Lord, help me with these roofers

William Mize · 10-01-2007, 01:07 PM

Did an inspection on Thursday where the shingles were as usual, the starter course is regular shingles turned upside down nailed down and then the first course directly on top, nothing to prevent wind lift at the edge. On Friday the RE calls and says "there are some things on your report we would like to have you explain, could you come over here to the house?" When I got there it was the selling RE and the seller. Should have gone home then but; first thing was the RE telling me that that installation was OK because that was the wa;y everybody does it and the seller said he had done roofing and taht was the way it is always done. I countered with the manufacturers specify when using regular shingles that the procedure is to cut off the tabs and put the singles as normal and use the sealing strips, they stated again that "thats the way everybody does it" but I have a house down the street where the owners son roofed it and he did it by the Maimi-Dade codes and it is right. My counter to their objection was everybody is doing it wrong.

To prevent this from happening again I ask you guys to give me book, chapter and verse for as many mgf's and Asphalt Roofing Assocation installation specifications as possible.

Willie

PS: do I get a "twofer" award for the RE and the seller or do you have to get three or more for awards now

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**Jim Luttrall** · 10-01-2007, 02:42 PM

This is from one of the manufacturers installation instructions.

**Jerry McCarthy** · 10-01-2007, 02:46 PM

William, question; does the local AHJ require a permit for re-roofing? Most do.
If not, you performed an inspection and gave an opinion. You do not need to explain nor defend it to the seller or the agent representing them. Why waste the time and energy as it's a no-win situation at best.

**Jim Luttrall** · 10-01-2007, 02:51 PM

Here is one manufacturers instructions:
Most have these online.
This is from the instructions and says it pretty plainly. The underline is mine, I doubt they want to go to the trouble to do it manually, so they need to use self-sealing shingles like the manufacturer says to do it.

5. APPLICATION INSTRUCTIONS
STARTER COURSE: A starter course may consist of TAMKO Shingle
Starter, self-sealing type shingles or a 9 inch wide strip of mineral surface
roll roofing. If self-sealing shingles are used, remove the exposed
tab portion and install with the factory applied adhesive adjacent to the
eaves. Attach the starter course with approved fasteners along a line
parallel to and 3 in. to 4 in. above the eaves edge. The starter course
should overhang both the eaves and rake edges 1/4 in. to 3/8 in. If a
roll roofing is used, seal down the shingles in the first course by applying
adhesive cement in four spots equally spaced to the surface of
the starter strip and press the shingle down on the spots of cement.
Plastic cement should be used sparingly, as excessive amounts may
cause blistering.

**Jim Luttrall** · 10-01-2007, 03:03 PM

Willie, I always tell my client that the vast majority of roofers (and I use that term loosely) do not install according to the manufacturers instructions and I include a diagram in the report from the instructions.
Of course you are dealing with the seller and his agent in this case, so you are already fighting a loosing battle. A little documentation on the front end can save SOME of this kind of thing, but not all of it. You might tell them when the call that "you have a $xxx re-inspection or consultation fee and are they willing to pay that when you arrive?".

William Mize · 10-02-2007, 05:46 AM

Jerry the roofers do not have to get permits for roofing jobs, no licensing or certifiction needed, any Bozo can get a hammer and a couple of ladders and be in the roofing business. The average home owner will go with the cheapest price for a reroof ("How bad can they mess this job up").

I appreciate the links and files and have saved them to a flash drive and will install on my computer.

You guys are Great!
Thanks again
Willie

Aaron Miller · 10-02-2007, 07:40 AM

Willie:

Almost every roofer I have encountered over the past ten or so years does the same several things wrong:

(1) Felt lapped wrong in relation to the drip edge flashing.

(2) Felt missing at cornice returns and eyebrow roofs.

(3) Improper starter row installation.

(4) Too few nails.

(5) Misplaced nails.

(6) Drip edge flashing corners cut wrong or folded wrong.

(7) Failure to seal nail holes resulting from the removal of temporary cleats.

With the exception of the last one, every one of these issues is described in detail on the back of the shingle package. Some manufacturers even describe it in two languages. Guess which two.

Last year I had a big builder, Darling Homes I think, call my bluff on this in Frisco. We had a meeting in the front yard of a new build with 6 municipal inspectors, the buyer, two builder reps and me. Before we started the discussion, the roofing contractor for the builder showed up at the house across the street. The buyer, who speaks Spanish, went over and asked them if they understood how these things were supposed to be done.

The contractor said they did, but that their boss was more interested in getting it done quickly. From the mouths of babes . . . The municipal inspectors acted surprised about all of the items listed above (especially the starter row - it was like they were looking at something from Mars) and promised to insure that they were tended to on all future houses built in their town.

I still have not seen one done right in Frisco to this day.

Aaron

**Matt Fellman** · 10-02-2007, 08:18 AM

I love it when you're standing in the yard explaing to the buyer and agent all of the installation problems with the roof... So, for a little backup you scan the nearby houses to find one that's 'right' - too often you can't find one... They're all done wrong......

Or the call you get that goes something like this... 'I called the seller and he says his brother has been putting on roofs for 20 years...' Like just because someone does something wrong for a long time it makes it right.

Aaron Miller · 10-02-2007, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by Matt Fellman

I love it when you're standing in the yard explaing to the buyer and agent all of the installation problems with the roof... So, for a little backup you scan the nearby houses to find one that's 'right' - too often you can't find one... They're all done wrong......

Or the call you get that goes something like this... 'I called the seller and he says his brother has been putting on roofs for 20 years...' Like just because someone does something wrong for a long time it makes it right.

Amen.

**Jim Luttrall** · 10-02-2007, 09:05 AM

(7) Failure to seal nail holes resulting from the removal of temporary cleats.

Aaron, does anyone doing new construction roofs own roof jacks for toe boards? I see 2x4's nailed directly on top of brand new shingles all the time and holes from where they are pulled off. In my mind on a new home, I would not be satisfied with 40-50 nail holes in my brand new roof, am I delusional to expect more?

Aaron Miller · 10-02-2007, 09:14 AM

Jim:

I have seen roof jacks once or twice, mostly on other than composotion shingle roofs. It's simply a matter of economics. Roof jacks are much more expensive than a couple of tubes of fibered roofing cement. The savings will by lots of bottles of Jarritos and many tacos for lunches.

Si,

Aaron