Thread: Exposed Wood/Vulnerable Areas

Hi,
Sorry for the torrent of newbie questions from me , I hope it does not annoy anyone.

I recently went along on an inspection at this house which has exposed wood on a gable corner as well as under a downspout. The construction is new , less than 11 months and it does not look like any water damage that I have seen (but then I have not "seen" much yet). It is certainly in the right place to be damaged by water , its just the age and appearance that confuse me

As always I am just wondering if anyone could shed some light onto the cause/fix of this issue. How would you write this up and what would you recommend to the client?

Thanks for all of the help

Similar Threads:

• exposed roofing nails
• Wood Structural Panel Sheathing or Siding Used to Resist Combined Shear & Uplift
• Exposed service drop
• Exposed wood joist in return air
• Wood Burning Fireplace

Observe, Report, & Recommend

Observe- see a defect
Report- Report what you see
Recommend- Say what should be done.
DO NOT say HOW to make the correction

Originally Posted by Raghav Singh

Hi,
Sorry for the torrent of newbie questions from me , I hope it does not annoy anyone.

I recently went along on an inspection at this house which has exposed wood on a gable corner as well as under a downspout. The construction is new , less than 11 months and it does not look like any water damage that I have seen (but then I have not "seen" much yet). It is certainly in the right place to be damaged by water , its just the age and appearance that confuse me

As always I am just wondering if anyone could shed some light onto the cause/fix of this issue. How would you write this up and what would you recommend to the client?

Thanks for all of the help

It gets wet and then dries out. It gets wet and then dries out. It is dry rot. First off they should not have the wood trim or siding directly on the shingles as it will wick water and then dry out. In the end you can take it and crumble it. Unlike most I always use to seal the end or underside of the wood so it would take a serious amount longer for that to happen and I would hold it off the deck or shingles.

As you can see that fascia and siding is pretty old and it took decades to get to the deterioration point it is now. If it were off the deck/shingles it would not be as bad as it is now. If it were sealed properly so it could be sealed (painters cannot get to it once in place) then it would have lasted a lot longer.

I tell everyone in my reports the why's (if I know them) that made that rot or any other condition to happen. I have never written a report that just said that the ends of the fascia is rotted- fix it. The bottom of the siding is rotted- get it repaired.

If I see a return air filter sucked up into the HVAC I tell them that it is the reason the evaporator cool is so filthy and how much of an adverse affect it has on the efficiency and their wallet. This going into explanations is what my clients pay me for. They are paying for knowledge. I won't write a book on every item but there will be some extent of detail.

If I wrote reports like that I could do half hour reports on every home and probably an hour inspection. See rot, fix it. No reason to investigate anything and keep running thru the home.

A little edit here

As far as fixing the siding against the roof, it could be just cut back enough for some trim and a space from the roof in the end. Flashing under the siding and over that trim. As far as the fascia it will have to be cut back to where there is no more rot and preferably a concrete fiber trim like hardi-trim back in its place left slightly off the shingles as well. If leaving it off the shingles allows for insects or rodents to get into the attic then it is better to possibly have future rot and repair then allowing them into the attic. Mesh and screening could go behind the trim if you want to follow how you should do it as in an inch or two off the roof shingles. I would prefer to have to repair it a couple decades down the road and close up the hole.

I hope some of this helped

Thanks for the responses , it is incredibly helpful and helps to clarify what my position is. I see that home inspectors have a different philosophy on whether one should explain a defect intuitively or jump to "recommend (insert specialist here" inspect and repair [defect]) .

I would much rather go with the first as that is more in line with how I want to approach my job but I know that it is never that easy and if one is not careful about phrasing things one can easily end up in court because "the inspector said water stains were probably due to roof leaks and it turned out that a pipe in the wall had been leaking" or something along those lines.

I know this is the biggest purchase that some people will make in their lives and want to be as helpful as possible. At the same time I want to protect myself from frivolous litigation (if I make a genuine mistake , I expect to pay for it but not for trying to be helpful).

So it will be tough to find that balance at first but I am sure that I will figure it out eventually (hopefully the "easy" way but that may be wishful thinking). Thank you for the extremely helpful info.

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

Say what should be done.
DO NOT say HOW to make the correction

There is a rather large fuzzy line between those two.

Saying what should be done will, to some extent, say how to make the correction ... just not nail-by-nail self-help do-it-like-this directions.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

There is a rather large fuzzy line between those two.

Saying what should be done will, to some extent, say how to make the correction ... just not nail-by-nail self-help do-it-like-this directions.

Exactly Jerry. I was going to go back in and state that clearer but you already went there.

I am taking into considering the OP's apparent experience.
For the time being, I think that, "Fix It" might be better than an attempt to describe something in detail.
When experience and skill increase, then the report can be more detailed.

Also from one of your pictures it appears that the downspout elbow is also loose.

Originally Posted by Russ Garmon

Also from one of your pictures it appears that the downspout elbow is also loose.

Since you brought up the downspout.
It would be better for the downspout to be pointed DOWN the roof instead of ACROSS the roof.

additionally
The cables entering through the siding are to close to the roof deck, this will allow water to enter the wall, as well as the flashing (if present) has been damaged by drilling through it.
The cables should also have been sleeved where they enter, with drip loops.
Last, the cables are just laying on the roof, they should be secured to the siding.

There is no roof to wall transition with flashing and counter-flashing.

Mr Singh says it's 11 MONTHS old, Mr Menelly suggests it's decades old.

From the pics, I'd have to believe it's older than 1 year. Possibly the loose dwnspt is indicative of roof/siding/trim repair?
But if it is really only 11 months old, then a closer look is in order.
Doesn't really look like rodent damage, does look more like deterioration over time, but I'd definitely spend some extra time here, especially if I were told this is only 11 months old.

If I can't come to a logical, viable, sustainable conclusion/reason, I'd simply have to call out the damage and recommend repair so I don't get my t--t in a wringer.

Observations include siding too close to roofing, dwnspt needs redirection downhill, loose cables with fasteners needing sealing....where's the flashing?

I suspect that the roof shingles are 11 months old, not the house.

Flashing could/should be under the siding.
If so, the siding itself is part of the flashing system.

Since the siding goes to the roofing, flashing (if present) cannot be seen.

I would not state that there is or is not any flashing present, only that the presents and proper installation of flashing could not be confirmed due to improper installation of siding.

I think the first pic could be damage caused by a rodent trying to get into the attic.

Mr Cantrell may have hit on something I suspect: a reroof job that damaged the trim.

Trim/siding too close plus roofers in a hurry = oops!

'course we're all speculating here, only Mr Singh can ascertain that

I would say, It was noted that typically clearance is needed in these 2 location as to not have rapid water damage, I highly recommend having an applicable contractor evaluate and repair as needed.

Originally Posted by W. Craig McDougald

Mr Singh says it's 11 MONTHS old, Mr Menelly suggests it's decades old.

From the pics, I'd have to believe it's older than 1 year. Possibly the loose downspout is indicative of roof/siding/trim repair?
But if it is really only 11 months old, then a closer look is in order.
Doesn't really look like rodent damage, does look more like deterioration over time, but I'd definitely spend some extra time here, especially if I were told this is only 11 months old.

If I can't come to a logical, viable, sustainable conclusion/reason, I'd simply have to call out the damage and recommend repair so I don't get my t--t in a wringer.

Observations include siding too close to roofing, downspout needs redirection downhill, loose cables with fasteners needing sealing....where's the flashing?

The upper trim to me was the giveaway but of course I certainly could be wrong. Has a rodent or its cousin the squirrel been up there? If you look at the freeze trim against the home you can see something was gnawing at it.. The kick out trim for the drip edge told me or tells me, that it is older than a year as that is plain ans simple rot. For it to rot like that in a years under the edge of the shingles in the corner it would have to be older than that. The fascia with that rounded corner could have been rodents gnawing on in but looking at it closely, as blurry as it may be, that is definitely dry rot from getting wet and drying for a long period of time.

If you look further down the siding to me it appears they may have had a re roof because the siding looks like it was once butted up to with shingles and painted around or sealed against the shingles.

All speculation but I guess we have to go with the one year old construction because that is what the man said.

Of course, one year old, and the job was passed for inspection with the fascia and siding butted tight to the roof Job supper, city inspector, carpenter for that matter, all deemed this to be acceptable.

I would say it was an older home for that looks like masonite which hasn't been used here in almost two decades. First picture does look like chipped wood then water damage.
Raghav keep in the back of your mind to check cut ends such as vertical corner boards for the siding, roof trim boards, etc. Nobody paints the cut ends specially if it's close to the ground or roof.

Originally Posted by Mike Schulz

... that looks like masonite which hasn't been used here in almost two decades. ...

I think that is metal siding, not Masonite.

I lightened it a bit and it still looks like dry rot/gnawing

Thanks for all of the comments , sometimes what I learn on one thread here is worth hours of reading (in lieu of much needed experience I have to do what I can).

I really should have picked up on the fact that the house cannot be a year old and if it was then the problem is indicative of some very serious defect. I took the client at his word and may have misunderstood him (perhaps he was referring to the roofing , though we were not discussing that at the time) it doesn't really matter though , the evidence that it was an older construction was all around. I'll look into this

Rookie mistake , reminds that I have a very long road ahead and need much more training/experience before I can be a HI , thanks for the patience and suggestions, it goes a long way.

Seeing that it was brought up a few times that the downspout should be directed downwards, I would like to add that it should be extended down the roof and directed into the lower trough.

This is the front view of the house, I know that this issue has pretty much been hashed out but I just wanted to put this up in case it adds any useful information. The rot is on both corners of that middle gable and the downspout is behind the left gable.

I cropped out any numbers or specific info and since this is a fairly typical style in this area I thought it would be ok to put this picture up. If that is not the case I apologize and will not post front views again , thank you

Rick,

Look at the cut edge along the shingles. It's flaking. Ted you are correct. Raghav what type of material is the siding panels. Also when in doubt about the age of a home look inside a toilet tank. That is one place to find the age.

Originally Posted by Mike Schulz

Rick,

Look at the cut edge along the shingles. It's flaking. Ted you are correct. Raghav what type of material is the siding panels. Also when in doubt about the age of a home look inside a toilet tank. That is one place to find the age.

Hey Thanks for that great tip Mike! Never thought of that , sometimes when there are pull down ladders to an attic the date is stamped on the board (as you know) but that is another great alternative.

Unfortunately I don't know what material the siding was made of , I will ask the person who actually did the inspection to pull up the report and I will get back to you.

It appears you have some wood rot, but the exposed wood in the photo looks like you have a friendly squirrel trying to gain access to the attic. The small trim under the soffit also has some exposed (paint chewed off) wood.

One thing that definitely should be in the report: notification of a limitation to the inspection , explaining that:

1) Because the siding is in contact with the shingles (there is no "hold back") you cannot determine if the flashing of the roof to the wall is correct.

2) That this is a common location for leaks.

3) That often, such leaks are active only under certain weather conditions (for example strongly wind driven rain from a given direction), and that while you inspected at this location at the exterior and interior (if you didn't, you need to start doing this) for evidence of past or current leaks, and found none at the time of inspection, you cannot predict if, how often, or how severely this junction might leak under different conditions in the future.

4) Include a list of locations where such limitations are present, and at least one picture that demonstrates the nature of the limitation.

5) Explain to your clients during the inspection why you cannot fully inspect such locations, and prepare them for the fact that there may be future water intrusion.

Also, you might want to GOOGLE up some shingle installation instructions and learn how to inspect the flashings at such junctions, when visible. As you get better at the job you will learn how to evaluate such junctions more accurately, but in the meantime controlling client expectations, both verbally and in the report, can go a long way toward covering your exposure for what you don't yet know.

Also, you need boiler plate in your report to similarly handle the situation in which retrofit siding/window installations prevent complete inspection of the flashings and other installation details.

Otherwise, I can absolutely guarantee that if you are in this business in location where there is substantial rainfall, you will be getting callbacks from clients asking why you couldn't tell them there y would be leaks at such locations.

Originally Posted by Michael Thomas

One thing that definitely should be in the report: notification of a limitation to the inspection , explaining that:

1) Because the siding is in contact with the shingles (there is no "hold back") you cannot determine if the flashing of the roof to the wall is correct.

2) That this is a common location for leaks.

3) That often, such leaks are active only under certain weather conditions (for example strongly wind driven rain from a given direction), and that while you inspected at this location at the exterior and interior (if you didn't, you need to start doing this) for evidence of past or current leaks, and found none at the time of inspection, you cannot predict if, how often, or how severely this junction might leak under different conditions in the future.

4) Include a list of locations where such limitations are present, and at least one picture that demonstrates the nature of the limitation.

5) Explain to your clients during the inspection why you cannot fully inspect such locations, and prepare them for the fact that there may be future water intrusion.

Also, you might want to GOOGLE up some shingle installation instructions and learn how to inspect the flashings at such junctions, when visible. As you get better at the job you will learn how to evaluate such junctions more accurately, but in the meantime controlling client expectations, both verbally and in the report, can go a long way toward covering your exposure for what you don't yet know.

Also, you need boiler plate in your report to similarly handle the situation in which retrofit siding/window installations prevent complete inspection of the flashings and other installation details.

Otherwise, I can absolutely guarantee that if you are in this business in location where there is substantial rainfall, you will be getting callbacks from clients asking why you couldn't tell them there y would be leaks at such locations.

Thanks for these excellent points Mr.Thomas , I definitely would not want to give a client false expectations that if I mark something "inspected" it means that I am signing off on the efficacy of the system. I have already seen that there is alot of misunderstanding about the role/responsibilities of an HI and this is often the fault of both parties (at times the problem seems to be compounded by a third party)

When I fully understand the systems and limitations , I hope to be able to educate clients on the purpose and scope of a home inspection as well as any defects in the house, so that they don't get a false sense of security

Thanks again

Originally Posted by Mike Schulz

Also when in doubt about the age of a home look inside a toilet tank. That is one place to find the age.

"That is one place to find the age."

The age of the toilet, yes, but not necessarily the age of the house.

I too think it could be all rodent damage (sloppy roofer inclusive)

Originally Posted by Phil Brody

I too think it could be all rodent damage (sloppy roofer inclusive)

Its just that the damage is in areas where you would expect water damage as it could be "pooling" in those areas. At the same time these areas are also probably most vulnerable to rodent damage since they would be easier entry points for just about anything, than some other parts of the house

Rodents will chew just for the sake of chewing. Chipmunks relish plastic gas cans!

Unless the wood is quite old, I think chewing is likely...or possibly chewing which is baring the wood and promoting dry rot. The pattern of damage is more like chewing, plus it's not a place that collects water or even where you'd see a lot of flow, since it's near the peak and the shingles have at least a bit of an overhang (where's the drip edge? People use trim in place of drip edge?). Is Atlanta super wet? It's hard to even tell if the trim is flush with the shingles. When you go back, take more photos to show us. (When something is backlit like that, you can move camera a little so you see all dark stuff in the viewfinder [at the same distance], press the button part way, then move it back to center the stuff you're looking at. Most cameras are like that anyway.)

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

(where's the drip edge? People use trim in place of drip edge?)

That used to be done all the time. The trim was called shingle moulding. I guess it is still called shingle moulding in the lumber store but it isn't used for that a whole lot anymore.

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

Rodents will chew just for the sake of chewing. Chipmunks relish plastic gas cans!

Unless the wood is quite old, I think chewing is likely...or possibly chewing which is baring the wood and promoting dry rot. The pattern of damage is more like chewing, plus it's not a place that collects water or even where you'd see a lot of flow, since it's near the peak and the shingles have at least a bit of an overhang (where's the drip edge? People use trim in place of drip edge?). Is Atlanta super wet? It's hard to even tell if the trim is flush with the shingles. When you go back, take more photos to show us. (When something is backlit like that, you can move camera a little so you see all dark stuff in the viewfinder [at the same distance], press the button part way, then move it back to center the stuff you're looking at. Most cameras are like that anyway.)

I will certainly do that , I know these pictures are insufficient to tell enough of the story. Also thanks for the tip about improving pics when there is alot of backlight , I actually need to become a better photographer in general (among other things) before I can do HI's , it really is part of the job and makes for a better quality, aesthetically pleasing report.

Fulton and Dekalb counties have the tax records available online. More than likely the other surrounding counties do as well. You enter the address and can find out all kinds of data about the property including year built.

DeKalb County Tax Commissioner
Fulton County

You can look at the bushes in the picture and know immediately that house is more than 1 yr old. There are storm windows installed. New homes don't have storm windows.

The first picture is likely a combination of rot due to molding in direct contact with roof shingles and rodents gnawing. The siding looks more like masonite the way it is bubbled. Agree with Mike S. on the siding.

Originally Posted by Bruce Ramsey

Fulton and Dekalb counties have the tax records available online. More than likely the other surrounding counties do as well. You enter the address and can find out all kinds of data about the property including year built.

DeKalb County Tax Commissioner
Fulton County

You can look at the bushes in the picture and know immediately that house is more than 1 yr old. There are storm windows installed. New homes don't have storm windows.

The first picture is likely a combination of rot due to molding in direct contact with roof shingles and rodents gnawing. The siding looks more like masonite the way it is bubbled. Agree with Mike S. on the siding.

Thanks for the info and URL's. Never knew anything like that existed but there is some great info to be gotten this way , really appreciate you pointing me in the right direction.

Guys
Maybe I'm wrong, but the siding looks like metal to me.

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

Guys
Maybe I'm wrong, but the siding looks like metal to me.

I will get the report and post any relevant materials as soon as possible , thanks all for the hypothetical/ analysis of possibilities , in my case it is those that really help , even more than specific problem solving, in some cases.

I don't know if this matters for HI, but as an insurance surveyor I would write up the fact that the downspout near the front door doesn't direct water away from the foundation. There's a lot of roof draining there, and potential for water to collect and soak into that little patch of earth, or even flow into the garage if the driveway isn't steep enough. The downspout should really be on the other side of the door, with a long piece attached to drain it away from the house.

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

I don't know if this matters for HI, but as an insurance surveyor I would write up the fact that the downspout near the front door doesn't direct water away from the foundation. There's a lot of roof draining there, and potential for water to collect and soak into that little patch of earth, or even flow into the garage if the driveway isn't steep enough. The downspout should really be on the other side of the door, with a long piece attached to drain it away from the house.

Absolutely , I almost always recommend it as many houses do not have downspout extensions which efficiently direct the water away from the house , down grade , and to the next part of the system .

I generally recommend downspout extensions to get water atleast five feet from the house but also explain (purely informational) specifics depending on grading as to a possible length/configuration of each downspout which may make the entire system more efficient (while adding that I am not a drainage expert).

But , having seen a few older houses and the serious problems that they suffer from due to poor drainage systems , the idea which I try to communicate in new homes is simple fixes now to prevent serious problems later.

I have rarely found that simply following code on gutters/downspouts actually makes for an efficient system and have , just as rarely , seen splash guards which actually do anything , except maybe make it so that the problem is not critical , waste of money in my opinion which can be used to but the "black accordian" type downsput extensions , which if installed correctly and sensibly , working with the grade , can make the difference between an effective drainage system and one which is almost sure to cause problems down the line.

One last observation , is that when I drive up to a new house , the quality of drainage/waste system usually indicates the level effort and attention to detail I am in store for. When there is true thought put into it (extensions on AC condensate drains , which go far enough) I have found that the general quality of the house is superior.

Rick where you put your comments is where the siding looks like it's flaking. Back in the seventies when installed aluminum siding we installed the cut edge in "J" channel....I think......dang memory ain't what it was.....

J channel is still used to hide cut edges, though more often on vinyl siding these days than aluminum. It does look sort of like aluminum siding, but I agree that it's more likely something else based on depth of the holes and the flaking bits around them. Because of the ridges and apparent lack of seams (within the photos anyway), my guess would be a composite, molded in larger panels.

Originally Posted by Raghav Singh

One last observation , is that when I drive up to a new house , the quality of drainage/waste system usually indicates the level effort and attention to detail I am in store for. When there is true thought put into it (extensions on AC condensate drains , which go far enough) I have found that the general quality of the house is superior.

Just to clarify this , since obviously the work of probably one roofing contractor does not say anything about the rest of the systems , I guess its an indication that the builder is not coordinating "from his(or her) truck" . Just an observation and assumption , I'm sure I'll find plenty of exceptions to this.

I don't ever see aluminum siding anymore because vinyl is the preferred choice. Cost of metal is probably astronomical,. If the panels are metal why would they not trim out the soffit and fascia in metal, hence the wood in the first picture.