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  1. #1
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    Default Drip edge modified during gutter install.

    Hi

    I just finished a new roof, new drip edges, fascia. The gutter guys ripped apart my drip edges to put their gutters in. They insist this is correct. The edges were beautiful, they pried it up allover and cut apart all the corners and just poured goop to reseal.

    Am I crazy to think they should have at least ran it by me if they were going to tear apart existing work?

    Thank you

    1-2019-11-02 10.08.03 - Copy.jpg

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Drip edge modified during gutter install.

    That is quite common as gutter installers aren't roofers and don't understand what drip edge is for.

    The gutter installers have mutilated the drip edge should be held responsible for the cost of the roofer to come back and properly repair the damage the gutter installers did - that's the best way gutter installers learn ... and remember ... not to do that again.

    Did the gutter installers also cut notches, and typicslly bend the cut part up out of the way, where they put the gutter spikes/supports? If so, the repair may be to replace the entire drip edge instead of just needing to install new drip edge pieces around each corner (the inside corners as well as the outside corners).

    http://jerrypeck.com/IFCN/IFCN.htm
    (Scroll down to: Roof Covering Assemblies / Drip Edge Damaged by Gutters)

    Jerry Peck
    Construction Litigation Consultant ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Drip edge modified during gutter install.

    In addition to cutting the corners, they took a screwdriver and preyed the drip edge everywhere, leaving all sorts of dents and wave patterns. In some areas they shoved the drip edge so much it forced the torch down roof to come apart from the underlayment.

    Absolutely nuts. I don't see anyway to repair this without taking the whole flat roof off.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Drip edge modified during gutter install.

    Quote Originally Posted by toolguyg View Post
    I don't see anyway to repair this without taking the whole flat roof off.
    That is sometimes the repair option - replace the roof ... more frequently, though, there is a repair option for the roof as they may ... may ... be able to cut the edge of the roof covering back 4-6" or so, remove the edge of the roof covering and the mutilated drip edge, flash in an underlayment from the edge of the roof deck to under the edge of the roof covering which was cut back, install new drip edge, then put down a 12"-16" strip of roof covering from the edge of the new drip edge to over the cut edge of the roof covering all around where they had to repair the roof because of the gutter installers.

    I say "may" because it all depends on the roofing contractor as they are the ones who will be guaranteeing that it does not leak (same guarantee as their original installation, maybe even an additional 5-10 years (the gutter installers get this added to their bill).

    It usually ends with the gutter installers getting a bill for the work which far exceeds what their total contract for the gutters was, and with you having to take them to small claims court to recover the amount, and with you (and the roofing contractor, as part of your deal with them) filing a compliant against the gutter contractor with your state or local contractor licensing people.

    Keep in mind that the more work you want done to make sure it is done correctly, the greater the roofing contractor's bill will be, and the greater the risk of the gutter company not agreeing to pay it and saying "sue me", which you will then need to be willing to do ... do you want to "own" a gutter company because they can't/won't pay you?

    Just letting you know that the outcome is not always in your favor as to repaying you for the costs you spent.

    Another way to address it is, especially if you have not yet paid the gutter company, to have the roofing contractor give you a written cost to do the work, you give that to the gutter company, and the gutter company agrees to give you that gutter installation 'for free ... if you allow us to walk away and not sue us'. Sometimes (all things considered) that may be your best option.

    Being as you are in California, and California may be into licensing similar to what Florida is, and if that contractor is required to be state licensed (or maybe even locally licensed), and if they are not ... their contract with you for payment may be deemed "unenforceable" (i.e., they did the work for "free" if you don't pay them as they have no legal remedy to make you pay).

    From the Florida statutes:
    - http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/.../0489.128.html
    - - 489.128 Contracts entered into by unlicensed contractors unenforceable.?
    - - - (1) As a matter of public policy, contracts entered into on or after October 1, 1990, by an unlicensed contractor shall be unenforceable in law or in equity by the unlicensed contractor.

    Some attorneys have been known to intentionally hire unlicensed contractors to do work for them, then use the above to legally ... yes, "legally" ... not pay for the work (even though they knew the unlicensed contractor was not licensed). A 'dirty trick' some attorneys use, but what better way is there to discourage unlicensed contractors than to have them finish their work and then not get paid for it ... puts many out of business as many/most unlicensed contractors are working 'job to job' just to stay in business - no pay means they can't pay for whatever materials they owe for and whatever help they used and have paid for/have to pay for.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 11-03-2019 at 12:25 PM. Reason: added last part
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Drip edge modified during gutter install.

    Quote Originally Posted by toolguyg View Post
    Absolutely nuts. I don't see anyway to repair this without taking the whole flat roof off.
    I would get the original roofer's opinion (in writing), along with a back-up estimate of repairs from another roofer, as this may get contentious real fast, and someone (gutter installer) needs to step up and pay for the correction.

    If it my brand new roof, I'd be demanding more than a few pieces of new drip edge and extra caulk.
    Make sure you document everything.


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Drip edge modified during gutter install.

    I have had several of these from around Florida, the results vary.

    A common result (the AHJ ALWAYS ... ALWAYS ... gets involved as the contractors contact the AHJ to get a nod of approval) is that the AHJ ALWAYS defends their position of approving it at the final roof inspection (provided final inspection has been done) and in defense of the contractor if gutters were installed after final roof inspection.

    And, so far anyway, that AHJ then 'changes their policy' and begins no longer accepting/approving gutter installers cutting up drip edge like that. That doesn't do my clients any good, but does effect others after I've beat the AHJ up with code references. By the way, I explain that usual outcome to my clients before the ask me to continue for them - that the likely result will be getting something (but not much) from the gutter contractor, and the AHJ will change their policy of accepting that AFTER their house remains "approved" by the AHJ.

    When that happens, I don't charge my client as I understand that my main effort was getting the AHJ on the right page for the future gutter installs.

    Crap happens, I don t need to charge for shoveling that crap to the side so we don't have to keep stepping in it.

    Jerry Peck
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Drip edge modified during gutter install.

    I wouldn't trust a repair. The slope of this roof is so low any repair would create a damn around the edges. The gutter guy was out and really disappointed to hear I disagreed with his work. We had some back and fourth about having a roofer come get an estimate. In the end he handed me my check and said the gutters are free. I don't intend to let him off the hook, I'm trying to get my original roofer out for an estimate.

    Thanks for all the advice.


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Drip edge modified during gutter install.

    Quote Originally Posted by toolguyg View Post
    I wouldn't trust a repair. The slope of this roof is so low any repair would create a damn around the edges. The gutter guy was out and really disappointed to hear I disagreed with his work. We had some back and fourth about having a roofer come get an estimate. In the end he handed me my check and said the gutters are free. I don't intend to let him off the hook, I'm trying to get my original roofer out for an estimate.

    Thanks for all the advice.
    Wow! He trashed your roof for "free" (if you ignore the cost of replacing the roof he probably destroyed)? What a saint.

    Jerry, here in California, at least in the Bay Area, you basically have to come on bent knee to beg a contractor to come out and give you an estimate. Business is apparently extremely good. I don't think many of them are living job-to-job.

    Edited to add: God, that picture is ugly. At least smooth the darn caulk so it looks like you were trying.


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    Default Re: Drip edge modified during gutter install.

    Quote Originally Posted by toolguyg View Post
    Hi

    I just finished a new roof, new drip edges, fascia. The gutter guys ripped apart my drip edges to put their gutters in. They insist this is correct. The edges were beautiful, they pried it up allover and cut apart all the corners and just poured goop to reseal.

    Am I crazy to think they should have at least ran it by me if they were going to tear apart existing work?

    Thank you

    1-2019-11-02 10.08.03 - Copy.jpg
    It's a building code been out since 2012 I think :

    R905.2.8.5 Drip Edge


    A drip edge shall be provided at eaves and rake edges of shingle roofs. Adjacent segments of drip edge shall be overlapped not less than 2 inches (51 mm). Drip edges shall extend not less than 1/4 inch (6.4 mm) below the roof sheathing and extend up back onto the roof deck not less than 2 inches (51 mm). Drip edges shall be mechanically fastened to the roof deck at not more than 12 inches (305 mm) o.c. with fasteners as specified in Section R905.2.5. Underlayment shall be installed over the drip edge along eaves and under the drip edge along rake edges.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Drip edge modified during gutter install.

    [Absolutely nuts. I don't see any way to repair this without taking the whole flat roof off./QUOTE]

    Wait, did you say "flat roof?" The roofing material appears to be asphalt roll or asphalt shingles. In my view neither should be used for a flat roof (other than maybe on chicken coops or dog houses). Is Ice & Water Shield installed under it for the entire roof? Was your roofer licensed or a "fly-by-niter?"????

    In our neck of the woods, the metal material is usually referred to as "gutter apron," a type of drip edge. Drip edge (or D-edge) usually refers to that which is found on the gable rake. Oh, and yes, your install is quite typical for seamless gutters. It's never pretty..... Better to not look there.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Drip edge modified during gutter install.

    Too many things to reply to for quoting each segment.

    A) That's why I said to have the roofer come out as he is the one who will be warranting the roof - if an edge repair works for him ... if not, that's a different ballgame.

    B) Unlicensed contractors frequently live job to job.

    C) "Flat" roof is a common term which should actually be "low slope" roof, and the material mentioned was torch down modified ... which is typically suitable for use down to 1/4 inch per foot slope.

    D) ??? I forgot the other things I was going to include (which is a reason for quoting things, oh well, I made a good start).

    Oh, one was the post with the drip edge overlap: sometimes 2", 3", 4", even 6". That not only applies to new installations, but allows a "repair piece" to be installed over the cut, extending in each direction the required overlap. While this is easy to do for shingle roofs, not so easy with torch down modified ... but potentially possible if the roofer says he can do it (back to his warranty and what he would be allowed to do for a warranted repair ... or even if a tree limb damaged the drip edge and it was "repaired" - you wouldn't replace the entire roof for that, would you?).

    Keeping in mind that many codes require lapped flashing to be sealed together.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 11-06-2019 at 07:16 AM. Reason: Added last part
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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Drip edge modified during gutter install.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    That is quite common as gutter installers aren't roofers and don't understand what drip edge is for.

    The gutter installers have mutilated the drip edge should be held responsible for the cost of the roofer to come back and properly repair the damage the gutter installers did - that's the best way gutter installers learn ... and remember ... not to do that again.

    Did the gutter installers also cut notches, and typicslly bend the cut part up out of the way, where they put the gutter spikes/supports? If so, the repair may be to replace the entire drip edge instead of just needing to install new drip edge pieces around each corner (the inside corners as well as the outside corners).

    http://jerrypeck.com/IFCN/IFCN.htm
    (Scroll down to: Roof Covering Assemblies / Drip Edge Damaged by Gutters)
    BTW, good info at your website. I read your notes on drip edge. R905.2.8.5 in your notes is different than I have. (In your notes you have the drip edge overlap of not less than 3" but the IRC has 2". And another important difference for us in our cold climate, "Underlayment shall be installed over the drip edge along eaves and under the drip edge along rake edges." I saw this one done wrong two days ago.)

    A complicator is what local AHJs may allow. Here I see roofers doing the modifications described by the OP to existing gutter systems and the AHJ signing off. Here, AHJs don't require the gutter system to be reinstalled to properly accommodate the new drip edge when the shingles are replaced. Around here, only one layer of asphalt shingles are allowed so every shingle replacement is a strip off of the old layer(s). Underlayment and drip edges are replaced. About the only time I see edges and gutters done correctly are new construction and simultaneous shingle and gutter replacements.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Drip edge modified during gutter install.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Too many things to reply to for quoting each segment.

    A) That's why I said to have the roofer come out as he is the one who will be warranting the roof - if an edge repair works for him ... if not, that's a different ballgame.

    B) Unlicensed contractors frequently live job to job.

    C) "Flat" roof is a common term which should actually be "low slope" roof, and the material mentioned was torch down modified ... which is typically suitable for use down to 1/4 inch per foot slope.

    D) ??? I forgot the other things I was going to include (which is a reason for quoting things, oh well, I made a good start).

    Oh, one was the post with the drip edge overlap: sometimes 2", 3", 4", even 6". That not only applies to new installations, but allows a "repair piece" to be installed over the cut, extending in each direction the required overlap. While this is easy to do for shingle roofs, not so easy with torch down modified ... but potentially possible if the roofer says he can do it (back to his warranty and what he would be allowed to do for a warranted repair ... or even if a tree limb damaged the drip edge and it was "repaired" - you wouldn't replace the entire roof for that, would you?).

    Keeping in mind that many codes require lapped flashing to be sealed together.
    Torch down. New to me. Must be a southern, warm climate thing. Thanks for the Ed.


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    Default Re: Drip edge modified during gutter install.

    [QUOTE=Jerry Peck;285733]That is sometimes the repair option - replace the roof ... more frequently, though, there is a repair option for the roof as they may ... may ... be able to cut the edge of the roof covering back 4-6" or so, remove the edge of the roof covering and the mutilated drip edge, flash in an underlayment from the edge of the roof deck to under the edge of the roof covering which was cut back, install new drip edge, then put down a 12"-16" strip of roof covering from the edge of the new drip edge to over the cut edge of the roof covering all around where they had to repair the roof because of the gutter installers.

    I say "may" because it all depends on the roofing contractor as they are the ones who will be guaranteeing that it does not leak (same guarantee as their original installation, maybe even an additional 5-10 years (the gutter installers get this added to their bill).

    It usually ends with the gutter installers getting a bill for the work which far exceeds what their total contract for the gutters was, and with you having to take them to small claims court to recover the amount, and with you (and the roofing contractor, as part of your deal with them) filing a compliant against the gutter contractor with your state or local contractor licensing people.

    Keep in mind that the more work you want done to make sure it is done correctly, the greater the roofing contractor's bill will be, and the greater the risk of the gutter company not agreeing to pay it and saying "sue me", which you will then need to be willing to do ... do you want to "own" a gutter company because they can't/won't pay you? :(

    Just letting you know that the outcome is not always in your favor as to repaying you for the costs you spent.

    Another way to address it is, especially if you have not yet paid the gutter company, to have the roofing contractor give you a written cost to do the work, you give that to the gutter company, and the gutter company agrees to give you that gutter installation 'for free ... if you allow us to walk away and not sue us'. Sometimes (all things considered) that may be your best option.

    Being as you are in California, and California may be into licensing similar to what Florida is, and if that contractor is required to be state licensed (or maybe even locally licensed), and if they are not ... their contract with you for payment may be deemed "unenforceable" (i.e., they did the work for "free" if you don't pay them as they have no legal remedy to make you pay).

    It appears the harsh consequence of contracting without a license in California is that a consumer is not legally required to pay a person who is not licensed by the state. It appears in California the contractor cannot legally sue the client for non-payment. The thinking is California does not want a person providing contracting services without a valid license because California does not wish to incentivize these individuals by allowing them to be compensated for work that they should not be completing. A non-licensed "handyman" may be able to bring a cause of action for collection of up to $500, but no more.


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Drip edge modified during gutter install.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duane Thaxton View Post
    It appears the harsh consequence of contracting without a license in California is that a consumer is not legally required to pay a person who is not licensed by the state.
    he statute which I posted is from Florida, but when one considers what is actually going on, state statute or no state statute, the end result could be the same.

    "What is actually going on" a) - Where contractors are required to be licensed, even if only a local business license is the requirement ... and there are many states which do not have contractor licensing for the various trades (licensing requirements vary from state to state, some having very few, maybe even none, to having most trades licensed) ... where contractors are licensed is a key, even a local business license, because if 'no license is required' they cannot be 'contracting without a license'/'doing business without a license' for those areas where only a local business license is required.

    "What is actually going on" b) ... where licenses are required ... is that unlicensed persons are operating outside the law, i.e., "illegally", and when one partakes in the commission of an illegal act, one is typically not allowed to enforce anything related to such illegal activity (such as not being allowed to enforce an illegal contract for illegal work for which they are not licensed when a license is required).

    I would think something like that would apply in most states?

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    Default Re: Drip edge modified during gutter install.

    Yes this is Southern California, almost every flat roof is torch down here. All involved parties have been licensed, insured, bonded and established businesses.


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    Default Re: Drip edge modified during gutter install.

    Quote Originally Posted by toolguyg View Post
    Yes this is Southern California, almost every flat roof is torch down here.
    "Flat" roof ... or "low slope" roof?

    "Flat" roofs are bad news structurally and roofing material-wise (torch down is not, to my knowledge, designed for "flat" roofs - requires a minimum slope of 1/4 inch per foot as I recall).

    Once "flat" roofs sag (everything says slightly over time), water ponds. Ponting water adds weight, which causes more sagging, which ponds more water, which adds more weight, which causes more sagging ... with a common ultimate result being collapse of the roof (I suspect you've seen collapsed roofs for apartment buildings and shopping centers after heavy rains on the news).

    Every roof should have sufficient slope to 'drain dry', typically that is 1/4 inch per foot. If a roof doesn't 'drain dry', the roofing material can prematurely deteriorate and fail.

    Jerry Peck
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    Default Re: Drip edge modified during gutter install.

    To take it one step farther, "flat" or "level"? A 6:12 shed roof can be flat. In fact, the ideal is to normally make all roofs as flat as possible. Now, level is a whole other issue. Or, job security for many of us.

    Jim Robinson
    New Mexico, USA

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    Default Re: Drip edge modified during gutter install.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Robinson View Post
    To take it one step farther, "flat" or "level"? A 6:12 shed roof can be flat. In fact, the ideal is to normally make all roofs as flat as possible. Now, level is a whole other issue. Or, job security for many of us.
    Actually ... "flat" isn't what a roof slope should be ... "in plane", yes.

    Most people don't look at something sloping and think "flat". When they think "flat" it's more likely that whatever they are looking at 'is not' "sloping", such as 'the yard is good and flat' ... where's the HI looks at flat yards as 'not good' because that indicates there is likely poor drainage.

    Yes, some roofs are designed with slopes (roof faces) which are not "In plane" ... ever look at shingles on such a roof? Shingles and designed to be laid in horizontal courses where water flows vertically (but not "plumb") over the shingles, not diagonally across the shingles as happens on those 'not in plane' roof faces (I didn't use "slope" as that is singular and those roof faces have multiple "slopes" depending on how you look at the roof).

    Jerry Peck
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  20. #20
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    Default Re: Drip edge modified during gutter install.

    Hmmmm... Lot of options according to Mirriam Webster

    flat adjective
    flatter; flattest
    Definition
    1a: lying at full length or spread out upon the ground : PROSTRATE - The soldiers were lying flat on the ground.
    b: utterly ruined or destroyed - buildings flat from the blast
    c: resting with a surface against something - Push the chairs flat against the wall.
    2a: having a continuous horizontal surface - the flat landscape of the prairie
    b: being or characterized by a horizontal line or tracing without peaks or depressions - a flat EEG
    3: having a relatively smooth or even surface - a flat computer disk
    4: arranged or laid out so as to be level or even - maps flat on the desk
    5a: having the major surfaces essentially parallel and distinctly greater than the minor surfaces - a flat piece of wood
    b: of a shoe heel : very low and broad - flat shoes for work
    6a: clearly unmistakable - a flat denial
    b(1): not varying : FIXED - a flat rate
    (2): having no fraction either lacking or in excess : EXACT - in a flat 10 seconds
    (3)of a frequency response : not varying significantly throughout its range
    7a: lacking in animation, zest, or vigor : DULL - He spoke in a flat, tired voice.
    b: lacking flavor : TASTELESS - The stew is too flat.
    c: lacking effervescence or sparkle - flat ginger ale
    d: commercially inactive - also : characterized by no significant rise or decline from one period to another - sales were flat
    e: of a tire : lacking air : DEFLATED
    f: chiefly British, of a battery : DEAD, DISCHARGED
    8a(1): of a tone : lowered a half step in pitch
    (2): lower than the proper pitch
    b: of the vowel a : pronounced as in bad or bat
    9a: having a low trajectory (see TRAJECTORY) - made a flat pass that was intercepted
    b: of a tennis stroke : made so as to give little or no spin to the ball
    10: not having an inflectional ending - flat adverbs
    11: of a sail : TAUT
    12a: uniform in hue or shade - figures standing out against a background of flat wash
    b: having little or no illusion of depth
    c: of a photograph or negative : lacking contrast
    d: of lighting conditions : lacking shadows or contours
    e: free from gloss : having a nonreflective finish - a flat paint
    f: TWO-DIMENSIONAL - flat characters
    13: of, relating to, or used in competition on the flat - a flat horse
    14: of a universe : having a mass such that expansion halts only after infinite time and collapse never occurs

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  21. #21
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    Default Re: Drip edge modified during gutter install.

    From the IRC:

    - R903.4 Roof drainage.
    - - Unless roofs are sloped to drain over roof edges, roof drains shall be installed at each low point of the roof.

    If the roof is not sloped (is "flat"), each and every area which holds water ("low point", and which will pond water) "shall" have a roof drain installed.

    If there is any evidence of ponding water (which indicates a "low point") and no roof drain is present there, and the roof is not "sloped to drain over the roof edges", then the required roof drains are not installed. The code gives two options: slope the roof to drain "over the roof edges" ... or ... install roof drains at "each low point".

    Are we now past "what is flat"? Kanas IS "flatter than a pancake": https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/...latter-pancake

    However, because the earth is round (okay, 'sort of round'), then no place on earth is truly flat because of the curvature of the earth?

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 11-07-2019 at 02:06 PM. Reason: Speelin'
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    Default Re: Drip edge modified during gutter install.

    Guys

    just got done with inspection and because of this post would like to share this picture of the drip edge i saw today--looks almost the same--would the same apply to this one as the for mention picture in this post above

    thanks

    cvf

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  23. #23
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    Default Re: Drip edge modified during gutter install.

    Quote Originally Posted by CHARLIE VAN FLEET View Post
    ... would the same apply to this one as the for mention picture in this post
    That's a big 10-4, Charlie.

    Just another version of gutter guys mutilating drip edge to make their job easier.

    I'm not sure if gutter installers just don't know what drip edge if for, or don't care about it because it is in their way - or both ... okay ... it's probably both.

    Did you see the photos in the link I posted?

    While each mutilation is 'different' in some ways, they are all the same in the main way - cutting the drip edge at inside and outside corners, and at the ends of the gutter, to make their gutter installation go easier. Kind of like that photo Gunnar posted about the window and the superintendent's response 'but it's be so much harder' to do it the right way and put the z-flashing in first.

    Jerry Peck
    Construction Litigation Consultant ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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