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  1. #1
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    Default wood shingle install

    Ok guys, What do you see. Cedar shingle roof, above standard grade shingle, direct waterfront, 16 years old.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: wood shingle install

    Well, based on your question - what I see is what I think are the nails for the cedar shingles. What I don't see is ... any other nails ... no underlayment nails (I doubt the underlayment is peel-and-stick) and no nails for the composition shingles you said were there. That does not mean the underlayment or the shingles were not nailed ... only that they were not nailed properly (no penetration).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: wood shingle install

    Shingles will have life expectancy shortened since they are placed on solid decking as opposed to spaced planking.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: wood shingle install

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Shingles will have life expectancy shortened since they are placed on solid decking as opposed to spaced planking.
    But being installed over composition shingles doesn't affect the life of the cedar shingles even more?

    Some places require solid roof sheathing - it makes the roof and structure much stronger and more capable of withstanding wind (like nor'easters) and other loads.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: wood shingle install

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Shingles will have life expectancy shortened since they are placed on solid decking as opposed to spaced planking.
    I always believed that as well but have since seen a few 20 + yr old homes here in BC (where it rains a lot) with cedar shakes installed directly on plywood sheathing, doing surprisingly well.

    Joe Klampfer RHI
    www.myinspection.ca
    Pacific Home Inspections

  6. #6
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    Default Re: wood shingle install

    the nails are installed too close together. Two nails per shingle. Those must be some skinny shingles huh?
    These are also the wrong nails. Electroplate galvanized not allowed within 15 miles of salt water


  7. #7
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    Default Re: wood shingle install

    Quote Originally Posted by wayne soper View Post
    the nails are installed too close together. Two nails per shingle. Those must be some skinny shingles huh?
    These are also the wrong nails. Electroplate galvanized not allowed within 15 miles of salt water
    Could be three nails in some shingles?

    You said "direct waterfront", but nothing about being along the ocean.



    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: wood shingle install

    If the underlayment was secured with staples on 1/2 plywood, the staples typically wouldn't be visible on the underside of the decking.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: wood shingle install

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin O'Hornett View Post
    If the underlayment was secured with staples on 1/2 plywood, the staples typically wouldn't be visible on the underside of the decking.
    With staples and tin tags, the staple legs should still have penetrated through the roof sheathing. All fasteners should penetrate through the roof sheathing (there are some exceptions which allow for no penetration, but the roof decking would be 1" thick or better, as I recall ... i.e., 5/4 but not 1x).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: wood shingle install

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    With staples and tin tags, the staple legs should still have penetrated through the roof sheathing. All fasteners should penetrate through the roof sheathing (there are some exceptions which allow for no penetration, but the roof decking would be 1" thick or better, as I recall ... i.e., 5/4 but not 1x).
    In my opinion you are looking at the original roofing nails used to install the 3 tab shingles. Easy to determine with a tape measure if you go back.
    The cedar shingle installer was probably told not to use a fastener that would penetrate through the sheathing.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: wood shingle install

    Quote Originally Posted by Scot Laudeman View Post
    In my opinion you are looking at the original roofing nails used to install the 3 tab shingles. Easy to determine with a tape measure if you go back.
    The cedar shingle installer was probably told not to use a fastener that would penetrate through the sheathing.
    no! new construction 16 years ago almost direct waterfront to ocean.
    Only two nails allowed, unless you are an illegal alien with a nailgun
    Was just offering education, no questions, I know it's wrong


  12. #12
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    Default Re: wood shingle install

    R905.7.5 Application.
    Wood shingles shall be installed according to this chapter and the manufacturer’s installation instructions. Wood shingles shall be laid with a side lap not less than 11/2 inches (38 mm) between joints in courses, and no two joints in any three adjacent courses shall be in direct alignment. Spacing between shingles shall not be less than 1/4 inch to 3/8 inch (6 mm to 10 mm). Weather exposure for wood shingles shall not exceed those set in Table R905.7.5. Fasteners for wood shingles shall be corrosion resistant with a minimum penetration of 1/2 inch (13 mm) into the sheathing. For sheathing less than 1/2 inch (13 mm) in thickness, the fasteners shall extend through the sheathing. Wood shingles shall be attached to the roof with two fasteners per shingle, positioned no more than 3/4 inch (19 mm) from each edge and no more than 1 inch (25 mm) above the exposure line.
    I found no requirements regarding penetration depth of staples used to secure asphalt-impregnated roofing felt underlayment to the roof deck.



  13. #13
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    Default Re: wood shingle install

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin O'Hornett View Post
    I found no requirements regarding penetration depth of staples used to secure asphalt-impregnated roofing felt underlayment to the roof deck.
    You're not looking at all the applicable code sections:
    - R905.2.7.2 Underlayment and high winds.
    - - Underlayment applied in areas subject to high winds [above 110 mph (49 m/s) in accordance with Figure R301.2(4)A] shall be applied with corrosion-resistant fasteners in accordance with manufacturer’s installation instructions. Fasteners are to be applied along the overlap not farther apart than 36 inches (914 mm) on center.
    - - Underlayment installed where the basic wind speed equals or exceeds 120 mph (54 m/s) shall comply with ASTM D 226 Type II, ASTM D 4869 Type IV, or ASTM D 6757. The underlayment shall be attached in a grid pattern of 12 inches (305 mm) between side laps with a 6-inch (152 mm) spacing at the side laps. Underlayment shall be applied in accordance with Section R905.2.7 except all laps shall be a minimum of 4 inches (102 mm). Underlayment shall be attached using metal or plastic cap nails with a head diameter of not less than 1 inch (25.4 mm) with a thickness of at least 32-gauge sheet metal. The cap-nail shank shall be a minimum of 12 gauge (0.105 inches) with a length to penetrate through the roof sheathing or a minimum of 3/4 inch (19 mm) into the roof sheathing.
    - - - Exception: As an alternative, adhered underlayment complying with ASTM D 1970 shall be permitted.

    Figure R301.2(4)A shows that the above applies to more than what people think of - more than just "Florida".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  14. #14
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    Default Re: wood shingle install

    Hmmm... I guess if I lived in an area where the wind speeds are clocked at the mph indicated I might have been aware of it. However, I don't.

    While your citation is accurate, I didn't see anything in the thread which indicated that the original post was based on a property located where such wind speeds would be anticipated - only that it was located near an ocean front.

    Were the requirements cited in effect in 1999 when the post indicates the shingles were installed?


  15. #15
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    Default Re: wood shingle install

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin O'Hornett View Post
    Hmmm... I guess if I lived in an area where the wind speeds are clocked at the mph indicated I might have been aware of it. However, I don't.

    While your citation is accurate, I didn't see anything in the thread which indicated that the original post was based on a property located where such wind speeds would be anticipated - only that it was located near an ocean front.

    Were the requirements cited in effect in 1999 when the post indicates the shingles were installed?
    thanks for the code, pretty much accepted wind speeds on the coast. Goes without saying.
    Not sure on the pre regs. I just let them know what it should be today.
    We have a lot of 200+ year old house here. Can't remember back that far. Maybe Jerry HAHAHAHHAHA


  16. #16
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    Default Re: wood shingle install

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin O'Hornett View Post
    While your citation is accurate, I didn't see anything in the thread which indicated that the original post was based on a property located where such wind speeds would be anticipated - only that it was located near an ocean front.
    Actually, the original post didn't even say it was ocean front, we had to drag that out of him ...

    Were the requirements cited in effect in 1999 when the post indicates the shingles were installed?
    Possibly, and possibly even greater requirements were in place then. There is really no way to answer that question without researching what code was in effect at that time in that area, and then researching that specific code for the specific installation requirements.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  17. #17
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    Default Re: wood shingle install

    Quote Originally Posted by wayne soper View Post
    We have a lot of 200+ year old house here. Can't remember back that far. Maybe Jerry HAHAHAHHAHA
    I think my family had already settled in and had Thanksgiving with the locals before then ... I'll have to get my abacus out and run through the numbers ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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