Results 1 to 29 of 29
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Winfield, IL
    Posts
    37

    Default High nailing shingle failure

    Shingles on this house were high nailed, that is, secured well high of the self sealing strip. Looks like the wind has ripped many of the shingles off right through the nail heads. I am thinking complete replacement. Anyway chance this roof covering could be salvaged (resecured)?

    Similar Threads:
    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    Last edited by Eric Williams; 05-26-2011 at 02:58 PM. Reason: typo
    2018 ASHI InspectionWorld

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Southern Vancouver Island
    Posts
    4,546

    Default Re: High nailing shingle failure

    False economy for the home owner to reuse those shingles. He could stack them carefully and sell them for a shed roof job.
    Those shingles where over-exposed as well, from the looks of it. What a mess!

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Knoxville, TN
    Posts
    2,445

    Default Re: High nailing shingle failure

    If I only saw the 1st photo, and it was only those couple of shingles, then i would say it would be OK to reuse them and just nail them properly.
    But when its pretty obvious the roofing job was an unprofessional cluster..., then a total re-do is probably in order.


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Columbus GA
    Posts
    3,746

    Default Re: High nailing shingle failure

    "then a total re-do is probably in order."

    Probabaly??

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  5. #5
    MARVIN TOWNSEN's Avatar
    MARVIN TOWNSEN Guest

    Default Re: High nailing shingle failure

    How old is that roof, it doesnt look like the sealing tabs have even adhered yet? In my opinion it should be replaced. My questions are was it inspected, and if so was a licensed contractor used? If so is it under warranty. The big issue is that the roofing manufacture will not warranty an improper installation. Honestly all you have to do is read the friggin package and follow local codes, not too hard. Shed is a great idea as long as you buy lots of tar and read the instructions. The only way it could be repaired is if you, sealed all the existing wholes with manufactured approved sealant and properly secured each shingle, but the warranty would still be voided. Then you have to deal with the exposure issue. My other question is are you in a potential high wind area? There are special requirements for the application of fastners also. usually at least two extra fastners per shingle which they didnt even do that Sorry i hate seeing people get ripped off by shoddy work just my 2 cents


  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,246

    Default Re: High nailing shingle failure

    Needs to be replaced.

    Municipal roof inspections as we know them (as I know them and as I do them) will likely be changing very soon.

    OSHA recently issued some new changes which require municipal inspector to have personal tie-off equipment, the roof to have fall protection, railings, etc., which takes effect next June 16th. I have a class on this on June 15th.

    The likelihood is that municipal inspection departments will no be allowing their inspectors up onto roof where the fall from the edge is greater than 6 feet (versus the other option of purchasing and maintaining fall protection equipment).

    With that said, rof nailing, roof dry-in, roof final inspections may become the way of the dinosaur (as related to municipal inspections).

    I fail virtually every roof nailing, dry-in and final inspection the first time around, some a second time. In place of those inspections may be notarized affidavits from the roofing contractors attesting that they did that work properly ... like, yeah, man, of course I did that properly.

    I hope that is not what this comes to, but it certainly is one of the options which will be considered after the new OHSA rule takes affect on June 16th.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  7. #7
    MARVIN TOWNSEN's Avatar
    MARVIN TOWNSEN Guest

    Default Re: High nailing shingle failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Needs to be replaced.

    Municipal roof inspections as we know them (as I know them and as I do them) will likely be changing very soon.

    OSHA recently issued some new changes which require municipal inspector to have personal tie-off equipment, the roof to have fall protection, railings, etc., which takes effect next June 16th. I have a class on this on June 15th.

    The likelihood is that municipal inspection departments will no be allowing their inspectors up onto roof where the fall from the edge is greater than 6 feet (versus the other option of purchasing and maintaining fall protection equipment).

    With that said, rof nailing, roof dry-in, roof final inspections may become the way of the dinosaur (as related to municipal inspections).

    I fail virtually every roof nailing, dry-in and final inspection the first time around, some a second time. In place of those inspections may be notarized affidavits from the roofing contractors attesting that they did that work properly ... like, yeah, man, of course I did that properly.

    I hope that is not what this comes to, but it certainly is one of the options which will be considered after the new OHSA rule takes affect on June 16th.
    That is really sad for the homeowner, when part of the purchase price of the home is a municipal inspection, yet the inspector cannot do their job correctly. hey why even have inspections at all


  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Winfield, IL
    Posts
    37

    Default Re: High nailing shingle failure

    Quote Originally Posted by MARVIN TOWNSEN View Post
    How old is that roof, it doesnt look like the sealing tabs have even adhered yet? In my opinion it should be replaced. My questions are was it inspected, and if so was a licensed contractor used? If so is it under warranty. The big issue is that the roofing manufacture will not warranty an improper installation. Honestly all you have to do is read the friggin package and follow local codes, not too hard. Shed is a great idea as long as you buy lots of tar and read the instructions. The only way it could be repaired is if you, sealed all the existing wholes with manufactured approved sealant and properly secured each shingle, but the warranty would still be voided. Then you have to deal with the exposure issue. My other question is are you in a potential high wind area? There are special requirements for the application of fastners also. usually at least two extra fastners per shingle which they didnt even do that Sorry i hate seeing people get ripped off by shoddy work just my 2 cents
    Roof not as new as it looks in photo. Quite a bit of granule loss. It's an estate sale and nobody seems to know exact age. And no, this is not considered a high wind area.


  9. #9
    Michael Gantt's Avatar
    Michael Gantt Guest

    Default Re: High nailing shingle failure

    Excellent timing of this thread. I have a roofer in his truck, at this moment, waiting for the general contractor who built my house to show up. I think this is the problem!


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    21

    Default Re: High nailing shingle failure

    Jerry I had a conversation with a OSHA inspector just a month ago about the requirement for inspectors to have fall protection. He said nothing about this new requirement. This is a real game changer for code inspectors. Do you have a link for this online?


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    21

    Default Re: High nailing shingle failure

    This would apply to home inspectors also I would think.


  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    21

    Default Re: High nailing shingle failure

    Sheathing inspections also. Well really anytime your on a roof.


  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,246

    Default Re: High nailing shingle failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerome Schrenker View Post
    Jerry I had a conversation with a OSHA inspector just a month ago about the requirement for inspectors to have fall protection. He said nothing about this new requirement. This is a real game changer for code inspectors. Do you have a link for this online?
    Jerome,

    I'll see what I can find out next week when I get back to work. I know I will have more information on June 15.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerome Schrenker View Post
    This would apply to home inspectors also I would think.
    I suspect that it may not, not unless the home inspector is an employee of a larger home inspection firm, then probably yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerome Schrenker View Post
    Sheathing inspections also. Well really anytime your on a roof.
    Yep ... "Well really anytime your on a roof.", but not only on roofs, also on balconies, decks, any surface where the surface below is greater than 6 feet lower than the surface you are on.

    I can see this being applied to second floor areas, which will require a proper guard rail, etc. Yeah, they should have already been having a guard rail, but now it will be a requirement for the next inspection.

    I will try to find out what I can and far this is going to be applicable - but my guess is that is going to be: "to all surfaces which you are on that are 6 feet higher than the surface below".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,777

    Default Re: High nailing shingle failure

    Eric,
    No thinking about it.
    If this is not your house and you do not want to be dragged into litigation for your recommendation, the only answer (recommendation) is to have the entire roof torn off and replaced. Unless the incorrect nailing is localized. But to determine that you would have to lift all of the shingle and check. I would think that a representative number over the entire roof would be sufficient in court.

    If it is your house and you are willing to accept the risk and are willing to do the work, go for it. You could get a system of two or tree guys for lifting, nailing and sealing to make the job go quicker. Add to the enjoyment of risk and find some illegal aliens to do the work for you.


  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: High nailing shingle failure

    Nailing isn't the only major problem with these shingles!

    Obviously a non-professional, legitimate, installation - who couldn't or chose to not read even the most basic of instructions that come with any composition shingle bundle,

    This photo displays such a multitude of basic, and horrid, failure-to problems it isn't really worth addressing!!!

    Roofing contractors are required to be licensed in Illinois, this should not be news to you. Unless the now deceased H.O., or prior "flipper-type" did the "work" themself, or had the job done "on the sly" without a permit, there should be some sort of "trail" - as obviously more than a small percentage of the roofing surface was "worked on".

    There is NOTHING salvagable about the architectual shingles "installed" that you have photographed. A complete tear off minimally, required.



    I really don't understand why you'd even "care" how old or how long these materials are, or when the so-called "work" was done - there is nothing warranty-wise from the mfg that would apply the materials weren't installed correctly - and the roof covering is toast! If the HO is now deceased - seems it would be more trouble, and financial waste (civil atty, probate atty - filing costs - plus time delays) than it is worth to even think about persuing this unless its an easy "slam dunk" as to who to go after and they have a pocket worth plucking - the roof needs to be worked on PDQ. Seems you're getting more than your fair share of rain, wind, etc. this Spring anyway - wouldn't be surprised to find problems within after this weekend, if not seen prior.

    I might suggest that the estate administrator/probate attorney/executor/excutrix should FOIA inquuiry, of course you could do the same, contact the authority having jurisdiction and do a permit search, can also look for liens, court cases, etc. searchiing at the county court house. Additionally, requesting a CLUE report and/or if the property has a mortgage with escrow provisions for paying out homeowner's insurance - the exec. can requrest escrow history to identify past indeminities - and inquiry made with the current and former agents of same.

    Your stated locale has had tornadic and straight wind events in the past, as well as hail claims and been subject to more than a few waves of "hail damage scammers" regards to roof repair scams.

    Not all that long ago (within the last few weeks), I recall having read a forwarded news story from your area about actions the state was seeking regarding a particular out of state entity/company - name may have started with a "G", didn't save the email or the attached story, which was aledged to have engaged in unlicensed activity with a host of substandard hail damage roof repair/replacements. May have been the A.G.'s office or the Division/department that licenses roofers in conjunction with a county State's attorney's office - if not your own, an adjacent county.

    The irregular coarses, over exposures, common seams, etc. pictured are unacceptable, esp. with this type of shingle/shangle.

    Frankly, am surprised the question was asked, as you have indicated subsequently the other condition issues. You didn't try walking this roof did you ??? (and folks are looking to you to "correct or repair" the unattached shingles in the first photo)??? Wouldn't have even THOUGHT about stepping off the ladder with what is pictured!!! Heck there's enough debris, slippage elsewhere, cupping, etc. that would have been a no-brainer - not a roof worthy of walking in the pictured condition.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 05-29-2011 at 11:54 AM.

  16. #16
    John S's Avatar
    John S Guest

    Cool Re: High nailing shingle failure

    Just want to throw my 2 cents in, dont consider a roofs age by the loss of granules. I had a 5 year old roof with 30 year premium shingles that had lots of bald spots right down to the paper. lots of granule ended up in gutter. Just a thought.


  17. #17
    MARVIN TOWNSEN's Avatar
    MARVIN TOWNSEN Guest

    Default Re: High nailing shingle failure

    Quote Originally Posted by John S View Post
    Just want to throw my 2 cents in, dont consider a roofs age by the loss of granules. I had a 5 year old roof with 30 year premium shingles that had lots of bald spots right down to the paper. lots of granule ended up in gutter. Just a thought.
    Sad part is the roof could only be a week old,but the improper install voids the warranty from the manufacturer. I agree, i have a roof on my own shop with 50 year shingles and its only two, already losing granules down to paper. I know my was installed correctly because i did it, and believe me i will be calling in the warranty.


  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Winfield, IL
    Posts
    37

    Default Re: High nailing shingle failure

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Nailing isn't the only major problem with these shingles!

    Obviously a non-professional, legitimate, installation - who couldn't or chose to not read even the most basic of instructions that come with any composition shingle bundle,

    This photo displays such a multitude of basic, and horrid, failure-to problems it isn't really worth addressing!!!

    Roofing contractors are required to be licensed in Illinois, this should not be news to you. Unless the now deceased H.O., or prior "flipper-type" did the "work" themself, or had the job done "on the sly" without a permit, there should be some sort of "trail" - as obviously more than a small percentage of the roofing surface was "worked on".

    There is NOTHING salvagable about the architectual shingles "installed" that you have photographed. A complete tear off minimally, required.



    I really don't understand why you'd even "care" how old or how long these materials are, or when the so-called "work" was done - there is nothing warranty-wise from the mfg that would apply the materials weren't installed correctly - and the roof covering is toast! If the HO is now deceased - seems it would be more trouble, and financial waste (civil atty, probate atty - filing costs - plus time delays) than it is worth to even think about persuing this unless its an easy "slam dunk" as to who to go after and they have a pocket worth plucking - the roof needs to be worked on PDQ. Seems you're getting more than your fair share of rain, wind, etc. this Spring anyway - wouldn't be surprised to find problems within after this weekend, if not seen prior.

    I might suggest that the estate administrator/probate attorney/executor/excutrix should FOIA inquuiry, of course you could do the same, contact the authority having jurisdiction and do a permit search, can also look for liens, court cases, etc. searchiing at the county court house. Additionally, requesting a CLUE report and/or if the property has a mortgage with escrow provisions for paying out homeowner's insurance - the exec. can requrest escrow history to identify past indeminities - and inquiry made with the current and former agents of same.

    Your stated locale has had tornadic and straight wind events in the past, as well as hail claims and been subject to more than a few waves of "hail damage scammers" regards to roof repair scams.

    Not all that long ago (within the last few weeks), I recall having read a forwarded news story from your area about actions the state was seeking regarding a particular out of state entity/company - name may have started with a "G", didn't save the email or the attached story, which was aledged to have engaged in unlicensed activity with a host of substandard hail damage roof repair/replacements. May have been the A.G.'s office or the Division/department that licenses roofers in conjunction with a county State's attorney's office - if not your own, an adjacent county.

    The irregular coarses, over exposures, common seams, etc. pictured are unacceptable, esp. with this type of shingle/shangle.

    Frankly, am surprised the question was asked, as you have indicated subsequently the other condition issues. You didn't try walking this roof did you ??? (and folks are looking to you to "correct or repair" the unattached shingles in the first photo)??? Wouldn't have even THOUGHT about stepping off the ladder with what is pictured!!! Heck there's enough debris, slippage elsewhere, cupping, etc. that would have been a no-brainer - not a roof worthy of walking in the pictured condition.
    H.G.,

    Thanks for having my safety in mind. Look, the roof was obviously in awful condition. Thought it made for a good thread. I personally have not run into a "recent" roof replacement failure to this degree. Just be careful with your assumptions. The client was not given any false hopes that the roof could be salvaged. The questions was for my own personal benefit and as a thought starter. Lot of great comments, yours included.


  19. #19
    John S's Avatar
    John S Guest

    Thumbs up Re: High nailing shingle failure

    Don't sweat it Eric. I liked the pics, thats what everyone including myself learns from. And not to beat a dead horse, I am a licensed pilot and we read stories all the time about plane crashes. Why? To learn why it happened and to avoid these things from happening again. Keep 'em comin'.


  20. #20
    MARVIN TOWNSEN's Avatar
    MARVIN TOWNSEN Guest

    Default Re: High nailing shingle failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Williams View Post
    H.G.,

    Thanks for having my safety in mind. Look, the roof was obviously in awful condition. Thought it made for a good thread. I personally have not run into a "recent" roof replacement failure to this degree. Just be careful with your assumptions. The client was not given any false hopes that the roof could be salvaged. The questions was for my own personal benefit and as a thought starter. Lot of great comments, yours included.
    Yes the roof could be salvaged, although it wouldnt last as long as another roof similiar in age. I know this because i have removed a couple of fairly new roofs and re-installed, they are about 30 years old, 20 years on the re-install. It is alot of work, but when i was younger and broker, ive done it. Having said that, I would never even think of doing that for a customer. The only reason I did it was because I saved alot of cash, not time. It worked out for me, but it was also on a barn not a home. But yes It could be salvaged,depending on condition. I re-iterate I would only do it for myself. Anyway I was just answering your question" could it be salvaged" rob


  21. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,246

    Default Re: High nailing shingle failure

    Quote Originally Posted by MARVIN TOWNSEN View Post
    Yes the roof could be salvaged, although it wouldnt last as long as another roof similiar in age. I know this because i have removed a couple of fairly new roofs and re-installed, they are about 30 years old, 20 years on the re-install. It is alot of work, but when i was younger and broker, ive done it. Having said that, I would never even think of doing that for a customer. The only reason I did it was because I saved alot of cash, not time. It worked out for me, but it was also on a barn not a home. But yes It could be salvaged,depending on condition. I re-iterate I would only do it for myself. Anyway I was just answering your question" could it be salvaged" rob
    I'll rephrase the "could it be salvaged" part ("The client was not given any false hopes that the roof could be salvaged.") ... that roof cannot be salvaged such that the shingles are re-installed properly, i.e., it cannot be "properly" salvaged.

    I say that knowing that I sometimes tell people that if you are going to do something incorrectly, at least do it correctly incorrectly, not incorrectly incorrectly ... and trying to salvage that roof is doing so incorrectly incorrectly.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  22. #22
    MARVIN TOWNSEN's Avatar
    MARVIN TOWNSEN Guest

    Default Re: High nailing shingle failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I'll rephrase the "could it be salvaged" part ("The client was not given any false hopes that the roof could be salvaged.") ... that roof cannot be salvaged such that the shingles are re-installed properly, i.e., it cannot be "properly" salvaged.

    I say that knowing that I sometimes tell people that if you are going to do something incorrectly, at least do it correctly incorrectly, not incorrectly incorrectly ... and trying to salvage that roof is doing so incorrectly incorrectly.
    agreed i think, WAIT ISNT RECYCLING THE MODERN DAY WORD FOR SALVAGING

    Last edited by MARVIN TOWNSEN; 05-31-2011 at 06:37 PM. Reason: another thought

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,246

    Default Re: High nailing shingle failure

    Quote Originally Posted by MARVIN TOWNSEN View Post
    agreed i think, WAIT ISNT RECYCLING THE MODERN DAY WORD FOR SALVAGING
    Recycling typically means to either make into something else or to use in some for something other than it originally was used.

    (underlining and bold are mine)
    - R104.9 Approved materials and equipment. Materials, equipment and devices approved by the building official shall be constructed and installed in accordance with such approval.
    - - R104.9.1 Used materials and equipment. Used materials, equipment and devices shall not be reused unless approved by the building official.


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  24. #24
    MARVIN TOWNSEN's Avatar
    MARVIN TOWNSEN Guest

    Default Re: High nailing shingle failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Recycling typically means to either make into something else or to use in some for something other than it originally was used.

    (underlining and bold are mine)
    - R104.9 Approved materials and equipment. Materials, equipment and devices approved by the building official shall be constructed and installed in accordance with such approval.
    - - R104.9.1 Used materials and equipment. Used materials, equipment and devices shall not be reused unless approved by the building official.
    Agreed, it is no longer used for a house roof, now its used for a barn roof p.s. in my county ag buildings dont have to meet code( its bs but its true)

    Last edited by MARVIN TOWNSEN; 05-31-2011 at 07:24 PM. Reason: another thought

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    wisconsin
    Posts
    1

    Default Re: High nailing shingle failure

    If someone is to catch this problem early enough where no shingles were damaged, couldn't you just re-nail where you are instructed to and save the roof?


  26. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,777

    Default Re: High nailing shingle failure

    Quote Originally Posted by alex webster View Post
    If someone is to catch this problem early enough where no shingles were damaged, couldn't you just re-nail where you are instructed to and save the roof?
    There is no way that you could say that "no shingles were damaged" as a preface to save the roof. Being nailed once and then to remove the shingle will leave the shingle damaged. Just in the process of the excess handling of the shingle will cause damage to the shingle, though it may not be immediately noticeable, but will show up over time.

    The catching of the problem early might allow the first or second course to be re-nailed, though it would probably void any warranty. The fact that the extra nailing might have no long term negative effect, the manufacture will use it as an out to void the warranty. To catch the problem early would just mean that only a few shingles would be trashed and replaced, rather than the entire roof.


  27. #27
    Thomas Baker's Avatar
    Thomas Baker Guest

    Default Re: High nailing shingle failure

    For what it's worth...I worked on a project for a major University where the shingles had all been high nailed. A new roofing contractor was retained to "re-nail" the shingles in the correct manner. This involved carefully lifting the shingles (not an overwhelming task since most of those shingles too were not adhered @ the sealing strip). Any shingles that were damaged were replaced. It does appear that the remediation was successful and no problems have been reported.


  28. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Lansdale, PA
    Posts
    876

    Default Re: High nailing shingle failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Williams View Post
    Shingles on this house were high nailed, that is, secured well high of the self sealing strip. Looks like the wind has ripped many of the shingles off right through the nail heads. I am thinking complete replacement. Anyway chance this roof covering could be salvaged (resecured)?
    If they could not nail the shingles on properly then what able flashing details? Also, If the tabs cannot be lifted easily then the labor to nail them may be too high.


  29. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    2

    Default Re: High nailing shingle failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Williams View Post
    ...Anyway chance this roof covering could be salvaged (resecured)?
    Wearing my contractor hat: No it cannot be salvaged. Here's why: Using GAF Timberline architectural shingle installation specifications, the nails need to be applied "on the white line" which is where the shingles are double thick. This roof has too much shingle exposure. In your picture the nailing line of the shingle is exposed. It is not covered by the lapping shingle above. In order to nail the shingles correctly (salvage it), the nails will be exposed. Choices: Tear off and replace, or if allowed, shingle over existing shingles. Good call that the roof is not serviceable. As installed it will continue to be vulnerable to wind damage. Obviously it was installed by someone who did not read the installation instructions on the shingle bundles.


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •