Added roof structure on mobile home

[Steve Panting]

I've seen this situation before but not for quite some time.
It's a 1981 mobile home. The inspection is scheduled for tomorrow.
It's a leasehold inside a mobile home park. According to the client,
a sloped roof structure has been added on top of the mobile home.
It is highly likely it is resting on the outside walls of the
mobile home structure. I've seen these before but more
commonly, they have their own structure with outside beams,
6 x 6 posts on concrete footings. Basically, a carport surrounding
the mobile home.
We can get some fairly nasty winds around here. I wonder how it is
anchored down. Naturally, I will be looking for this CSA label.
It's unlikely CSA or the mobile home manufacturer would allow
such a thing. It's unlikely there are any municipal permits. I don't know
whether a permit is required. I don't do permit searches.
Apparently, there was a torch-on covering added on top of the old galvanized
but it is peeling away so they decided to add an extra roof structure.
Curiously, the people who run the mobile home park bought the trailer
from the previous owner and are fixing it up.
It's a private sale so there is no agent to lean on.
What do you boys think?

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[Gunnar Alquist]

I've seen this situation before but not for quite some time.
It's a 1981 mobile home. The inspection is scheduled for tomorrow.
It's a leasehold inside a mobile home park. According to the client,
a sloped roof structure has been added on top of the mobile home.
It is highly likely it is resting on the outside walls of the
mobile home structure. I've seen these before but more
commonly, they have their own structure with outside beams,
6 x 6 posts on concrete footings. Basically, a carport surrounding
the mobile home.
We can get some fairly nasty winds around here. I wonder how it is
anchored down. Naturally, I will be looking for this CSA label.
It's unlikely CSA or the mobile home manufacturer would allow
such a thing. It's unlikely there are any municipal permits. I don't know
whether a permit is required. I don't do permit searches.
Apparently, there was a torch-on covering added on top of the old galvanized
but it is peeling away so they decided to add an extra roof structure.
Curiously, the people who run the mobile home park bought the trailer
from the previous owner and are fixing it up.
It's a private sale so there is no agent to lean on.
What do you boys think?

Hi Steve,

Yeah, it does not sound kosher. I have seen a couple of similar installations, but they have been entirely separately supported. The home itself would not be engineered to support a separate roof structure.

[Gregory Booth]

.........Gunnar is correct, especially if it's a wood framed structure. However it could be an engineered roof-over, although it's unlikely. If the home is on a slab, check behind the skirting to see if the exterior walls have been extended to the slab and if so it might be okay - further investigation would be required. But HUD code homes are never designed to support add-on structures.........Greg

[Jerry Peck]

.........Gunnar is correct,
.
.
But HUD code homes are never designed to support add-on structures.........Greg

The first part is correct.

The second part is correct for roof overs - but newer manufactured homes (mobile homes are manufactured homes) are frequently designed to support one side of a small structure - such as a small covered stoop ... but the only way to know is to look at the installation instructions or contact the manufacturer.

[Gregory Booth]

...........what manufacturer would that be?...........Greg

[Jerry Peck]

...........what manufacturer would that be?...........Greg

For the manufactured homes I inspected for AHJ ... that would be ALL the manufacturers of the ones I looked at.

All one needs to do review the engineering (installation instructions).

Do you have a particular manufacturer in mind which does not?

[Gunnar Alquist]

...........what manufacturer would that be?...........Greg

I believe that what Jerry is saying is that you would need to know the specific engineering of that particular manufacturer. So, if the home you were looking at is a Fleetwood, Cavco, Marlette (whatever), you need to either have the engineering for that home or you need to contact the manufacturer.

Searching manufacturer's engineering is typically beyond the scope of a home inspection. If it were me, I would let the buyer know that I believed this was wrong, tell him/her why and let them know that the manufacturer should be contacted to find out the specifics.

[Gregory Booth]

.............just to clarify, I take exception to the term frequently. I have never, not one time, seen a manufactured home install manual that speaks to special construction to allow attached structures. Nor have I ever seen a DAPIA addendum issued to specify methodology to permit structural additions. I do know that you can (at some factories) request an upgrade to the fascia to better permit fastening the addition of a self-supporting canopy - but you'll only find it documented on the factory order/build sheet. Soooooo, I'm hoping Jerry will help me by answering my question of what factory he finds frequently modifying structural details and associated engineering drawings.........Greg

[Jerry Peck]

Soooooo, I'm hoping Jerry will help me by answering my question of what factory he finds frequently modifying structural details and associated engineering drawings.........Greg

Seems to me that the 'old Greg Booth' has reappeared and is on another snipe hunt ... I heard rustling in those bushes over there and I think I saw a snipe scurrying off to the north ...

Sooooo ..... hopefully Greg will get back on track when he is through chasing snipe,

That track being that, in Florida - as I said, and Greg is not in Florida, hopefully still on planet Earth, though - that manufacturers of newer (been doing it for some time) manufactured homes allow for, and state what can be, attached to the manufactured home.

In the 'old days' many manufacturers used all 2x2 or 2x3 framing, more modern manufactured homes that I've seen (again, for Greg) in Florida have 2x6 running front to back at the top of the walls ... and that allows some things (if Greg recalls, I said small things) to be attached.

Now back to the question Greg did not answer - what manufacturer specifically does not permit any structure to be attached to it?

Greg, you did specifically state that none allows it - name one and provide a link to their installation instructions which says not allowed.

YOU did start this off by stating none allow it ... inquiring minds are curious to see which ones you were referring to.

[Steve Panting]

Thanks for the comments.
The issue of whether the added roof makes the mobile home structure
unsound is a toughie. There were no manufacturers markings on the trailer.
All of the old manufacturer labels had either disappeared or were covered up.
There was a Mobile Home Act sticker allowing a search of the manufacturer.
It's difficult to believe a manufacturer would allow the situation but I'm sure
they're just trying to cover their ass.
There were a bunch of other problems such as the new metal roof
was far below the minimum slope. No idea how the new roof structure was tied down.
No roof penetrations; no attic vents, no plumbing stacks. Only a ridge piece. It was
situated on a side slope. The usual concrete block piers shimmed to the metal frame.
Several footings added probably in 2008 to accommodate anchors. Virtually all of the piers
were not plumb. One rather substantial concrete grade beam installed under the
lower outer wall. Carpenter's level indicate the unit is tilting sideways about 2 inches.
Poly B with plastic fittings and aluminum rings.
Probably some rot in the outside walls. It's been my experience that type of situation
is usually quite localized from minor ponding on the old galvanized roof where it would
start to leak. Part of the bathroom floor replaced along with replacement of some of the
rotten floor joists. Virtually the entire underside was blocked by the vapour barrier
except where access could be found through at least a half a dozen holes.
I think I'm going to depart from my usual practice and ask the Town what they think
about the roof situation. You think you'll be beneficial to my client to recommend
having an engineer look at it?

[Jerry Peck]

I think I'm going to depart from my usual practice and ask the Town what they think about the roof situation.
.
.
You think you'll be beneficial to my client to recommend having an engineer look at it?

Steve,

Top item - That should give your client some good direction in their decision to continue to purchase, negotiate reduction in price, or move on.

Bottom item - Your client will most likely be spending additional money to have someone with a PE behind their name telling them that it is unlikely an approved roof structure up there, probably not worth it unless they need that PE behind the name to move on.

There are various ways to attached things to manufactured homes, depending on the manufactured home and what is being attached, but that roof structure as described is not something I have ever seen allowed to be supported by the manufactured home - free standing as a carport roof over the home, sure, but you are describing an airplane wing attached to the roof of the manufactured home ... setting on the runway waiting for a suitable wind speed and wind direction for take off.

[Gregory Booth]

Seems to me that the 'old Greg Booth' has reappeared and is on another snipe hunt ... I heard rustling in those bushes over there and I think I saw a snipe scurrying off to the north ...

Sooooo ..... hopefully Greg will get back on track when he is through chasing snipe,

That track being that, in Florida - as I said, and Greg is not in Florida, hopefully still on planet Earth, though - that manufacturers of newer (been doing it for some time) manufactured homes allow for, and state what can be, attached to the manufactured home.

In the 'old days' many manufacturers used all 2x2 or 2x3 framing, more modern manufactured homes that I've seen (again, for Greg) in Florida have 2x6 running front to back at the top of the walls ... and that allows some things (if Greg recalls, I said small things) to be attached.

Now back to the question Greg did not answer - what manufacturer specifically does not permit any structure to be attached to it?

Greg, you did specifically state that none allows it - name one and provide a link to their installation instructions which says not allowed.

YOU did start this off by stating none allow it ... inquiring minds are curious to see which ones you were referring to.

.........the derogatory tone of your response is typical of when you know you're wrong and just hate to be questioned. If you would go back and read what has been posted you would find that you said that I was mistaken in my assertion that frequent, factory allowance of attached structures is not the case. I simply asked which manufacturer did allow it?

That was your opportunity to respond professionally and help me, and others know that there are factories out there that do specifically allow for that. At that point you were off and running with your typical snotty diatribe. I'm pretty sure you consider yourself a consummate professional and I will readily acknowledge that you're a very sharp guy - but you sure diminish your stature with your childish response

Sooooooooo, once again, I ask for the name of one factory, that frequently allows for structural attachment to their home - and so states in the install instructions.......Greg

[Jerry Peck]

.........the derogatory tone of your response ...

... reflected the derogatory tone of your response.

... is typical of when you know you're wrong and just hate to be questioned.

That logic of yours indicates that you must realize that you are wrong as you are you think it is typical when being questioned, and you are being questioned ... but you are not answering the question as yet.

If you would go back and read what has been posted you would find that you said that I was mistaken in my assertion that frequent, factory allowance of attached structures is not the case. I simply asked which manufacturer did allow it?

And like all good readers, I am asking you to back up what you said ... but you either cannot or will not, which may indicate that you cannot.

That was your opportunity to respond professionally and help me, and others know that there are factories out there that do specifically allow for that.

Agreed, that was your opportunity to respond professionally and show all of us that you do know what you are talking about, but, instead, you keep throwing our red herrings.

Soooo .... are you going to be professional and provide the documentation which shows that all manufacturers do not permit it? Or will you keep throwing out red herrings hoping to evade the question?

The choice is yours.

[Steve Panting]

Not surprisingly, the town says you need a permit for an added roof structure.
They say it has to be "engineered".
Around here, mobile homes do not fall under the Building Code. However,
the stuff that is attached does fall under the Code.

[Gregory Booth]

Not surprisingly, the town says you need a permit for an added roof structure.
They say it has to be "engineered".
Around here, mobile homes do not fall under the Building Code. However,
the stuff that is attached does fall under the Code.

............pretty much what I said, before Jerry wanted to take exception with my reply.......Greg

[Gregory Booth]

Jerry...........you must be referring to my post #5, where I made that incredibly nasty comment: "what manufacturer would that be?". That's an incendiary statement if I ever heard one In any event, I've got too much stuff to do that does not include carrying-on with you so I'm going to abbreviate my response.


Currently I'm working on a couple of projects that have me referring to install instructions for Marlette, Champion and Commodore homes, so these are on my desk - there's probably install manuals for at least 15 others in my file. In each of these manuals (as in every one that I have ever used) you'll find a section listed as Attachments or Site-built Structures. To paraphrase these sections, they state that any additions must be specifically designed for that home. Some sections are very expansive, and some are one-liners. Some also contain the statement that any such design modifications have to be DAPIA approved. If you feel the need to see the actual documents, by all means look them up - I'm not doing your homework for you.

Soooooooo, that brings us back to my original, nasty question: what manufacturer frequently states that they allow attachments to their homes (without specific engineering)? ........Greg

[Jerry Peck]

Currently I'm working on a couple of projects that have me referring to install instructions for Marlette, Champion and Commodore homes, so these are on my desk - there's probably install manuals for at least 15 others in my file. In each of these manuals (as in every one that I have ever used) you'll find a section listed as Attachments or Site-built Structures. To paraphrase these sections, they state that any additions must be specifically designed for that home.

Greg,

Read more carefully.

From the Marlette installation guide (the first and only one I looked at which you provided): http://www.marlettehomes.com/mfgdocs...20-%203-11.pdf (on the bottom of page 114 / file page 115 of 149)

Read under that very same section you referred to - it not only allows a site built structure added to the manufactured home, but gives some specifics (the allowances and specifics will vary from manufacturer's guide to manufacturer's guide - but this is from your own reference):

"A dormer roof can be installed on the home to match the pitch of the addition’s roof. The shingles below the dormer must be removed and the dormer must be vented properly.
The dormer weight shall be no more than 5 psf and distributed uniformly over the roof trusses of the home. Connections may be made to attach the dormer to the home, but not be used to support the roof loads of the addition. The dormer shall be shingled, flashed and sealed properly to prevent leaks (follow shingle manufacturer’s instructions and ARMA guidelines for shingle valley applications).
The manufacturer is providing the above information as an accommodation only and without consideration. Accordingly, by this letter the manufacturer extends no warranties or representation either expressed or implied with regard to the recommendations herein."

That Marlette installation guide specifically allows a dormer to be site built and added to the manufactured home (to match the slope of the addition's roof). You would need to carefully read each installation guide to see what is not ... and what is ... allowed to be attached to and/or actually built onto the manufactured home ... any your claimed reference of 'not allowed' shows that there is a specifically permitted option.

You should be doing as I did when I inspected manufactured homes being sets up - carefully read the installation guide ... while they are all 'basically the same' ("similar" is a better word), they are also "not the same" as each has their own intricacies.

The devil is in the details.

[Gregory Booth]

...............finally, a rational, polite response - thank you. Just to clarify the all-important details, the dormer is the ONLY item specified as a site added item and it's stated as being intended for the bridging attachment of a self-supporting structure - PERIOD. It in no-way offers exemption for the attachment of anything else without design approval. You are welcome to have the last word - but I'm done........Greg

[Jerry Peck]

Greg,

So you are acknowledging that you were incorrect, that it is based on what the manufacturer's installation instructions state is permitted ... which is what I said.

That first example which you gave and I checked does allow site built structure to be attached ... within what the installation instructions allow - cool that you recognize that and acknowledge same.