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  1. #1
    Matt Hawley's Avatar
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    Default Tile Roof Help Please

    Todays home was built in 2006. The hip and ridge tiles appear to be rake tiles because of the holes on the side. Should they all be replaced with ridge tiles?

    Many of the tiles along the hip and ridges are very loose, I could just pick them up. They were secured with mortar only. Are the hip and ridge tiles required to be secured with a fatener as well.

    There are also several exposed fasteners in random locations.

    My main question is if the hip and ridge tiles are rake tiles, should they ALL be replaced and should the hip and ridge tiles be secured with a fatener and not just mortar? The home is 5,000 sq-ft and there are a bunch of them this way. This was a home warranty inspection. I just want to make sure I call it out correctly.

    Thanks in advance guys.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Tile Roof Help Please

    Matt you should have your tile roof specialist out there for the real goods. Do what is best for your client even if it brings your own limits into view. Your clients will respect you for that. That roof looks like ---- with a capitol S


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Tile Roof Help Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Hawley View Post
    Todays home was built in 2006. The hip and ridge tiles appear to be rake tiles because of the holes on the side. Should they all be replaced with ridge tiles?
    Yes.

    Many of the tiles along the hip and ridges are very loose, I could just pick them up. They were secured with mortar only. Are the hip and ridge tiles required to be secured with a fatener as well.
    Or with an approved adhesive and a fastener.

    There are also several exposed fasteners in random locations.
    You mean as in the first photo? That indicates insufficient headlap.

    My main question is if the hip and ridge tiles are rake tiles, should they ALL be replaced and should the hip and ridge tiles be secured with a fatener and not just mortar? The home is 5,000 sq-ft and there are a bunch of them this way.
    Yes ... with one possible exception ... if the roofer produces product approval and manufacturer's installation instructions which state otherwise, then those should state how the tiles are attached to the roof and what is used to seal those unused holes.

    This was a home warranty inspection. I just want to make sure I call it out correctly.
    Call it out with references to the manufacturer's installation instructions, which were not available, including statement to the effect that your statements are based on general tile roof installation requirements, which would be applicable unless the product approval AND manufacturer's installation instructions state differently (I doubt they do).

    That way, you have described what you found, referenced it to standard tile roof practices, and told them to produce the product approval and manufacturer's installation instructions AND THOSE THINGS *WILL* state how that roof is to be installed, and, if not installed in accordance with those things (product approval and installation instructions), the roof may need to be replaced.

    Now, it is not you they are debating, it is the "product approval" and the "manufacturer's installation instructions". You know, those things the roofer SHOULD KNOW ALREADY.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  4. #4
    Matt Hawley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tile Roof Help Please

    Jerry,

    You are the MAN!! Thank you very much for your reply.

    One more question. You mentioned the ridge shingles could be installed with mortar OR an approved adheisive. If they are installed with either or, are they required to still have a fastener securing them? The hip and ridge shingles on this home did not have ANY fasteners securing them.

    Thanks again


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Tile Roof Help Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Hawley View Post
    the ridge shingles could be installed with mortar OR an approved adheisive.
    Actually, mortar is an 'adhesive' in that use, it's just separated from foam and other adhesives due to the vast differences in their properties, and the fact that mortar fails to bond at a relatively high rate when not done precisely, exactly, correctly, the right way.

    If they are installed with either or, are they required to still have a fastener securing them?
    That's the harder part, but basically - yes.

    The newer code (which may apply, probably applies to that house) requires a ridge nailer, either wood or sheet metal. You've probably seen them being installed on newer roofs. Their sole purpose is to provide an anchor base for those fasteners for the hip and ridge tiles.

    The hip and ridge shingles on this home did not have ANY fasteners securing them.
    My guess would be that the fasteners *are* "required", but that the AHJ in your area is not yet, or was not then, aware of it. That does not make it "right", it just makes it "harder to get it done right" after the fact.

    Call your AHJ and ask them how hip and ridge tiles are supposed to be attached. Tell them you've heard of, and seen, nailers being installed and the hip and ridge tiles are fastened to those nailers. Then ask if that is require there.

    1) When they say 'Huh?', that's your answer.

    2) When they say 'Yes, that's a new system.', that's your cue to ask 'OK, okay, when did you start requiring them here?' (you now have your answer).

    3) When they say 'Yes, but we don't bother with that crap here.', that's also your answer.

    2) is a good reply from them, 1) and 3) are not.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Tile Roof Help Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Actually, mortar is an 'adhesive' in that use, it's just separated from foam and other adhesives due to the vast differences in their properties, and the fact that mortar fails to bond at a relatively high rate when not done precisely, exactly, correctly, the right way.



    That's the harder part, but basically - yes.

    The newer code (which may apply, probably applies to that house) requires a ridge nailer, either wood or sheet metal. You've probably seen them being installed on newer roofs. Their sole purpose is to provide an anchor base for those fasteners for the hip and ridge tiles.



    My guess would be that the fasteners *are* "required", but that the AHJ in your area is not yet, or was not then, aware of it. That does not make it "right", it just makes it "harder to get it done right" after the fact.

    Call your AHJ and ask them how hip and ridge tiles are supposed to be attached. Tell them you've heard of, and seen, nailers being installed and the hip and ridge tiles are fastened to those nailers. Then ask if that is require there.

    1) When they say 'Huh?', that's your answer.

    2) When they say 'Yes, that's a new system.', that's your cue to ask 'OK, okay, when did you start requiring them here?' (you now have your answer).

    3) When they say 'Yes, but we don't bother with that crap here.', that's also your answer.

    2) is a good reply from them, 1) and 3) are not.
    4) call is dropped as soon as you get the question asked, also not good

    badair http://www.adairinspection.com Garland, TX 75042 TREC # 4563
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Tile Roof Help Please

    Jerry,

    I called and emailed the Tile Roof Institute and asked about the rake tiles used as ridge and hip tiles and apparently there is a universal tile that can be used on the rakes and the ridges.

    Here is his reply. just thought I would pass the info along for everyone. Thank you very much for everyone who replied.


    Matt,

    What you are seeing is what we call in the industry as a Universal Ridge and rake. These products can be used for both applications. Since they have the nail holes for applications to either, they will be visible in the hip or ridge applications.

    This is allowed by codes and will not affect the performance of the trim tiles.

    Sincerely

    Rick Olson

    Technical Director


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Tile Roof Help Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Hawley View Post
    What you are seeing is what we call in the industry as a Universal Ridge and rake. These products can be used for both applications. Since they have the nail holes for applications to either, they will be visible in the hip or ridge applications.
    Matt,

    Thank you, I have again learned something new.

    Of course, though, that does not get the roofer off the hook regarding their attachment and installation such that the tiles are "loose" and should not be. Just means the roofer does not need to replace the tiles unless the tiles are broken.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  9. #9
    Matt Hawley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tile Roof Help Please

    Jerry,

    Thank you very much for always helping me out. I called the tiles out that were not properly secured, lacking proper head lap in several areas and there were a few cracked and chipped tiles here and there.

    The big issue is definatly the loose ridge and hip tiles. I would not want to be anywhere near this house during the next hurricane.

    Thanks again for your help.


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