Thread: Roof installed on top of older roof ?

That title says it all ?

The client is saying that this roof was done by an expert by the ex owner yet he doesnt have a bill.

If you enlarge the second picture, you could clearly see "what is looks to me" like new shingles (blue) installed on top of old ones (brown).

The client is saying that its normal because thats how experts do, they just double the layers on the edge.

I knew that you must double the layer at the very bottom of a roof but not on the side of a slope.

Oh and by the way, the roof was done in 2007 and a lot of shingles are slighlty cupping and curling.

Ventilation is good by the way.

Do you guys think its a proprer installation or not ? Was the new roof installed on old one ?

Thanks for your help.

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Originally Posted by Christian Tag

That title says it all ?

The client is saying that this roof was done by an expert by the ex owner yet he doesnt have a bill.

If you enlarge the second picture, you could clearly see "what is looks to me" like new shingles (blue) installed on top of old ones (brown).

The client is saying that its normal because thats how experts do, they just double the layers on the edge.

I knew that you must double the layer at the very bottom of a roof but not on the side of a slope.

Oh and by the way, the roof was done in 2007 and a lot of shingles are slighlty cupping and curling.

Ventilation is good by the way.

Do you guys think its a proprer installation or not ? Was the new roof installed on old one ?

Thanks for your help.

No, not installed correctly.
I do not think the bottom shingles are from the old roof, but are new shingles turned around as a starter course.
If this is so, it is incorrect.
The starter course should have the tabs cut off so the glue strip is at the lower edge (or use starter course shingles). This is to keep the top shingle from lifting in the wind.
As for a starter course of shingles on the rake side, good to do, but not required (in most areas).

That is all newer shingles I think, brown starter course across the bottom and brown 3-tab shingles laid lengthwise up the rake. There are not many roofers that will actually cut the tabs off of their starter course, even tho that is what the instructions often call for. In a high wind area, they might glue the edges down with a few dabs of roof gum.

I don't know why the shingles are curling.

That chimney flashing looks wrong. There should be a gap between where the shingles stop and the chimney pipe starts, and not a bunch of tar smeared on the pipe.

Also
When you say curling, if you mean at the edge, caused by to much shingle overhang. Not desirable, but not really a problem.

These are regular 3 tab shingles, just turned around.
The color on the top of a 3 tab is (almost) never the same as the color on the tab portion.

If it weren't for the other photos showing the color of the shingles above the tabs, I would agree that the second photo does look like there are two layers there. Are the browns the same color?

I don't see much curling or cupping in your photos.

When I roof I don't cut off the tabs for the starter course. With drip edge and gutters there's not much in the way of overhang anyway.

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

When I roof I don't cut off the tabs for the starter course. With drip edge and gutters there's not much in the way of overhang anyway.

What keeps the shingle tabs glued down if you don't use a proper starter course? The ONLY way to properly install the first course is with pre-made starter strips or cutting the tabs off so the tar strip and nails are placed at the edge of the roof. This pertains to standard three tab shingles like those shown.

Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall

What keeps the shingle tabs glued down if you don't use a proper starter course? The ONLY way to properly install the first course is with pre-made starter strips or cutting the tabs off so the tar strip and nails are placed at the edge of the roof. This pertains to standard three tab shingles like those shown.

What keeps shingle tabs glued down anywhere on a roof? How does a glued starter strips help keep the tabs on top of it down? (EDIT: whoops, that last was a dumb question, written late late, not thinking clearly!)

Nails placed at the edge of the roof? Not what I'd do. I don't know, upside down shingles as a starter course seems to work around here. To me it doesn't make any sense to cut off the tabs because you just about halve the width of the starter strip.

I learned from my uncle, and he's done many a roof in his 30 years in construction. They seem to hold up fine.

Thank you everyone for your quick help !

Best to contact your AHJ, but multiple layers are allowed, unless current codes have stopped the practice. In my area I believe up to three before a complete tear-off is mandated.

Perhaps an underside shot of the 2nd pic would show more detail leading to 2 layers. Going with what I can see based on that pic I would say that there is 2 layers, or for some reason they ran the side edges like a starter row with the shingles upside down but on a verticle(I would never). I am basing this on the lump about a tab or so off the edge. I would make note of the downspout from one roof to the next shown in the first pic. I'm not sure the exact dimensions but a general rule I use is one per 20' of gutter.

Not commenting on hand-model abilities, but if you keep bending 3-tabs like that on inspections, eventually you're going to get to a brittle roof area where you'll be breaking shingles on a home. Especially a cool or cold roof. All those pictures of your hands bending back shiingle tabs from the corners will come back to haunt you.

Use a straight blade to check shingles. Using same to lift with that hand to photograph.

You really shouldn't be using your fingers like that and curling back shingle tabs bending back like that from a corner, unless you want to break the corner off.

Not to mention the metal salts, fungicides, bird crap, and all the other nasties you don't need to be touching and transfering to your camera (which of course gets near your EYES.

The overall shingling looks just a tiny bit over exposed. The additional curling could be due to someone else having curled/bent back tabs already exposed shingles with their hands and curling them back not just lifting them up with a flat bar during a cool period, they didn't/couldn't settle and reseal before pollen, dirt, etc. blew in and hazed the stick strip and now they're permanently unfixed. Otherwise overexposed 3-tabs will tend to lift up. and not recover because windblown, washed, debris (grains washing off, dirt, etc.) start to collect under and get caught in the bonding strip and they don't recover. Some roof adhesive/cement and a roller might help.

J.K.'s right about the vent too.

Just a possibility. Wicked on the thicker shingling systems. Get a flat bar, japan bar, big flat screw driver, a stiff putty knife, to LIFT, but not your fingers, bending corners back, please.

Where the asphalt shingles overhang the drip edge by much more than a 1/4 inch they are destined for failure. When they crack and/or break off, the crack or break will more than likely be above or inside the drip edge line. the siding should not be in contact with the roof surface. The install instructions are on every package.

Originally Posted by Christian Tag

That title says it all ?

The client is saying that this roof was done by an expert by the ex owner yet he doesnt have a bill.

If you enlarge the second picture, you could clearly see "what is looks to me" like new shingles (blue) installed on top of old ones (brown).

The client is saying that its normal because thats how experts do, they just double the layers on the edge.

I knew that you must double the layer at the very bottom of a roof but not on the side of a slope.

Oh and by the way, the roof was done in 2007 and a lot of shingles are slighlty cupping and curling.

Ventilation is good by the way.

Do you guys think its a proprer installation or not ? Was the new roof installed on old one ?

Thanks for your help.

Gentlemen,

If you follow the manufactures recommended installation procedures, you cut the bottom tabs off the shingle and install the starter row in the same position as all of the shingles would be installed. This puts the tack/tar strip at the bottom of the roof to keep the wind from lifting the first row of shingles. The underlaying shingle going up the rake of the roof is a wast of time, not called for, or recommended by the manufacture.

The wall above the roof appears to be incorrectly flashed as each row of shingles is required to have a step flashing installed. Due to the fact that this is a replacement roof the step flashings would be visible if correctly installed.

The metal chimney is incorrectly flashed and appears to be too close the wall to allow water to travel between the wall and chimney. A custom made cricket type, flashing combo should be installed to ensure a water tight seal for large pipes and metal chimneys of this nature.

Originally Posted by Garry Blankenship

Best to contact your AHJ, but multiple layers are allowed, unless current codes have stopped the practice. In my area I believe up to three before a complete tear-off is mandated.

In MN a complete tear off is required now before roofing in most of the state due to weight. And multiple layers voids some shingle warranties.
A three tab shingle reversed around serves no purpose but a waste of money. The only way a three tab would work reversed is if it had the tabs cut off. A starter strip on the eave is designed to adhere the tabs of the first course to the roof, and nothing more. The reason they are used on the rakes is to adhere the end cuts and increase the wind warranty from 110mph to 130mph.

Is the roof installed properly? NO
Is it done like this all the time?YES (by the inexperienced weekend roofer)

A three tab shingle reversed around serves no purpose but a waste of money. The only way a three tab would work reversed is if it had the tabs cut off. A starter strip on the eave is designed to adhere the tabs of the first course to the roof, and nothing more. The reason they are used on the rakes is to adhere the end cuts and increase the wind warranty from 110mph to 130mph.

I'm willing to admit that not cutting the tabs off for the starter course is not ideal, but there's still a purpose to putting down a layer before starting the visible shingling. There have to be shingles under the first regular course because of the slots between the tabs.

I've looked at a few installation instructions online, and none of them suggested a layer of starter shingles up the rake. Where do you get your warranty info?

The wall above the roof appears to be incorrectly flashed as each row of shingles is required to have a step flashing installed. Due to the fact that this is a replacement roof the step flashings would be visible if correctly installed.

You wouldn't see the flashing because the siding is flush with the shingles.

A custom made cricket type, flashing combo should be installed to ensure a water tight seal for large pipes and metal chimneys of this nature.

Factory made chimneys have factory made flashing accessories. You shouldn't have to get anything custom made, and I don't see a reason for a cricket. It's true that this one doesn't look properly flashed.

Another problem with this job is there's too much reveal on some of the courses. The tops of the slots shouldn't show.

Where the asphalt shingles overhang the drip edge by much more than a 1/4 inch they are destined for failure.

Installation instructions I've looked at say the overhang should be 3/8" or 1/2".

Several states have now mandated that roof shingles must be removed before installing a new roof. Most are in snow zones and have to do with having too much weight on the sheathing and rafters.

Andrew Constantine
Charlotte Home Inspections
York County, SC Home Inspector

[QUOTE=Kristi Silber;196673]I'm willing to admit that not cutting the tabs off for the starter course is not ideal, but there's still a purpose to putting down a layer before starting the visible shingling. There have to be shingles under the first regular course because of the slots between the tabs.

I've looked at a few installation instructions online, and none of them suggested a layer of starter shingles up the rake. Where do you get your warranty info?


You wouldn't see the flashing because the siding is flush with the shingles





Factory made chimneys have factory made flashing accessories. You shouldn't have to get anything custom made, and I don't see a reason for a cricket. It's true that this one doesn't look properly flashed.

Another problem with this job is there's too much reveal on some of the courses. The tops of the slots shouldn't show.



Installation instructions I've looked at say the overhang should be 3/8" or 1/2".

CERTAINTEED

Huh. That's one of the brands I looked at. No mention of a shingle starter course on the rake.
http://www.certainteed.com/resources/XT30Install.pdf

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

Huh. That's one of the brands I looked at. No mention of a shingle starter course on the rake.
http://www.certainteed.com/resources/XT30Install.pdf

As I stated it increases WARRANTY. So if you look at the CERTAINTEED warranty you will see what I am quoting.

Originally Posted by Paul Phillips

As I stated it increases WARRANTY. So if you look at the CERTAINTEED warranty you will see what I am quoting.

I wasn't doubting you, it just seems odd that they don't mention anything about it in the instructions. Maybe because it only applies to their 30 year 3-tab shingle and architectural shingle lines.

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

I'm willing to admit that not cutting the tabs off for the starter course is not ideal

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

Another problem with this job is there's too much reveal on some of the courses. The tops of the slots shouldn't show.

That's called being "overexposed" and it was already pointed out, four posts earlier. Its not "another" problem.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

The overall shingling looks just a tiny bit over exposed.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

overexposed 3-tabs will tend to lift up. and not recover because windblown, washed, debris (grains washing off, dirt, etc.) start to collect under and get caught in the bonding strip and they don't recover. Some roof adhesive/cement and a roller might help.

P.S. The OP is in Canada.

Is there any evidence of a drip edge having been installed? I can't tell if there is or not. My guess is that there are no drip edges installed and the original shingles (brown) as well as the new shingles (blue) were installed "long" to compensate for the lack of a drip edge. We all know that is not the correct procedure to use, but many builders are doing it to save a penny here and there in there building costs.

Cutting off tabs for starter course is the right way to do it. Inverting shingles is improper and a sure sign your roofer is not a professional. A pro keeps abreast of manufacturers instructions as things change. Installing by manufacturers instructions is only way so as not to void warranty. Inverted starter course is old school and not cool. Some roofers have been doing it for decades and are now doing it wrong.

Oh, please..."a sure sign your roofer is not a professional"? "...inexperienced weekend roofer"? My uncle has been a builder for 30 years and has done hundreds of roofs. He is very well regarded by his clients, and believe me, is very particular about doing a job right. He's never advertised, doesn't come cheap, and still gets plenty of work.

I asked him what he thought of our discussion. His response:

"I have never seen damage due to wind uplift which is why I use upside down shingles (three tab that is). I understand the theory about cutting off but working in the field teaches one lessons about what is really needed. I have found that having what is a full double layer of shingles nailed in the middle as the first course has never failed me - it would take a lot of wind to pull that up."

And think about it. The edge is protected from wind updraft by drip edge and almost always by a gutter. The tabs in the body of the roof aren't much more protected by wind, yet they don't get additional adhesive. Ridge caps are the most likely to catch wind. How often is a shingle warranty used? You'd have to show there was a manufacturing defect. There was a batch of Certainteed shingles a few years back that had problems, but it's usually the insurance companies that shell out the cash when storms come (around here, anyway; maybe it's different elsewhere).

I understand what you all are saying, but you needn't call those who do things differently "unprofessional" when they choose a way that based on a lot of experience they believe to be just as good. Even if you're right, this holier-than-thou attitude is irritating and unfounded.

Is this the type of thing HIs warn their clients about - the roofer didn't cut the tabs off - even if there's no damage?

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

Oh, please..."a sure sign your roofer is not a professional"? "...inexperienced weekend roofer"? My uncle has been a builder for 30 years and has done hundreds of roofs. He is very well regarded by his clients, and believe me, is very particular about doing a job right. He's never advertised, doesn't come cheap, and still gets plenty of work.

I asked him what he thought of our discussion. His response:

"I have never seen damage due to wind uplift which is why I use upside down shingles (three tab that is). I understand the theory about cutting off but working in the field teaches one lessons about what is really needed. I have found that having what is a full double layer of shingles nailed in the middle as the first course has never failed me - it would take a lot of wind to pull that up."

And think about it. The edge is protected from wind updraft by drip edge and almost always by a gutter. The tabs in the body of the roof aren't much more protected by wind, yet they don't get additional adhesive. Ridge caps are the most likely to catch wind. How often is a shingle warranty used? You'd have to show there was a manufacturing defect. There was a batch of Certainteed shingles a few years back that had problems, but it's usually the insurance companies that shell out the cash when storms come (around here, anyway; maybe it's different elsewhere).

I understand what you all are saying, but you needn't call those who do things differently "unprofessional" when they choose a way that based on a lot of experience they believe to be just as good. Even if you're right, this holier-than-thou attitude is irritating and unfounded.

Is this the type of thing HIs warn their clients about - the roofer didn't cut the tabs off - even if there's no damage?

.
If it's Not Installed per Manufactures Installation Instructions The Warranty is Void.
* if, when a Warranty Issue Arises will you he step up and $ pay ?
** Yes If The Manufactures Warranties are not enforceable The Client Needs to Know about the possible cost.
.

Jeepers! Talk about opening a can of worms... I am judging by the second picture which clearly shows a brown edge. I see no overlap, "really curious why there is no overlap", and judging by this would believe that there is not another layer. This is my "Opinion" without straying from the question pointing out other issues.

Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

.
If it's Not Installed per Manufactures Installation Instructions The Warranty is Void.
* if, when a Warranty Issue Arises will you he step up and $ pay ?
** Yes If The Manufactures Warranties are not enforceable The Client Needs to Know about the possible cost.
.

Not necessarily the case, depends on the manufacturer. "Even if your shingles or accessories were not properly installed according to GAF’s application instructions or to standard good roofing practices, this Limited Warranty remains in effect."
(See here for GAF's warranty info. Interestingly, GAF starter strips are not covered by warranty, although their instructions say to use them.)

That's for the Limited Warranty, which doesn't cover labor, but my uncle warrants his labor for 10 years (longer than some manufacturer warranties covering labor). He can afford to, his roofs almost never have problems.

Many things can void a shingle warranty: there hasn't been enough warm weather for them to seal properly; the attic doesn't have good enough ventilation; the house has settled; the shingles were installed when someone else owned the house; ice dams; too much foot traffic; "acts of God".... Sometimes the warranty against blow-offs ends before the shingle warranty does. And even if everything is installed according to directions and nothing voids the warranty, if you can't prove a manufacturing defect you may be SOL anyway.

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

Not necessarily the case, depends on the manufacturer. "Even if your shingles or accessories were not properly installed according to GAF’s application instructions or to standard good roofing practices, this Limited Warranty remains in effect."
(See here for GAF's warranty info. Interestingly, GAF starter strips are not covered by warranty, although their instructions say to use them.)

That's for the Limited Warranty, which doesn't cover labor, but my uncle warrants his labor for 10 years (longer than some manufacturer warranties covering labor). He can afford to, his roofs almost never have problems.

Many things can void a shingle warranty: there hasn't been enough warm weather for them to seal properly; the attic doesn't have good enough ventilation; the house has settled; the shingles were installed when someone else owned the house; ice dams; too much foot traffic; "acts of God".... Sometimes the warranty against blow-offs ends before the shingle warranty does. And even if everything is installed according to directions and nothing voids the warranty, if you can't prove a manufacturing defect you may be SOL anyway.

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I'm sure your Uncle is a wonderful man. That still has no bearing on what a Home Inspector should report.
.

You're missing the point, but nevermind.

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

You're missing the point, but nevermind.

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Your Welcome.
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Kristi I am with you. Every roofing company I know of since the 70's has used 3 tab shingles in the manner depicted in the pictures. Except for the rakes. The starter course was designed for filling the "key" slots. Cutting of the tabs so the first course adheres to it doesn't make sense unless you tar the starter course to the roof under layment. If you don't you then have two lifting in the wind if you believe that theory. I have never seen in my career the first course blow off because it was not sealed to the starter. Hurricanes another story but the tar strip won't help that either. I'm sure the tar strip is a better method in some aspects but around here it's not enforced just like drip edge is not enforced or gutters for that matter.

The starter on the rake was introduced to me by the Mexicans in the early 90's because they could cut there shingles to the straight starter without having to use a chalk line. They would run the full length of the starter first and as they worked up the rake they would cut each shingle individual as they went. Me I'm old school and would pop a line from top to bottom and never used a starter on the rake.

Now if I was going to roof a house today I would probably fulfill the tar strip starter. Would I call out a house that did not have it 5 -10- 15 or more years ago. No

Thanks, Mike! It's nice to have someone chime in who takes a practical view of these things. It's hard standing up to the hordes alone sometimes. I thought this comment summed up the others' well: "Some roofers have been doing it for decades and are now doing it wrong." As if suddenly the rules had changed, and what worked for decades was now totally unacceptable.

I noticed that no one said they'd seen problems with the first course tabs blowing off while the rest of the roof remained sound because someone roofed "old school." Photos, anyone?

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

Thanks, Mike! It's nice to have someone chime in who takes a practical view of these things. It's hard standing up to the hordes alone sometimes. I thought this comment summed up the others' well: "Some roofers have been doing it for decades and are now doing it wrong." As if suddenly the rules had changed, and what worked for decades was now totally unacceptable.

I noticed that no one said they'd seen problems with the first course tabs blowing off while the rest of the roof remained sound because someone roofed "old school." Photos, anyone?

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I'm a Fan of Lead Based Paint.
Seen many 60 year old double pane windows No Rot of any kind . No Infestation of Any Kind. No Water Damage of any kind.

I like the Protective Properties of Chlordane.

Don't care much for Arch Fault Outlets or R410-A.
*HI Report is not a place for my personal feeling .
.

Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

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I'm a Fan of Lead Based Paint.
.

That explains it. Eat a lot of it as a boy, did you?

Kristi retract my statement. I forgot that the old method of laying starter strips is a health hazard.

Originally Posted by Mike Schulz

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Kristi retract my statement. I forgot that the old method of laying starter strips is a health hazard.

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No But it is against " The Manufactures Installation Instructions."

Were you also a Plumbers Helper ?
.

Kristi,

Not to nit pick, but I have seen sections of roofs blown off due to improper starter course. I live in a mountainous area and every year we get spring and fall winds that come out of the valleys and destroy roofs.

And I see a lot of "experienced" roofers who do not change their practices as they should.

If you every been in a home that has large deck roof overhang you can hear the wind lifting on the home.

So this maybe a condition you do not see in your area but it does happen.

I recommend to my clients to high wind nail their roof when they replace them.

Don, that's not nitpicking, that's adding concrete evidence to the discussion, and I appreciate it. I can certainly understand how there could be regional variation. I wonder if the cooler, shorter summers in mountainous areas (or in more northerly climes) might also play a role in how well the shingles seal.

I guess if I were an HI, I would look at the roof as a whole. If is was a moderate pitch, everything else looked nice and professional and the tabs had sealed properly, but I somehow noticed that the starter course was upside-down shingles, I wouldn't say anything because it doesn't seem to be an issue around here. I know there's the warranty concern, but my take on that is that there are many things that could void the warranty and because it would be necessary to show a manufacturing defect, a claim would be tough to make anyway. Maybe that's the wrong attitude, I don't know.

Kristi,

Unfortunately I see a lot of poor practices from so called "professional" roofers.

It seems that many of the trades have lost many of "those guys" who would keep up on stuff and were true pros.

At least in my area the best trades people tend to be electricians and plumbers but there are some shoddy one out there also.

My observation is that with the market pressure to provide more glitz per square foot dollar they cut way too many corners on the fundamentals of the construction.

Now compound that with the use of more composite materials we are settings these home up to fail in a very short time frame.

Siding and trim application is almost never done correctly. We live in a fairly arid climate that can be forgiving and yet I see failure of these materials in way too short of a time period.

I agree completely. I think I'd rather buy a well-maintained house built in the 1920s than one built in the last ten years. I suspect another part of the problem besides those you mention is that there are often different crews to do each of phase of construction. Each has to deal with the errors made by previous crews, and there's less sense of pride in the finished product. This is especially problematic when it comes to something like EIFS, since the steps that come before the actual application are vital in ensuring its success. And everything is about speed, less about craftsmanship. I feel fortunate that I was trained by a single person who did virtually everything (usually working solo), and is very knowledgeable and conscientious.

The client is saying that its normal because thats how experts do, they just double the layers on the edge.
In terms of the double edge hanging off the end and curling into the gutter... This is true here in QC and Montreal area a lot of roofers do this instead of the standard starter course as recommended in the installation manual... I personally do not like it.... somehow roofers think this does a better job of water and ice getting under the first row of shingles... have yet to see if this is true,


Do you guys think its a proprer installation or not ? Was the new roof installed on old one ?
Shingles should never be installed over older layer... not done adds weight and will decrease the life of the shingle... shingles were not designed to be laid over the old ones.... had a roofer once telll me that the old worn shingles did as good or better job than new felt paper or membrane,,,anyhow good ventilation or not... its wrong... manufacturer's instructions superceed code or any other requirement... and have yet to see one manufacturer who recommends laying new shingles over old... besides the fact that it will nullify any warranty.