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  1. #1
    Clinton Rushing's Avatar
    Clinton Rushing Guest

    Default Asphalt/Comp shingle joint allignment/staggering.

    Hey guys, long time no see! Just getting set to go around with a seller/the agents contractor/etc about this and wanted to verify I wasn't crazy.

    Each course should offset about 6 inches to the left/right (depending on how your looking at it) from the course above/below to make a stair stepped pattern where the joints align about every 5th course.

    The one I looked at the other day staggered them, 6 inches to the left, then the next course six inches back to the right, next course joint was then aligned with the course not below it, but every other course.

    Checked the installation instructions and the only mention for the purpose of this is to avoid an unpleasant pattern, but I always thought it was for less probable water penetration. What do you all say and would the latter meet "CODE" where you are?

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Asphalt/Comp shingle joint allignment/staggering.

    I see no reason why being offset either way would cause any problems.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  3. #3
    Clinton Rushing's Avatar
    Clinton Rushing Guest

    Default Re: Asphalt/Comp shingle joint allignment/staggering.

    Just got ahold of CertainTeed (The manufacturer) and they said all was well, it would not void the warranty, it would just look funny (which is why it caught my eye I suppose).

    FYI

    ...
    I still think the stair step method is more solid.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Asphalt/Comp shingle joint alignment/staggering.

    By 'joints' I suspect you are referring to the end slots (ends) of standard 3 tab shingles.

    The main thing is that the slots between the tabs, which includes the end slot (actually half of a slot) are aligned approximately centered on the tab below and the tab above. Being as the tabs on the standard 3 tab shingle are 12" wide (center of slot to center of slot), that puts the slots 6" in from the center of the slot above and below.

    Where the ends of the shingles fall is much less important, i.e., starting off staggering the slots from the rake, or starting off with a full shingle, then half a shingle, then a full shingle; either way offsets the slots by the same 6". That's the critical part.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  5. #5
    Jonathan Clevenger's Avatar
    Jonathan Clevenger Guest

    Default Re: Asphalt/Comp shingle joint allignment/staggering.

    Weather you "stairstep" or offset them back and forth, both ways are fine. I always put them down in a stairstep pattern though.

    This mostly shows up on roofs that used 3-tab shingles, but the shingles will shrink some over time, and you can see bigger gaps going straight up the roof where they offset the shingles back and forth. Not enough to be any type of problem, but I think it looks bad and unprofessional.


  6. #6
    Clinton Rushing's Avatar
    Clinton Rushing Guest

    Default Re: Asphalt/Comp shingle joint allignment/staggering.

    Was an architectural shingle install. I've never been part to anything but the stairstep myself, I've seen guys "rack" them with the 3 tab, just never seen it with Landmark 30's. "It does not look right" is right. By joint I was referring to where the two ends of the shingles came together and am I nuts in thinking with water running straight down that creates more of a weak point where the joints are stacked? Isn't this why ur getting rows of curling on some of these? I don't see that nearly as much with stair stepped installs.

    Now I get to explain to my client why I was "wrong" oh well, learn something new everyday.


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Asphalt/Comp shingle joint alignment/staggering.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clinton Rushing View Post
    By joint I was referring to where the two ends of the shingles came together and am I nuts in thinking with water running straight down that creates more of a weak point where the joints are stacked?

    Now I'm confused.

    Above, it seems you are stating that the joints are one above the other. Previously, it seemed you were stating the joints had shingle tabs between them from the intermediate course.

    ?????????

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  8. #8
    Jonathan Clevenger's Avatar
    Jonathan Clevenger Guest

    Default Re: Asphalt/Comp shingle joint alignment/staggering.

    Jerry, I believe he's worried that with every other joint in line with itself, that it will leak.

    If they're installed properly, even the staggered back and forth way, they won't leak. One bad thing with this type of installation is that you need to not nail the end of one shingle so you can slide the shingle beside it underneath. That in itself is not a problem, but a lot of roofers won't bother to lift up that end, and put a nail in the shingle underneath before nailing the top shingle down. So what happens is every other shingle only has 3 nails instead of 4 in it.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Asphalt/Comp shingle joint alignment/staggering.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan Clevenger View Post
    Jerry, I believe he's worried that with every other joint in line with itself, that it will leak.
    But that's no different than aligning the slots.

    So what happens is every other shingle only has 3 nails instead of 4 in it.
    Or 5 instead of 6 ... except that I've never seen that done. That's only a problem if you rack the roof, if you lay the shingles one after the other across the roof, stagger them on the next course, then lay them across the roof again, then there is nothing covered which needs to be lifted.

    The same when the roof is staggered, it's just that instead of staggering one half tab you stagger one half a shingle.

    Either way, though, that will not cause it to leak.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  10. #10
    Jonathan Clevenger's Avatar
    Jonathan Clevenger Guest

    Default Re: Asphalt/Comp shingle joint alignment/staggering.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post


    That's only a problem if you rack the roof, if you lay the shingles one after the other across the roof, stagger them on the next course, then lay them across the roof again, then there is nothing covered which needs to be lifted.

    The same when the roof is staggered, it's just that instead of staggering one half tab you stagger one half a shingle.

    Either way, though, that will not cause it to leak.
    Working across the roof may be fine, but its just not how things are done. It would take you 3 times as long to do a roof that way.


    I've never put down, or seen shingles where they've staggered them a half of a shingle. 3 tabs should be staggered 1/2 of a tab, and dimensionals should be staggared 6-8 inches.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Asphalt/Comp shingle joint allignment/staggering.

    What y'all are describing is called the "racking method" of shingle installation. Some manufacturer's allow it and some don't.

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  12. #12
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Asphalt/Comp shingle joint allignment/staggering.


  13. #13
    bruce bjorkstrand's Avatar
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    Default Re: Asphalt/Comp shingle joint allignment/staggering.

    I have been installing roofing since 1965 with my father. No I didn't have to walk to school up hill both ways in the winter in Wisconsin BUT I have roofed forever. I was built for speed and what you call racking is fast BUT you can't skip nail every other course of shingle or you have problems. You need to install 4 nails in every shingle, PERIOD! I have never roofed with the staggered system of going across the roof to the end then start over. That takes to much time and nothing is different. You can talk about warranty if you want but I have not found a shingle since the oil embargo that lasted as long as stated on the wrapper. I have been installing metal shingles EXCLUSIVELY for the last 10 years and all on residential roofs. I put my metal roof on 13 years ago and it is still just fine.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Asphalt/Comp shingle joint allignment/staggering.

    I saw this roof this fall in Alaska..... Not sure what they did here , but this building was right next to a bar....

    Dave in NH


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Asphalt/Comp shingle joint allignment/staggering.

    I will try again....

    Dave in Nh

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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Asphalt/Comp shingle joint alignment/staggering.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Belisle View Post
    Not sure what they did here

    Dave,

    I'm guessing that the other end looked the same, only reversed.

    That roof is no longer "square" as in "rectangular", but is now likely a "parallelogram".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: Asphalt/Comp shingle joint allignment/staggering.

    Vertical was our preferred method because it was much easier on steep sloped roofs using toe boards etc. In Texas in 84 they would only allow 5" inch stagger which they claim was for wind resistance. The only way to install was stepped. It left a cool looking pattern though. The key slots went diagonal up the roof then the normal straight up and down.

    If you use the stepped method you could basically lay down the roof with no by-lines. They just seemed to run straight. On racked we pop 10" lines (horizontal) and 29"/35" tape hooked off the rake for by-lines (vertical).

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  18. #18
    Frank Suchodolski's Avatar
    Frank Suchodolski Guest

    Default Re: Asphalt/Comp shingle joint allignment/staggering.

    [quote=Clinton Rushing;34976]Just got ahold of CertainTeed (The manufacturer) and they said all was well, it would not void the warranty, it would just look funny (which is why it caught my eye I suppose).

    FYI

    Don't think that this means anything, because if it leaks because you installed it one way or the other, that is your installation guarantee, CertainTeed's Warranty only covers manufactures defects. So they don't really care how you install it as long as you buy it. This is not just CertainTeed, they (manufacturers) all do it. Some have an installation guarantees but by Certified installers only.
    Racking installations can cause leak problems down the road, especially with the old 3-tab organic shingles.


  19. #19
    Richard Pultar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Asphalt/Comp shingle joint allignment/staggering.

    amazing comments from people that never installed roofing .


  20. #20
    Frank Suchodolski's Avatar
    Frank Suchodolski Guest

    Default Re: Asphalt/Comp shingle joint allignment/staggering.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Pultar View Post
    amazing comments from people that never installed roofing .
    What kind of cop out statement is that, if you have an opinion or a point of view, share it. I have installed my share of roofing and now I inspect roofing, I deal with manufacturers reps and roofers and warranty providers and the only way Laminated Shingle Installations are warranteed are as per manufacturers instructions which are printed on every package. And guess what "racking" or "blocking" or whatever you want to call it, isn't on any package. I have been on a few too many leak calls stemming from "racking" installations.

    Frank Suchodolski, RRO


  21. #21
    Richard Pultar's Avatar
    Richard Pultar Guest

    Default Re: Asphalt/Comp shingle joint allignment/staggering.

    how does racking cause a leak


  22. #22
    Frank Suchodolski's Avatar
    Frank Suchodolski Guest

    Default Re: Asphalt/Comp shingle joint allignment/staggering.

    "Racking" doesn't cause leaks, but as roofs get older it does make them more susceptible to leaks, especially with any organic shingles prone to shrinkage. And I was referring to manufacturers not caring how you install them unless they are supplying an installation guarantee. If the roofer is supplying the guarantee then it is their choice. But as I said all guarantee providers will want it installed as per manufacturers specification, which is staggered on 45 degree angle up the roof.

    Frank Suchodolski, RRO


  23. #23

    Default Re: Asphalt/Comp shingle joint allignment/staggering.

    And guess what "racking" or "blocking" or whatever you want to call it, isn't on any package. I have been on a few too many leak calls stemming from "racking" installations.
    Hi Frank:

    I can't say whether the racking method is on any packaging, but Certainteed is one manufacturer who allows the method.

    Here's a small excerpt:
    Application:
    The recommended application method is the Six-Course, 6" Stepped-Off Diagonal Method found
    on each bundle of shingles. These shingles may also be applied using the 5" Stepped-Off Diagonal Method, or
    the 6" Offset, Single-Column Vertical-Racking Method, instructions for which may be obtained from
    CertainTeed. For Class 4 impact resistance, XT 30 IR shingles must be applied according to the instructions

    indicated above, in a new roof or tear-off application, and
    not by "roofing-over" existing shingles.

    From here: http://www.certainteed.com/resources/xt30irtds.pdf




  24. #24
    Frank Suchodolski's Avatar
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    Default Re: Asphalt/Comp shingle joint allignment/staggering.

    I guess that I'm out of the 3-tab loop and that method would only be on 3-tab, 99.9 percent of my jobs are laminated shingles, but on any inspected job around here the "racking" method is not accepted.

    Frank Suchodolski, RRO


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