT i'M SURE SNOW COULD BE A SMALL FACTOR AND i BET IT'S FOR WATER RUNOFF".

    Mike Schulz License 393
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  47. #47
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    Not a T supporting edge, this is "L" GUTTER APRON.

    By cutting, nipping, splitting its purpose is DEFEATED. Blind you are to the obvious DEFECTS in this installation.

    Pre-formed Gutter Apron can be found in many overhang lengths not just 2", even 5-6", many colors, and styles. Not all is aluminum stock either.

    Phil, here's yet another multitude of colors from rollex (29):

    Gutter Apron


  48. #48
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    Philip Guest

    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Not a T supporting edge, this is "L" GUTTER APRON.

    By cutting, nipping, splitting its purpose is DEFEATED. Blind you are to the obvious DEFECTS in this installation.

    Pre-formed Gutter Apron can be found in many overhang lengths not just 2", even 5-6", many colors, and styles. Not all is aluminum stock either.

    Phil, here's yet another multitude of colors from rollex (29):

    Gutter Apron
    I have never seen this product in our market area. The fact that the wide material was not used on the entire house, I still contend it was fashioned at the job site out of coil stock to stop water from wicking behind the gutter.


  49. #49
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    C'mon, kids. The gutter apron has been clipped. Is a drip edge flashing installed behind it? We don't know. Will water creep through the splits, over the top of the gutter and cause problems? That's the question. I would only report damage to the fascia if I saw damage.

    Two kinds of flashing trim. Second pic. Gutter apron (left) and Drip edge (right).

    Gutter Standards

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    Last edited by John Kogel; 10-12-2010 at 09:54 PM. Reason: bigger pics
    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  50. #50
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    By cutting, nipping, splitting its purpose is DEFEATED. Blind you are to the obvious DEFECTS in this installation.
    The purpose of the apron, which by the way was a good find on your part, is to direct water into the gutter. The snipped metal is still directing the water into the gutter even at the snipped area. The gutter spike is driven through the back side of the gutter and I am sure there is 1" or more to the top of the back of the gutter.

    The only DEFECT in this installation is the sloppy installation which is "cosmetic".

    The purpose is not DEFEATED because it is still directing water as intended.

    One more thing HG I appreciate you refraining from verbally abusing "my opinion".
    As far as being blind I don't think so just because we don't see eye to eye.

    Mike Schulz License 393
    Affordable Home Inspections
    www.houseinspections.com

  51. #51
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    Default Re: Drip edge flashing, cut to install gutters

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    C'mon, kids. The gutter apron has been clipped. Is a drip edge flashing installed behind it? We don't know. Will water creep through the splits, over the top of the gutter and cause problems? That's the question. I would only report damage to the fascia if I saw damage.

    Two kinds of flashing trim. Second pic. Gutter apron (left) and Drip edge (right).

    Gutter Standards

    John,

    For some reason, lately you have been posting smaller resolution photos which are more difficult to see.

    However, even with that, if you look at what you posted you will see that the "gutter apron" does not have the kicked out "drip" edge along the bottom which drip edge has (see the original photos for what I am referring to).

    Also, drip edge comes in a variety of configurations, some with more of a overhanging front edge and some with less, some with almost none (think of gravel stop, some looks just like that shown in the original photos, some have a small raised front edge - the "gravel stop" - and some have virtually no front raised edge, again, quite similar to the original photos).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Schulz
    Only thing neither one has stated why the drip edge is a problem except that it cosmetically not appealing.
    I thought I had stated why, but I guess I just asked you why/how you install drip edge and waited for you to reply so I could explain the "why", so ... I am still waiting for those answers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck
    Mike,

    When you install drip edge, how do you install it? (Minimum lap, minimum face height, minimum roof face, nailing, over/under underlayment, bed of roof cement over/under drip edge, etc.?)


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  52. #52
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    Hi Jerry,

    Sorry I glazed over your comment and did not realized it was directed at me. For the most part standard drip edge is used and for installation, tar paper over eave and drip on rakes over paper. Tar is not required in our area and is only used under certain circumstances depending on the predicament. Field bent apron and or drip is modifed also to fit the circumstance. When we come across this particular arrangement we would cut two slits, one on each side of the ferrel and bend the tab upwards. We would most lilkey snip half that so it would not be so long. The tab covers the top of the Ferrel which keeps water from rolling back.

    What we won't do is pull spikes. Reason is the hole that the spike was in will not be snug to hold the spike after pulling so you have to drive a new one. Two we don't like to drive a hole through the face of the apron metal giving path for water to follow Into the band. If the spikes had gaskets that would be diffrent.

    So again! even though the work is not pretty and no damage is occurring "I" would not call out for something to be changed because I did not like the way it looked. There is no literature that I can find that say's you can't alter the profile or field modifiy for specialty applications.

    In this particular installation there is no set standard to abide by and is the discretion of the installer which is warranting that install against leakage.

    Be easy Jerry I respect and like you and don't want to loose that over trivial conversation.

    Mike Schulz License 393
    Affordable Home Inspections
    www.houseinspections.com

  53. #53
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    Default Re: Drip edge flashing, cut to install gutters

    Mike,

    What is the minimum lap for the drip edge? Is the drip edge required to be primed and sealed at the lap?

    First, let's start with the minimum lap of the drip edge.

    In Florida the minimum lap for drip edge is 3", and that is just that - a "lap".

    Once the vertical face of the drip edge is cut, the "lap" is gone, caput, there is no "lap".

    I typically see two types of cuts at gutter spikes: 1) as shown in the photo; 2) as you describe and for the reason you describe.

    However, either of those cuts would require another piece of drip edge to be installed over the cut, which would defeat the purpose of cutting the initial drip edge.

    What the building officials here (in this part of Florida) have decided is that if the roofer is going to cut the drip edge and destroy it without a lap at the cut, then the roofers will be required to seal each and every 'non-lap' with a good quality sealant so that no water can enter at the 'non-lap' cuts.

    After a roofer gets through going around a roof and sealing all of the cuts up, the next roof they do they find a way to remove the gutter spikes, install new drip edge uncut, drive new gutter spikes through the drip edge, squeezing sealant on the end of the gutter spikes so the holes the gutter spikes create are now sealed. The preferred option is, of course, to install the gutters without mutilating the drip edge.

    The other places where the drip edge is mutilated are: at outside corners; inside corners; where the gutters end and the drip edge continues. *ALL* those areas now have to be sealed up.

    Some areas of Florida (HVHZ - High Velocity Hurricane Zone, i.e., Miami-Dade and Broward counties) require the drip edge laps be primed and sealed.

    Also, regarding plastic roof cement at the drip edge, if the drip edge is placed over the underlayment (as required for much of the state due to wind speeds), then either a bed of plastic roof cement is laid down and the drip edge placed in it (the old way and it works better), or, the drip edge is nailed down and then a 4" wide bed of plastic roof cement is applied over the joint so water will not leak between the underlayment and the drip edge.

    Here (most of Florida) the drip edge is installed over the underlayment as that is the primary and first restraint to retain the roof covering down during a high wind event (hurricane). When the drip edge is under the underlayment, the wind can peel the entire roof covering off in one large sheet simply be getting in under the bottom of the underlayment and peeling the underlayment back, which takes all the shingles with it. That is an advantage of peel-n-stick underlayment - it sticks down and it ain't comin' up without the roof sheathing too. Of course, when it comes time to re-roof ... the peel-n-stick is not going to come up then either.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  54. #54
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    Jerry, now I know where you are coming from, but you have to realize that we are over six hundred miles from the nearest ocean. We have never had a hurricane rip through our neighborhoods. We have tornadoes and when they hit you it does not matter of the construction techniques, your roof is going to follow Auntie Ems niece to the yellow brick road.
    What we all must realize is we are talking about some very different weather, soils, rainfall, heat, cold, wind, etc. An igloo as a domicile would just not work in Florida,
    H.G Sr., I have to admit that I have never heard 'gutter apron' until today.
    When I think about it there is a lot of sense to that product. I just told a young man the other day that yes I am an old dog, but I can be taught new tricks. I have seen thousands of feet of gutter edge installed and not one foot of it was sealed with a bitumen substance, but I live and work in the 'mid-west'. Jerry, I think much of what you espoused came from Andrew, which is just fine if Andrew or Alice or Camile, etc. is the influence of your building practises.
    You can write that gutter installation up, but when I come to that situation in our climate, our region, I will just note that there was a problem with where the water was going off of the dormer but it has been addressed.
    We are not in a perfect world.


  55. #55
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    Phillip, we have old and young dog 'roofers' here who wouldn't know a drip edge if it slapped them in the face.

    That apron in Utah was too long. If they had trimmed 2" off the bottom edge, would there be any discussion?

    What if they just left it in the truck?

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  56. #56
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    John, you are right about that. Many roofers in this area leave drip edge off claiming it is not needed and is no longer in the building codes. Others claim it is not needed in roofs of 6/12 or greater. Of course it is still code, but they get by with it. I just point out to the client that it is not there, and it's function. Just a story. When the hidden hangers first came into popularity we called them 'invisible hangers'. I was with a ninety-year old woman and told her we would use those new 'invisible hangers' on her new gutters. She looked at me in amazement and asked, 'well, how do your guys find them?'


  57. #57
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    ...not to mention the poor schmuck cleaning the gutter and pulling out his bloodied hand! At minimum it can be written up as a safety hazard during gutter maintanence.


  58. #58
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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Murphy View Post
    ...not to mention the poor schmuck cleaning the gutter and pulling out his bloodied hand! At minimum it can be written up as a safety hazard during gutter maintanence.
    Now that I will agree with.


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    Default Re: Drip edge flasing, cut to install gutters

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Schulz View Post
    Open gutters on homes all the time around here, don't like it but!.
    Think you guys are off your rocker on the snipping of the drip edge. Seen thousands of homes this way and never seen a problem in my 30+ roofing career. Sure it ain't pretty but leakage issues..... I doubt it.
    Easily proven to be true. Try a few drops of kitchen food coloring-add water (preferably rain) and voila. Hard to deny.


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