Thread: no tar paper

Hey have any of you guys ever heard of a time when tar paper was not required under roofing asphault shingles. This builder, also the homeowner says that at the time he built the home, 1987, there was no requirement for it. I 've never heard of it and was wondering if any of you have. Roof was in OK shape for age and plywood underlayment looked fine. Thanks , Wayne

Similar Threads:

• Paper Insulation?
• Foiled Paper in crawl space
• Paper cover of poured footing
• Tar paper "Shack" revisonist?
• Todays paper bargain

Wayne,

Felt underlayment has been required for as long as I can remember. I would have thought that in CT, you would have all kinds of additional stuff like ice dams that we don't have around here.

Yes Gunnar, All that good stuff too. I can't ever remember seeing one without tar paper at least. Thanks for the reply.

It's not required that I'm aware. Can you folks direct me to a cite that requires felt paper?.


It's certainly a better building practice and some manufacturers require an underlayment. One that I'm aware of specifies felt.

Down south there are a lot of roofs w/ no underlayment.

Are you kidding me???? Well, I just inspected a home last week that is is four months past one year old, and it didn't have underlayment. Didn't have house wrap, either. I could tell because the weep holes were 18" up the brick veneer, and I could see the naked sheathing beneath. Not to mention the 9 hip rafters that somehow got missed when it came time to drive the obligatory 3 nails. I can't believe it's not required. That roof covering must be 35 year stuff, it if really is good. Are you sure the shingles aren't brittle? They will surely wear out several years faster, as the effects or sun and water will take a harsher toll on them without underlayment. In R905.2.7, the IRC even spells out how to apply the underlayment.

Hard as it is to believe, the builder could be correct:

- May not be required by manufacturer, for example see pp. 44 below:

- Not required UL in many installations, see pp 45 below.

http://www.certainteed.com/NR/rdonly...Manual8Ch5.pdf

- However, often (universally, AFAIK, in my area) required by the local AHJ.

- Upgrades may be recommended/required in high wind zones:

http://www.fema.gov/pdf/rebuild/mat/...gcc_fact19.pdf

MA code requires it.

It may not be a building requirement but I believe most shingle manufacturers recommend it. It's also just good building practice.

I knew a builder from TN who had been building for many years and his roofer never used underlayment - because it was not required.

Then along comes a major storm (remnants from a tropical storm) dumping tons of water on the area and roofs started leaking.

The manufacturer refused to honor the warranties on those roofs because underlayment was NOT USED, even though they DID NOT "require it" - they did, however, "recommend it". Being as the roofer and the builder did not do what was "recommended", the manufacturer walked.

The builder and roof went bankrupt as a result.

This is from Michael's CertainTeed reference: (underlining and bold are mine)

WHEN UNDERLAYMENTS ARE REQUIRED

The installation of water-resistant underlayment beneath shingles is

required

by many shingle manufacturers. Generally, CertainTeed
recommends that underlayment be installed but does not require it
except as noted below.

LOW SLOPE:

All roof shingles applied to a low slope deck (2" to
below 4" per foot) require the use of CertainTeed WinterGuard™

Waterproofing Shingle Underlayment, or its equivalent,* applied over
the entire deck surface. Consult the WinterGuard and individual shingle
application instructions for details. (Jerry's note: This WSU 'Waterproofing Shingle Underlayment' is not the same thing as 'roofing felt'.)

* For low slopes, underlayment equivalents to WinterGuard include:
1) waterproofing shingle underlayments meeting ASTM D1970; and

2) two layers of 36" (915 mm) wide felt shingle underlayment lapped
19" (485 mm). Shingle underlayment should meet ASTM D6757, ASTM
D4869 Type I or ASTM D226 Type I (except when applying LandMark
TL or Presidential TL Shake shingles.)

COLD WEATHER CLIMATES (ALL SLOPES):

Applying WinterGuard
Waterproofing Shingle Underlayment, or its equivalent,** is strongly
recommended wherever there is a possibility of icing along the eaves
causing a backup of water.

** For ice dam leak protection, the equivalents to WinterGuard include:
1) waterproofing shingle underlayments meeting ASTM D1970; and
2) two layers of 36" (915 mm) wide felt shingle underlayment lapped
19" (485 mm) and fully adhered to each other with asphalt roofing
cement meeting ASTM D4586 Type II. Shingle underlayment should
meet ASTM D6757, ASTM D4869 Type I or ASTM D226 Type I.

VALLEY FLASHING :

Line valley by centering 36" (915 mm) wide
CertainTeed WinterGuard, or equivalent,*** in the valley and applying
directly to deck. Consult the WinterGuard and individual shingle
application instructions for details.

*** For valley liner, the equivalents to WinterGuard include:
1) waterproofing shingle underlayments meeting ASTM D1970;
2) one layer of 50 lb. or heavier asphalt coated roll roofing; 3)
one layer of mineral-surfaced roll roofing; and 4) two layers of 36"
(915 mm) wide felt shingle underlayment. Coated roll roofing should
meet ASTM D224; shingle underlayment should meet ASTM D6757,
ASTM D4869 Type I or ASTM D226 Type I.

REQUIREMENTS BY UNDERWRITERS LABORATORIES (UL)
FOR FIRE-RATED PREPARED ROOFING

◆

UL classified underlayment is required under Class A fire-resistant
shingles when plywood or non-veneer (OSB, WB, etc.) APA
sheathing is at least 3/8" thick but less than 15/32".

◆

When sheathing thicker than 15/32" is used under fiber glass-type
shingles, shingle underlayment is not required for a UL Class A
fire rating.

◆

UL does not require underlayment under Class C shingles applied
to sheathing with a minimum thickness of 3/8" due to a large
safety margin.

Now ... is it "required" or not? Only if you want the shingle manufacturer to honor their warranty.

Underlayment is required for anyone working off the more recent versions of the IRC. Mine's 2000 and as Jimmy pointed out the code cite is at R905.2.7.

I couldn't tell you how far back in time the requirement goes...

Originally Posted by Brandon Chew

Underlayment is required for anyone working off the more recent versions of the IRC. Mine's 2000 and as Jimmy pointed out the code cite is at R905.2.7.

I couldn't tell you how far back in time the requirement goes...

Brandon:

Correct. 2000 was the first version and it's in 2003 and 2006.

R905.2.7 Underlayment application.
For roof slopes from two units vertical in 12 units horizontal (17-percent slope), up to four units vertical in 12 units horizontal (33-percent slope), underlayment shall be two layers applied in the following manner. Apply a 19-inch (483 mm) strip of underlayment felt parallel with and starting at the eaves, fastened sufficiently to hold in place. Starting at the eave, apply 36-inch-wide (914 mm) sheets of underlayment, overlapping successive sheets 19 inches (483 mm), and fastened sufficiently to hold in place. For roof slopes of four units vertical in 12 units horizontal (33-percent slope) or greater, underlayment shall be one layer applied in the following manner. Underlayment shall be applied shingle fashion, parallel to and starting from the eave and lapped 2 inches (51 mm), fastened sufficiently to hold in place. End laps shall be offset by 6 feet (1829 mm).

Lots of "shalls" in there for JP. Suggestions and recommendations by manufacturers equal "SHALLS", unless as JP says, you don't care about your warranty. The voided fire rating also voids portions of your homeowners insurance policy coverage. Some of the adjusters here will not underwrite without underlayment . . .

Aaron

That's good.

What's quite interesting is that "felt" is specified.
So, does that make all the new products like the "titanium" polyethylenes non compliant?

Originally Posted by Chad Fabry

That's good.

What's quite interesting is that "felt" is specified.
So, does that make all the new products like the "titanium" polyethylenes non compliant?

Chad:

No. As the code is only revised every three years, and even then doesn't pretend to address all possibilites, it cannot speak to every different type of material available. So long as an underlayment material is manufacturer- and UL-approved, I would think it allowable. Oh yes, JP would want me to add, and building official-approved. . .

Aaron

FYI. In late 1970s and early 1980s tile roofs of certain brand had NO tar paper, this prooved to be a problem and they went back to underlayment.
I always recommended that they consult with a roofing contractor to evlauate and advise on or if any repair is needed.

Hope this helps.
Rolland pruner

Originally Posted by Rolland Pruner

FYI. In late 1970s and early 1980s tile roofs of certain brand had NO tar paper, this prooved to be a problem and they went back to underlayment.
I always recommended that they consult with a roofing contractor to evlauate and advise on or if any repair is needed.

Hope this helps.
Rolland pruner

True. Monier was one of them. Got sued so many times they changed their ways.

Aaron

The major reason its there is so when you strip the old shingles the new ones lay flat--- Have you ever had to remove shingles from plywood ????
its a real nightmare.. GOOD Luck

thanks for all your replies and I had no intention of starting a code tournament but very interesting results and info. And as we all knew from the start. The house will have to be torn down leaving only the roofing fasteners suspended in the air through electro magnetic pulse and then rebuilt around those nails reusing them as stated in irc #%^$$%&%$.
In other words. The builder is pissed as usual in that he saved 75 dollars to spend 4 grand. Live and learn. Thanks again, wayne