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  1. #1
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    Default Reveal / over exposure question

    New construction. Noted exposed nail heads at the bottom edge of several shingles in various areas in field of the roof. The exposure of the shingles varied from 5 and 1/8" to 5 3/4" in the field and the first course was 6". Obviously, we have installation error. What would an acceptable tolerance of exposure be? If it is supposed to be 5" (non-metric shingle) and I see 5 1/8", I would think that would be withing a tolerance.

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Quote Originally Posted by Randall Clark View Post
    New construction. Noted exposed nail heads at the bottom edge of several shingles in various areas in field of the roof. The exposure of the shingles varied from 5 and 1/8" to 5 3/4" in the field and the first course was 6". Obviously, we have installation error. What would an acceptable tolerance of exposure be? If it is supposed to be 5" (non-metric shingle) and I see 5 1/8", I would think that would be withing a tolerance.
    A 'good tolerance' would be that stated on the manufacturer's installation instructions, I have not looked for a tolerance for exposure, close is good enough, and the problem is not one of 'tolerance or exposure' - the problem is that the nails are outside their tolerance. The nails will have strict guidelines for their placement, too high and they are 'no good', too low and they are 'no good'. If the nails had been placed within their tolerance locations then none of the nails would be showing.

    Remember that recent thread (from a couple of days ago) about shingle installers and nail guns? Yep - this is a case of 'nail gun running wild', or 'have nail gun, will travel' and travel they did ... all over the shingles.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post

    Remember that recent thread (from a couple of days ago) about shingle installers and nail guns? Yep - this is a case of 'nail gun running wild', or 'have nail gun, will travel' and travel they did ... all over the shingles.
    Power Tools don't Wreck Stuff, The Operators of The Power Tool Does.

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    Power Tools don't Wreck Stuff, The Operators of The Power Tool Does.
    I completely agree, but ... give the operator who wrecks stuff a hammer and a hand saw and he/she will not be able to wreck as must stuff as quickly.

    Take away the nail gun and they will not mess it up as much as fast.

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I completely agree, but ... give the operator who wrecks stuff a hammer and a hand saw and he/she will not be able to wreck as must stuff as quickly.

    Take away the nail gun and they will not mess it up as much as fast.
    Or just not let those Operators on the job site.

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I completely agree, but ... give the operator who wrecks stuff a hammer and a hand saw and he/she will not be able to wreck as must stuff as quickly.

    Take away the nail gun and they will not mess it up as much as fast.
    Or a hammer guy in a hurry may decide three or even two nails is sufficient and who's to know until the shingles start blowing off. I found many hammered three-nailed shingles on my own roof when they started blowing off.

    When my shingles were replaced, I upgraded to IR shingles which require six nails and checked the work to make sure they put all six in.

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon Henderson View Post
    Or a hammer guy in a hurry may decide three or even two nails is sufficient and who's to know until the shingles start blowing off. I found many hammered three-nailed shingles on my own roof when they started blowing off.

    When my shingles were replaced, I upgraded to IR shingles which require six nails and checked the work to make sure they put all six in.
    If the operator of the hammer is only going to put three nails into each shingle, then that same operator of a nail gun will only put three nails into each shingle - but put the nails in much worse and probably overdriven through the shingles - be lucking they were using a hammer and not a nail gun for those three nails.

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    If the operator of the hammer is only going to put three nails into each shingle, then that same operator of a nail gun will only put three nails into each shingle - but put the nails in much worse and probably overdriven through the shingles - be lucking they were using a hammer and not a nail gun for those three nails.
    Once upon a time, I worked on crews that swung hammers, framing axes, and wielded nail guns. It has been my observation that you're wrong about every carpenter and roofer that I've known. The reason is obvious. A guy can literally put four nails in a shingle with a nail gun in one second. On my roof, they shot six in 1.1 seconds. Even the fastest hand-pounder can't touch those speeds and it's easy with a nail gun. The laziest roofer can put the required number of nails in with a nail gun in the same motion that he put the first nail in with. And because of the way nails for guns are made, they hold slightly better than regular nails, so in fact, I would not be glad that those three nails were put in with a hammer.

    Twenty years ago, I re-roofed my own house. It had been ten or more years since I had done any roofing. I thought I'd blast out my roof in about a day and a half like I did when I was in the business.........and younger. Sigh..........three days later I finished. My back was killing me. If I had hand pounded those nails, I might be still working on that roof.

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon Henderson View Post
    Once upon a time, I worked on crews that swung hammers, framing axes, and wielded nail guns. It has been my observation that you're wrong about every carpenter and roofer that I've known. The reason is obvious. A guy can literally put four nails in a shingle with a nail gun in one second. On my roof, they shot six in 1.1 seconds. Even the fastest hand-pounder can't touch those speeds and it's easy with a nail gun. The laziest roofer can put the required number of nails in with a nail gun in the same motion that he put the first nail in with. And because of the way nails for guns are made, they hold slightly better than regular nails, so in fact, I would not be glad that those three nails were put in with a hammer.

    Twenty years ago, I re-roofed my own house. It had been ten or more years since I had done any roofing. I thought I'd blast out my roof in about a day and a half like I did when I was in the business.........and younger. Sigh..........three days later I finished. My back was killing me. If I had hand pounded those nails, I might be still working on that roof.
    Lon,

    You have COMPLETELY missed the point ...

    "A guy can literally put four nails in a shingle with a nail gun in one second. On my roof, they shot six in 1.1 seconds. Even the fastest hand-pounder can't touch those speeds and it's easy with a nail gun."

    THE POINT was that the nail gun operator CAN put soooo many more nails in than the hammer operator, so the hammer operator tends to take a little tinsy bit more time to PUT THE NAILS IN THE CORRECT LOCATIONS whereas the nail gun operator shoots the nails out machine gun-like hoping that some will be *close enough* to count as being nailed.

    Think of it as the difference between an army sniper and a guy rushing you with an Uzi ... one is a single shot at a time (the sniper) so each shot counts, the other is 'spray and pray' (the Uzi) because all the Uzi operator knows is that the bullets are going 'out in front of him somewhere' and he 'hopes one bullet might hit something'.

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Lon,

    You have COMPLETELY missed the point ...

    Think of it as the difference between an army sniper and a guy rushing you with an Uzi ... one is a single shot at a time (the sniper) so each shot counts, the other is 'spray and pray' (the Uzi) because all the Uzi operator knows is that the bullets are going 'out in front of him somewhere' and he 'hopes one bullet might hit something'.
    I haven't missed your point, I just disagree. I like your comparison but it isn't necessarily applicable here. When I was learning how to use a roofing gun, I put a few nails where they didn't belong, but it didn't take more than a hundred or so shingles to get proficient with the gun. It isn't "spraying nails" for a pro. Sure, it's possible to be sloppy but so what, ditto for the hand nailer. Think of the expert quick draw shooter who puts all six shots on target(s) in a second with a revolver. That's a better comparison.

    Whether swinging a hammer or wielding a nail gun, a skilled guy is on target and a slob isn't. In my day, I could stick three 16 penny nails touching each other on a board and one swat two without touching the third. Then I'd offer a guy a hundred bucks to put his finger next to the remaining nail. Oddly, no one took me up on it. It was a nice skill trick, but then I picked up my nail gun for work.

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    I'm glad Lon put his word in. Jerry, you make it sound like these guns shoot from afar, just as you did in the thread your referred to earlier, in which you described an "arc" of nails driven from a certain point. Unless you have arms down to your ankles, that's not how it works. You have to put the gun where you want the nail, just as you have to put a nail where you want to pound it. Either way can be done sloppily - but with a hammer, arm fatigue becomes a real problem after the 1000th nail of the day and it doesn't take carelessness to misfire.

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristi Silber View Post
    I'm glad Lon put his word in. Jerry, you make it sound like these guns shoot from afar, just as you did in the thread your referred to earlier, in which you described an "arc" of nails driven from a certain point. Unless you have arms down to your ankles, that's not how it works. You have to put the gun where you want the nail, just as you have to put a nail where you want to pound it. Either way can be done sloppily - but with a hammer, arm fatigue becomes a real problem after the 1000th nail of the day and it doesn't take carelessness to misfire.
    Kristi,

    If you've ever done a lot of roof inspections where you were able to see the nails before the layer above as installed, you could very easily see the "arc" created from where the nail gun operator stood and went side to side, the 'center' where the operator would be would be the top of the arc, with each side going down, forming the arc shape, as this is caused by people with normal length arms which are not elastic and do not become longer the further out from the body the arms are and the nail gun is.

    Sure ... *some* nail gun operators will nail shingles and roof sheathing correctly and properly, as a matter of fact just this morning I was on a roof sheathing inspection and there were *almost NO* overdriven nails, whereas on most roof sheathing inspections are are almost no nails NOT overdriven - this was SO out of the ordinary that I complimented the contractor and his crew for the roof sheathing nail job as I had not seen one *that good* in many years ... hmmm ... since roof sheathing was hand nailed maybe.

    Yes, it 'can' be done properly with nail guns ... however, that is the exception, not the rule, the ruling scenario is that 'it can't be done properly' with a nail gun - and, yes, I agree with you and Lon that it is *the operator* and not *the nail gun* itself, but a sloppy hammer operator simply cannot pump out as many nails, good or bad, as a nail gun operator can, and sloppy nail gun operators seem to outnumber good nail gun operators 100 to 1 ... maybe even 1000 to 1.

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Jerry, I guess I'm not understanding you. Why would you have any arcs at all when nailing shingles? The nails should be in straight lines.

    "a sloppy hammer operator simply cannot pump out as many nails, good or bad, as a nail gun operator can,"

    And this is a good thing? Seems like then you would simply have a sloppy job done with fewer nails. Or slow and sloppy.

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristi Silber View Post
    Jerry, I guess I'm not understanding you. Why would you have any arcs at all when nailing shingles? The nails should be in straight lines.
    Agreed ... "The nails should be in straight lines." The key word in there is "should", but the human body is not made with a rack and pinion onto which the arms are mounted, when you stand in one place and turn to the left to nail a shingle ... and turn to the center to continue nailing another shingle ... and turn to the right for yet another shingle, your arms are always the same length with your hands forming an arc just like the hands of a clock do not make a straight line but instead make a circle as the hands rotate around the center pivot point.

    Try this: While sitting at the table eating dinner the next time, reach to the left, then straight ahead, then to the right ... could you reach the same point from the edge of the table as you turn, or could you just reach out the same distance from your body as you turned from side to side? My arms remain the same length and I can half way or more across the table straight in front of me, but I can't even come close to reaching half way across the table when turned to the left or the right - if I held a pencil in my hand and drew a line on the table, it would form an arc (of course, though, then my granddaughter would want to try the same experiment and there would be lots of arc drawn on the table from all around the table, not a good idea on second thought ).

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Professional roofers have no trouble using nail guns and placing the shingles and the nails where they should be, straight and at the correct depth. Amateurs will screw things up in every way imaginable.

    My personal grievance is with the nail gun nails themselves. They are electroplated and they go rusty within weeks if they are exposed. Good old hot-dipped galvanized nails have to be driven with a good old hammer. And that is why I prefer the slow, methodical hammer.

    When I was pounding nails for a living, I could drive nails all day and was quite fast at flipping them out with the left and banging them with the right. We tried the nail gun in 1973 and didn't like dragging the hose around and screwing around with it. The compressor noise was an annoyance too. It's all in what you're used to. But I will take a little longer and have my shingles nailed with galvanized nails that have more grip and don't rust.

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    My personal grievance is with the nail gun nails themselves. They are electroplated and they go rusty within weeks if they are exposed.
    That isn't my experience at all. I've pulled out fifteen year old nail gun nails on my own roof that were as shiny as the day they went in. And they hold better (usually) than traditional galvanized nails, although rough galvanized nails hold very well.

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Agreed ... "The nails should be in straight lines." The key word in there is "should", but the human body is not made with a rack and pinion onto which the arms are mounted, when you stand in one place and turn to the left to nail a shingle ... and turn to the center to continue nailing another shingle ... and turn to the right for yet another shingle, your arms are always the same length with your hands forming an arc just like the hands of a clock do not make a straight line but instead make a circle as the hands rotate around the center pivot point.
    This is why we have legs and elbows. Who in their right mind would nail shingles in arcs, holding the gun always with a straight arm and not moving from a point or even leaning? There would be far more problems with shingles than there are now if that were the case.

    We don't have hurricanes up here, but you may have read that a week and a half ago we had a series of storms that left over 616,000 MN customers (i.e. meters) without power, most in the Twin Cities. My electricity was out for four days. There are thousands of trees down from straight-line winds, and some are still in the street. But I've seen very little roof damage not due to treefalls. Perhaps our inspectors are better here or the roofers are, I don't know. Whatever the reason, shingle damage due to age or manufacturing defects seems generally much more common than that due to poor nailing (though there are problems with flashing, gutters, siding-shingle junctions, etc.).

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristi Silber View Post
    Who in their right mind would nail shingles in arcs, ...
    Maybe that's it! People in their right mind are lefties, people in their left mind are righties ... so maybe all the installers I've been behind were righties and thus not in their right mind!

    I KNEW there had to be an explanation ...

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Hee hee! As a leftie, I can live with that!

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Jerry, from your posts it's pretty obvious you don't have much experience roofing. I don't know any roofers "standing" while nailing shingles as you've mentioned a couple times. Roofers don't nail shingles to the left or right of them, especially with outstretched arms. Roofers work bottom to top, in a straight line, nailing the shingles directly in front of them. When a couple courses are done they move up. When that line is done, they go back down, move over and work their way back up again.

    The maximum distance their dealing with on asphalt shingles is 60 inches, but keep in mind the outer two nails on those two shingles don't get nailed on that first pass. They're nailed the next pass as you've got to lift the ends of the shingles up to put a course underneath them. So basically the roofer is only dealing with a 30 inch nailing pattern every pass.

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    Jerry, from your posts it's pretty obvious you don't have much experience roofing. I don't know any roofers "standing" while nailing shingles as you've mentioned a couple times. Roofers don't nail shingles to the left or right of them, especially with outstretched arms. Roofers work bottom to top, in a straight line, nailing the shingles directly in front of them. When a couple courses are done they move up. When that line is done, they go back down, move over and work their way back up again.

    The maximum distance their dealing with on asphalt shingles is 60 inches, but keep in mind the outer two nails on those two shingles don't get nailed on that first pass. They're nailed the next pass as you've got to lift the ends of the shingles up to put a course underneath them. So basically the roofer is only dealing with a 30 inch nailing pattern every pass.
    Being from St Paul, MN seems to be the biggest difference that you are disregarding.

    As I have explained to my clients over the many years: In the New England states they have 'craftsmen' and 'Apprentices', in the Mid-Atlantic states they have 'Apprentices' and 'Workers', in the Lower-Atlantic states they have 'Workers' and 'Laborers', in Florida we have 'Laborers' and 'Day-laborers' ... and somewhere in there are 'helpers' ... so suggesting that I have very little roofing experience is coming from an unknowing source 'you'.

    After you've been in Florida for a while and find out that our 'master' carpenters' are less skilled than 'apprentices' up in the North, possibly even less skilled than 'workers' up there, you will begin to appreciate what those of us in Florida are dealing with ... (turning to the 'helper' - I asked for a "hammer", not a "screwdriver" ... 'helper' replies 'what's the difference they both can be used to pound nails in and pry wood apart').

    Yes, I will admit that I occasionally do see a real live 'qualified' carpenter at work, but only during the winter months, then they 'Go back up Noth fer the sumr ... '

    We almost bought a house in North Carolina back in 2006, we were 'Half-backs' in the area ... being from Nu York, having moved to Flahda, then 'Half way back'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    The maximum distance their dealing with on asphalt shingles is 60 inches, but keep in mind the outer two nails on those two shingles don't get nailed on that first pass. They're nailed the next pass as you've got to lift the ends of the shingles up to put a course underneath them. So basically the roofer is only dealing with a 30 inch nailing pattern every pass.
    You have NO idea how they lay shingles down here ... yet you are telling me how they do it ...

    How many nails do you put in a shingle? 4? You would FAIL EVERY TIME because *6* nails are required, and, NO, you do NOT leave out that last nail and go back and LIFT ANYTHING - you lay the shingle, nail across it, lay another shingle and nail across it, and, if you ca reach, you go for laying and nailing the third shingle. Ken, you apparently DON'T KNOW A THING ABOUT laying shingles ...

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post


    You have NO idea how they lay shingles down here ... yet you are telling me how they do it ...

    How many nails do you put in a shingle? 4? You would FAIL EVERY TIME because *6* nails are required, and, NO, you do NOT leave out that last nail and go back and LIFT ANYTHING - you lay the shingle, nail across it, lay another shingle and nail across it, and, if you ca reach, you go for laying and nailing the third shingle. Ken, you apparently DON'T KNOW A THING ABOUT laying shingles ...
    Jerry, What you're describing here is laying the shingles side to side or one end of the roof to the other...something an experienced roofer would never do. When working bottom to top the roofer is able to keep the shingles straight and in line with the chalk lines they laid out before even nailing one shingle (something all good roofers do). In order to work top to bottom you have to lift the ends of the shingles of the previous column they've already nailed (remember, shingles are staggered). Number of nails is dependent on the manufacturer's installation requirements and wind zone. The answer is not automatically 6. If I remember correctly the number could be anywhere from 4 to 8.

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Jerry,

    My apologies, the installation I described (known as racking) is not the preferred method for installation of the newer designs of shingles (fiberglass, architectural, etc). The horizontal method preferred, which you described, will lend it self to poor installations if the roofer is not extremely careful.

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Ken - any idea why racking is not good with the newer shingles? Is it because they shouldn't be bent? I can see why you wouldn't want to do it where you're putting in 6 nails, but that's not common up here as far as I know.

    I've done something similar to what you describe, but only one end is left free on alternate courses, in order to slide in the course below it. An alternative is to work up and out from a corner. There is then no need to raise the shingles, but you don't have to move as much as you do if you lay one full course then another.

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    Jerry, What you're describing here is laying the shingles side to side or one end of the roof to the other...something an experienced roofer would never do.
    Ken,

    Again, your inexperience in the methods used outside your apparently protected area is showing your inexperience overall - you say that with the same conviction that a first grader does when they say "I know how to that! " after having been shown how to do 'whatever' one time.

    They know they know how it is done.

    In your case, you know how it is done "everywhere" because you know how you've done it.

    Except you haven't done it everywhere.

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristi Silber View Post
    Ken - any idea why racking is not good with the newer shingles? Is it because they shouldn't be bent? I can see why you wouldn't want to do it where you're putting in 6 nails, but that's not common up here as far as I know.
    It's not preferred when installing fiberglass or architectural shingles as the shingles can crack when they're lifted for nailing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Ken,

    Again, your inexperience in the methods used outside your apparently protected area is showing your inexperience overall - you say that with the same conviction that a first grader does when they say "I know how to that! " after having been shown how to do 'whatever' one time.

    They know they know how it is done.

    In your case, you know how it is done "everywhere" because you know how you've done it.

    Except you haven't done it everywhere.
    Jerry, did you miss my apology in post #23 or are you just being an ass?

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Ken,

    Again, your inexperience in the methods used outside your apparently protected area is showing your inexperience overall - you say that with the same conviction that a first grader does when they say "I know how to that! " after having been shown how to do 'whatever' one time.

    They know they know how it is done.

    In your case, you know how it is done "everywhere" because you know how you've done it.

    Except you haven't done it everywhere.

    The same sort of generalization could be said of you, Jerry. For instance, nowhere in reply #12 did you qualify your denigration of roofers as referring to those down in FL.

    Sheesh, this is getting to be like an argument among first graders. Let it suffice to say, roofing is done differently depending on locale, nail guns can be used well, and they can be used carelessly. Can everyone agree on that at least?

    (Thanks, Ken, for the explanation.)

    Do not think of knocking out another person's brains because he differs in opinion from you. It would be as rational to knock yourself on the head because you differ from yourself ten years ago.
    - James Burgh, 1754.

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristi Silber View Post
    Can everyone agree on that at least?
    Nope.

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    John Kogel---"My personal grievance is with the nail gun nails themselves. They are electroplated and they go rusty within weeks if they are exposed. Good old hot-dipped galvanized nails have to be driven with a good old hammer. And that is why I prefer the slow, methodical hammer."


    Hey John,
    In case you want to re-roof your place someday and would like to try a coil gun...they make hot dipped galvanized nails by the coil. It has been my experience that they take a bit more pressure to set. The drop off is fast, so one has to pay attention (make sure the the fastener is set) if your used to using the electroplated nails.


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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question



    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dsmltaylor View Post
    Sorry. Photo upload of suspect overexposed shingles did not attach. Trying again. Note that the site is in Erie, PA, not a hurricane prone city, but what are the consequences if any of this kind of work?




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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Quote Originally Posted by Dsmltaylor View Post


    - - - Updated - - -


    Sorry. Photo upload of suspect overexposed shingles did not attach. Trying again. Note that the site is in Erie, PA, not a hurricane prone city, but what are the consequences if any of this kind of work?

    It depends on how much exposure the shingles have and pitch of the roof.
    Could be almost no effect at all, to the shingles blowing off, leaks, or the shingles needing replacement sooner than expected.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    It depends on how much exposure the shingles have and pitch of the roof.
    Could be almost no effect at all, to the shingles blowing off, leaks, or the shingles needing replacement sooner than expected.

    attached picture:

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Those shingles do not look over-exposed to me. The dark band is there for looks.

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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    Those shingles do not look over-exposed to me. The dark band is there for looks.
    Agree

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  35. #35
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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon Henderson View Post
    Once upon a time, I worked on crews that swung hammers, framing axes, and wielded nail guns. It has been my observation that you're wrong about every carpenter and roofer that I've known. The reason is obvious. A guy can literally put four nails in a shingle with a nail gun in one second. On my roof, they shot six in 1.1 seconds. Even the fastest hand-pounder can't touch those speeds and it's easy with a nail gun. The laziest roofer can put the required number of nails in with a nail gun in the same motion that he put the first nail in with. And because of the way nails for guns are made, they hold slightly better than regular nails, so in fact, I would not be glad that those three nails were put in with a hammer.

    Twenty years ago, I re-roofed my own house. It had been ten or more years since I had done any roofing. I thought I'd blast out my roof in about a day and a half like I did when I was in the business.........and younger. Sigh..........three days later I finished. My back was killing me. If I had hand pounded those nails, I might be still working on that roof.
    True that nail gun goes faster, but the user of the nail gun cannot feel if the nail has found and embedded in a solid base rather than in a knot-hole or decking joint causing a nail to be loose in the decking and shingle. Hopefully the nail would shoot through and the installer catch the mistake and replace the shingle. Up to the mercy and experience of the installer at that point. So there may be multiples of lose nails and improperly secured shingles. Personally a veteran roofer can drive a nail into the roof in one strike, so experience can prove nearly as fast as a gun when adding in the time involved in hose relocation & re-loading of the gun.


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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristi Silber View Post
    Ken - any idea why racking is not good with the newer shingles? Is it because they shouldn't be bent? I can see why you wouldn't want to do it where you're putting in 6 nails, but that's not common up here as far as I know.

    I've done something similar to what you describe, but only one end is left free on alternate courses, in order to slide in the course below it. An alternative is to work up and out from a corner. There is then no need to raise the shingles, but you don't have to move as much as you do if you lay one full course then another.

    http://www.researchroofing.com/Image...leinstall2.jpg
    Guys, no matter what our opinions are on the proper installation of the shingles, the correct methods to install each application of shingles will be plainly posted on each package of shingles we are about to open. Though plainly posted, manufacturers will even warranty slight variances from this. Many logical installers have thought that nailing into the tar strip, or above would be better for a less chance of moisture reaching the shingle fasteners. Is that correct? No. It may reduce moisture reaching the nail but allows more lift and tear possibilities to the shingles. What we may feel as being correct for one reason or another means nothing if the manufacturer states to install differently as they designed, manufactured, sold, and warrantied this product.


  37. #37
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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    but the human body is not made with a rack and pinion onto which the arms are mounted, when you stand in one place and turn to the left to nail a shingle ... and turn to the center to continue nailing another shingle ... and turn to the right for yet another shingle, your arms are always the same length with your hands forming an arc just like the hands of a clock do not make a straight line but instead make a circle as the hands rotate around the center pivot point.
    Oh my, Jerry you have never installed roofing shingles before have you? My arms are never at the same arc or extension at all times for every nail, as I am sure everyone else who has installed shingles would say the same.


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    Default Re: Reveal / over exposure question

    Quote Originally Posted by don agel View Post
    True that nail gun goes faster, but the user of the nail gun cannot feel if the nail has found and embedded in a solid base rather than in a knot-hole or decking joint causing a nail to be loose in the decking and shingle. Hopefully the nail would shoot through and the installer catch the mistake and replace the shingle. Up to the mercy and experience of the installer at that point. So there may be multiples of lose nails and improperly secured shingles. Personally a veteran roofer can drive a nail into the roof in one strike, so experience can prove nearly as fast as a gun when adding in the time involved in hose relocation & re-loading of the gun.
    True that a hand nailer knows if he struck solid or loose, but it has become my sad observation that few installers will add a nail to find wood. Experienced nail gunners usually know if they struck solid, but sadly, like their hand nailing counterparts, few will add a nail to find wood. Pride in workmanship in construction is getting harder to find. As a contractor told me a few days ago, the shingles glue together as one piece anyway, so a few loose nails isn't that big a deal........in his case, he had his roofer put shingles on slat decking and there were hundreds if not a couple of thousand nails in the voids between the slats. I didn't think to ask if the work was done with nail guns or not.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

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