Results 1 to 30 of 30
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,049

    Default no starter on rake edge

    How critical is lack of a starter course on a rake edge? The new home pictured had only one piece of starter at the bottom edge, the rest did not have any. The house next door had starters the full length of the rake.

    Is there a code or manufactures installation error here?

    Similar Threads:
    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    Inspection Referral SOC

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Columbus GA
    Posts
    3,746

    Default Re: no starter on rake edge

    To my knowledge the rake edge does not require a starter strip.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,245

    Default Re: no starter on rake edge

    Do you mean drip edge along the rake instead of starter strip?

    The rake should also have drip edge installed.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,049

    Default Re: no starter on rake edge

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Do you mean drip edge along the rake instead of starter strip?

    The rake should also have drip edge installed.
    No, just wondering if the starter strip beneath the shingle course is required. The first picture shows a vertical starter strip at the bottom portion of the rake. The other two pics show the overlapped shingle edges without starter strip.

    In the case of this house, from my position on the ground, the drip edge is hidden from view. This was a 3 story all above grade. Too high to check for drip edge flashing.


  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    Posts
    780

    Default Re: no starter on rake edge

    That's the way it is normally. There's only a starter course along the bottom.

    Do not think of knocking out another person's brains because he differs in opinion from you. It would be as rational to knock yourself on the head because you differ from yourself ten years ago.
    - James Burgh, 1754.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,049

    Default Re: no starter on rake edge

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristi Silber View Post
    That's the way it is normally. There's only a starter course along the bottom.

    There appears to be debate about it either way. Most seem to agree its a good idea. See the following discussion.

    The Reason For Rake Starter Strip? - Roofing - Contractor Talk


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    Posts
    780

    Default Re: no starter on rake edge

    I dunno, maybe I should have said that as far as I know it's not abnormal. I thought some of their reasons for using a starter strip were kind of weak, but WDIK? Those guys have way more experience than I.

    Do not think of knocking out another person's brains because he differs in opinion from you. It would be as rational to knock yourself on the head because you differ from yourself ten years ago.
    - James Burgh, 1754.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Guelph,Ontario
    Posts
    169

    Default Re: no starter on rake edge

    The rake makes for a way more professional job,not required,but better if installed


  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,245

    Default Re: no starter on rake edge

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristi Silber View Post
    I thought some of their reasons for using a starter strip were kind of weak,
    I agree ... some of their reasons are quite weak, then combine that with *not* using drip edge up the rakes and those reasons get even weaker.

    I could maybe, sorta, see using starter strips up the rakes *in addition to* drip edge up the rakes, but there is *no excuse* for not using drip edge up the rakes.

    And if they sealed the shingles down to the drip edge and underlayment along the rakes like here in Florida, their reasons for using the starter strip are gone.

    I think it is mostly has to do with what several admit: 'that's they way they learned to do it', so they keep doing it that way.

    How many times do home inspectors find incorrect framing, electrical, plumbing, etc., which was caused by 'that's the way I learned to do it, so I've been doing it ever since'.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Oregon, USA
    Posts
    333

    Default Re: no starter on rake edge

    Quote Originally Posted by John Dirks Jr View Post
    In the case of this house, from my position on the ground, the drip edge is hidden from view. This was a 3 story all above grade. Too high to check for drip edge flashing.
    If you're too cheap to buy a decent extension ladder (with stand-offs), and regularly use it, then at least you should seriously consider investing in a good pair of binoculars. Fifty or sixty bucks will get you there.

    P.S. How do you inspect roofs when standing on the ground?


  11. #11
    Roofmaster 417's Avatar
    Roofmaster 417 Guest

    Default Re: no starter on rake edge

    Rake line starter strips help in several ways.First and the most important is water penetration prevention.

    When single shingles are used on rake lines without starters water can roll off the shingles and run under on to the decking beneath.Alot of homes without starters in time can develop decking rot which after long periods can also rot the fascia,trusses,wood soffit and about every other component that makes up the rake line and overhang.

    If no overhang is present I have also seen water penetration into the corners,window sills,walls on the interior.

    Drip edge serves a purpose but overall the drip edge isn't needed if proper overhang past the rake is allowed.(1")(Depending on code requirements/restrictions)Drip edge is required on the gulf coast and along the east coast in some regions.The reason that the drip edge is used is because of the potential for high velocity winds and the starters are sealed directly to the drip edge and shingles to the starters..Overhangs alone without drip edge in regions with high velocity winds (Hurricanes) will fail inspections because of the ability for those winds to create lift during storms.

    I went to Florida after they were hit with back to back hurricanes.They allow 1/4" overhang of the starters and shingles past the rake line.Anything more will result in a failed inspection by the building department.I could bore you with the FBC but I will save you a few more paragraphs.I enjoyed the strict regulations.It seperated the pro's from the hacks.

    Drip edge along the gutter line keeps the shingles from falling into the gutter.With no drip edge being used along the gutterline and using the 1"1/2" overhang the shingles take shape (Dropped) over the gutter posts/hangers etc.

    Starters also give the rake line some strength against updrafts/lift.

    Starters also provide a very clean appearance when looking under the rake line from the ground.Instead of seeing every individual shingle you see a solid straight line.

    I have used starters for years and will always use them.The typical rake line(Gable 2 Gable) is about 14'-20' on a single family home.So using 6 shingles up a rake line won't break the bank.Some guys think profitability when spending that extra $50 on that 2/3rd square.I feel that it is a sound investment.But that is my opinion.

    Sorry for the long post.I am notorious for being long winded. And Btw.,Tinner666 is one he** of a Slate and Metal roofer.

    Last edited by Roofmaster 417; 01-29-2012 at 08:57 PM.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    Posts
    780

    Default Re: no starter on rake edge

    Jerry had exactly the same reaction I did reading those posts, but I was too timid to say so (I know, me timid?!).

    Do not think of knocking out another person's brains because he differs in opinion from you. It would be as rational to knock yourself on the head because you differ from yourself ten years ago.
    - James Burgh, 1754.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    Posts
    780

    Default Re: no starter on rake edge

    Without drip edge what is to prevent water from seeping/getting blown under the shingles and tar paper (or I&W or anything along that edge)?

    Do not think of knocking out another person's brains because he differs in opinion from you. It would be as rational to knock yourself on the head because you differ from yourself ten years ago.
    - James Burgh, 1754.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,049

    Default Re: no starter on rake edge

    Quote Originally Posted by BridgeMan View Post
    If you're too cheap to buy a decent extension ladder (with stand-offs), and regularly use it, then at least you should seriously consider investing in a good pair of binoculars. Fifty or sixty bucks will get you there.

    P.S. How do you inspect roofs when standing on the ground?
    I have a 28 foot extension ladder and Cougar Paw roofing boots. I walk on way more roof surfaces than the majority of HI's. My 28 footer wasn't tall enough to reach the roof. I have binoculars and I use them along with zoom photography when I cannot safely access a roof to walk on it.

    What gives you impression that I'm unable to inspect a roof based on anything I said in this thread?


  15. #15
    Roofmaster 417's Avatar
    Roofmaster 417 Guest

    Default Re: no starter on rake edge

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristi Silber View Post
    Without drip edge what is to prevent water from seeping/getting blown under the shingles and tar paper (or I&W or anything along that edge)?
    The overhang.(how far past the rakeline the shingles exceed)


  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,245

    Default Re: no starter on rake edge

    Quote Originally Posted by Roofmaster 417 View Post
    When single shingles are used on rake lines without starters water can roll off the shingles and run under on to the decking beneath.
    That is what I am saying - not with drip edge sealed to the underlayment and the shingles sealed to the drip edge. Water is not going to run underneath the shingles. Being in high wind event country (South Florida, and Florida) we found that keeps the water out and keep the shingles down.

    I would agree *if* the shingles were installed as they are in other places in the country, but ... those other places would be better off sealing everything down than just trying to use starter strips to stop the water.

    It really is an easy solution to seal things down, and it really does work.

    Drip edge serves a purpose but overall the drip edge isn't needed if proper overhang past the rake is allowed.
    The drip is needed as the drip edge stops the wind driven rain from being driven in under the shingles, under the underlayment, or under the roof sheathing.

    I went to Florida after they were hit with back to back hurricanes. They allow 1/4" overhang of the starters and shingles past the rake line. Anything more will result in a failed inspection by the building department.
    Florida also requires everything to be sealed down, if you did that too then there would not be any problems at the rake.

    The problems are caused by, allowed by, not sealing the rakes down properly.

    Starters also give the rake line some strength against updrafts/lift.
    Again, not needed if you seal everything down.

    Sealing everything down solves all the problems you are trying to address with the starter strip, except that the starter strip does not really address those problems, sealing everything down does address all those problems.

    Starters also provide a very clean appearance when looking under the rake line from the ground.Instead of seeing every individual shingle you see a solid straight line.
    Again, not needed if you install drip edge and seal everything down, then trim the shingles off close to the drip edge ... yeah, if you hang the shingles over the edge to try to compensate for no drip edge and note sealing everything down - yeah, it will look weird.

    So far, you keep coming up for reason *not* to use starter strips but *instead to use drip edge and seal everything down*.

    And it is less work to use drip edge and seal everything down, and they you are not just trying to address those issues, you are actually addressing those issues.

    Not sure why one insists on 'trying to address' issues when those issues 'are addressed' with drip edge and sealing everything down?

    Oh well, to each their own.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,049

    Default Re: no starter on rake edge

    Here's the house. How does a single man get up there with a 28 footer? Not possible to snake the ladder through the house and onto the deck. Even if I could get the ladder hoisted to the deck on my own, the deck did not have enough depth to allow a safe angle on the ladder.

    It just ticks me when people make blind assumptions that someones efforts are not at least satisfactory when they don't know the facts.

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images

  18. #18
    Roofmaster 417's Avatar
    Roofmaster 417 Guest

    Default Re: no starter on rake edge

    Jerry not every area has the strict building codes and requirements as Florida does.The price per square in your area compensates for the extra labor and materials needed to abide by code.

    I will more than happy install every roof here according to the FBC.But my pricing would reflect the code.The customer is the deciding factor.If they want me to install according to FBC in Missouri I would.But the high velocity winds are not present as they are in Florida.


  19. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Oregon, USA
    Posts
    333

    Default Re: no starter on rake edge

    Quote Originally Posted by John Dirks Jr View Post
    Here's the house. How does a single man get up there with a 28 footer? Not possible to snake the ladder through the house and onto the deck. Even if I could get the ladder hoisted to the deck on my own, the deck did not have enough depth to allow a safe angle on the ladder.

    It just ticks me when people make blind assumptions that someones efforts are not at least satisfactory when they don't know the facts.
    Sorry for ticking you off, John, but I was just asking. And what, exactly, does your marital status ("single") have to do with how far up a ladder you go?

    But anyway, I still have to ask--standing on the highest (safe to stand on) rung of a 28-footer, with neck-strapped binoculars in hand (unless you're an extremely short fellow, your head would only be about 5' or 6' away from the rake, near the soffit), and you still can't see if there's a drip edge??

    Maybe you shouldn't be working yourself into such a hissy-fit about other people's "blindness." Or at least, consider getting in for an eye test at your earliest convenience.


  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,049

    Default Re: no starter on rake edge

    Quote Originally Posted by BridgeMan View Post
    Sorry for ticking you off, John, but I was just asking. And what, exactly, does your marital status ("single") have to do with how far up a ladder you go?

    But anyway, I still have to ask--standing on the highest (safe to stand on) rung of a 28-footer, with neck-strapped binoculars in hand (unless you're an extremely short fellow, your head would only be about 5' or 6' away from the rake, near the soffit), and you still can't see if there's a drip edge??

    Maybe you shouldn't be working yourself into such a hissy-fit about other people's "blindness." Or at least, consider getting in for an eye test at your earliest convenience.
    I meant a man working alone when I said single. So what's the correct grammar if I so mislead you?

    Nope, still cant see the drip edge from 5 feet away since its hidden by the 90 degree outward angle bend on the rake flashing. The only way to know for sure would be to get close enough to lift the edge of the shingle. On that house, a 28 footer won't do it.

    BTW, what good do binoculars do from 5 feet away?


  21. #21
    Mark Langerhans's Avatar
    Mark Langerhans Guest

    Default Re: no starter on rake edge

    The first thing I look at when evaluating a roof installation is the rake cut. If the rake detail is clean, you can bet the rest of the installation will follow suite.


  22. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Guelph,Ontario
    Posts
    169

    Default Re: no starter on rake edge

    John,some people do not read very well,bringing up marital status ,when checking the rake makes no sense at all. Keep up your good work and keep posting.


  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,049

    Default Re: no starter on rake edge

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Janssen View Post
    John,some people do not read very well,bringing up marital status ,when checking the rake makes no sense at all. Keep up your good work and keep posting.
    Like water on a ducks back for me really. Come to think of it, BridgeMan brought up drip edge and I never even inquired about it. I was asking about starter strips at the rake edge. Whatever.....

    To be real, if I deserve criticism, let me have it. If I can't hack it in here, I shouldn't be spouting it out there. No matter where I am, if I believe my position is defensible, I'll defend it.


  24. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Oregon, USA
    Posts
    333

    Default Re: no starter on rake edge

    Quote Originally Posted by John Dirks Jr View Post
    Come to think of it, BridgeMan brought up drip edge and I never even inquired about it.
    Sorry, John, but I did not bring up drip edges. Check out Post No. 4.

    That's OK, I'd like to extend an olive branch. I apologize for coming across as a turd. Can I buy you a brewski sometime?


  25. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Southern Vancouver Island
    Posts
    4,546

    Default Re: no starter on rake edge

    John, even though this wasn't your question, judging from your pics 2+3, I think I see drip edge flashings, that is the narrow overhanging strip there, I think. Like a T-shaped flashing strip.
    You are right to be concerned about water getting in along that rake, due to the no overhang, saltbox design. That style doesn't survive well out here on the Wet coast.

    BTW, for a guy that's too cheap to buy a ladder, you got some decent pictures there.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Caledon, Ontario
    Posts
    5,005

    Default Re: no starter on rake edge

    This is another discussion in which one method is being portrayed as being improper.

    There is nothing wrong with using a starter strip.


  27. #27
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,049

    Default Re: no starter on rake edge

    Quote Originally Posted by BridgeMan View Post
    Sorry, John, but I did not bring up drip edges. Check out Post No. 4.

    That's OK, I'd like to extend an olive branch. I apologize for coming across as a turd. Can I buy you a brewski sometime?
    BridgeMan,

    A bit of discourse is a good thing now and then. We kept it civil so we did ok. No harm done. Peace brother.


  28. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,049

    Default Re: no starter on rake edge

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    John, even though this wasn't your question, judging from your pics 2+3, I think I see drip edge flashings, that is the narrow overhanging strip there, I think. Like a T-shaped flashing strip.
    You are right to be concerned about water getting in along that rake, due to the no overhang, saltbox design. That style doesn't survive well out here on the Wet coast.

    BTW, for a guy that's too cheap to buy a ladder, you got some decent pictures there.
    John,

    Many times they bend the rake flashing at a 90 degree at the upper edge. It makes it look like a drip edge of sorts when it's really not. The bend does help support the shingle overhang and helps prevent the rake flashing from bulging out which adds to the appearance quality. However, calling that bend a drip edge flashing is not something I'm ready to conclude.


  29. #29
    Roofmaster 417's Avatar
    Roofmaster 417 Guest

    Default Re: no starter on rake edge

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck;quote

    So far, you keep coming up for reason *not* to use starter strips but *instead to use drip edge and seal everything down*.

    And it is less work to use drip edge and seal everything down,

    .
    Hey Jerry.,are you serious?.,I use starters and drip edge.When did I ever post anything saying that starters should not be used?.,How could you have come to that conclusion ? Read those statements a couple times and see what you think.


    It is easier? Have you personally installed a complete roof from start to finish according to florida building code requirements?.,

    Btw.,The pix that John posted are not of drip edge.They are of fascia wrap with the 1" bend acting as the drip lip.Their is no attachment of the metal to the roof deck.

    I have always though if you are inspecting something then sometimes it is a good idea to actually be involved in what you are inspecting.

    Last edited by Roofmaster 417; 01-31-2012 at 09:29 AM.

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Las Vegas, NV
    Posts
    222

    Default Re: no starter on rake edge

    Drip edges on rake edges are recommended by at least one mfg. GAF. However, they state in their installation instructions that the shingle lap past a drip edge should not exceed 3/4" or the shingles will bend and break off or be caught by the wind.

    It appears the shingle lap over the roof edge in the OP is excessive to say the least.

    Attached Files Attached Files
    Beacon Inspection Services
    Proudly Serving the Greater Henderson and Las Vegas Valley Area in Southern Nevada!
    Like Beacon On Facebook

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •