Repair for cut joist

[mathew stouffer]

Would you consider this an acceptable repiar for a floor joist which has been cut.

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[Bruce King]

No, no engineer would likely design or approve of that and it could be easily removed by a homeowner needing space.

[Bruce Breedlove]

Mathew,

If I were you I would recommend a SE inspect that joist and design a repair. No way that "repair" is adequate. I doubt the 2X4 top plate oriented along its weak axis has the bending strength for the loads imposed by the end of that cut joist. The 2X4 studs need lateral support because they will probably deflect under load and single studs very, very, very likely are underdesigned for the loads (i.e., posts would be more appropriate). And there is most likely not a footing below the slab where the support studs are bearing on the slab.

You don't need to (and really shouldn't) explain all the reason why that "repair" is wrong. Simply recommend a SE and move on.

[mathew stouffer]

Thanks.

[Jack Feldmann]

While not pretty, it may not be all that far off.
What they did was build a mini wall under the joist. True it does not have a double top plate, but it does have a bottom plate and a top plate. Also, we don't know if there is a footing, but we also don't know what kind of load is above either.

When I see altered floor joists, I call out for a repair, and hardly ever call out for an engineer.

[Raymond Wand]

Why would you need an engineer? Its a temporary brace, likely achieving what it was installed to do. However, there are better methods of fixing this concern that do not require the services of an engineer, such as doubling the joist.

[A.D. Miller]

You don't need to (and really shouldn't) explain all the reason why that "repair" is wrong. Simply recommend a SE and move on.

BB: Agreed.

[Fred Weck]

Although ugly there is nothing wrong with this repair and it does not need an engineer to review it, it falls in the prescriptive requirements of the IRC.
There is a footing underneath the sill plate.
The sill plate is treated.
The floor joist has at least 1-1/2 inches of bearing.
A single top plate is allowed.
The stud height is OK.

[mathew stouffer]

Thanks. I didn't say anything about it.

[A.D. Miller]

it falls in the prescriptive requirements of the IRC.

FW: Perhaps I got a bad copy of the IRC. Mine does not include prescriptive repairs for plumber fuuckups [sic].

There is a footing underneath the sill plate.

FW: Again you seem to be better equipped than I. My browser does not support x-ray viewing of photos.

[Rick Cantrell]

"My browser does not support x-ray viewing of photos."

Aaron, you really should upgrade your browser.

[Fred Weck]

FW: Perhaps I got a bad copy of the IRC. Mine does not include prescriptive repairs for plumber fuuckups [sic].
No, but does have requirenmnts for how to build a wall.



FW: Again you seem to be better equipped than I. My browser does not support x-ray viewing of photos.

Don't need x-ray vision to see the huge chunk of concrete it is sitting on.

[Raymond Wand]

Some folks need to have their eyes tested and their speeling corrected.

[Wayne Carlisle]

I don't see anything wrong with the repair.

Why do HI always holler SE SE SE!!??

This is a simple fix!

There appears to be about 12" of concrete that the wall is setting on with additional concrete below that. The stud is directly below the cut joist. It may need to a doubled stud, but that is all I can see it needs.

Why throw out the additional cost of an engineer? Some things are just common sense.

[A.D. Miller]

Why do HI always holler SE SE SE!!??

WC: It is not the job of the HI to specify repairs.

[Wayne Carlisle]

But if the repair is already in place isn't it a HI's call to comment about the repair? Or is that where you refer to a SE if a HI is not comfortable with the repair?

[A.D. Miller]

But if the repair is already in place isn't it a HI's call to comment about the repair? Or is that where you refer to a SE if a HI is not comfortable with the repair?

WC: My comment would have been along the lines of: "An over-bored floor joist was observed in the crawl space. Repair of this joist has been attempted. The sufficiency of this repair should be verified by a structural engineer prior to closing escrow on this home."

You may feel comfortable taking responsibility for someone else's repair work. I do not. It is just that simple.

Besides, even engineers need to eat.

[Wayne Carlisle]

I'll go along with that.

In my opinion though I would accept the repair as adequate. This repair may have been in place umpteen years and still working.

[A.D. Miller]

In my opinion though I would accept the repair as adequate.

WC: In your profession that may be appropriate. To accept or reject repairs is not for the generalists, but the specialists.

This repair may have been in place umpteen years and still working

WC: While this may be so, the HI has no way to verify this. Addi tonally, the fact that something has not yet failed does not prove up its adequacy.

[Raymond Wand]

But if the repair is already in place isn't it a HI's call to comment about the repair? Or is that where you refer to a SE if a HI is not comfortable with the repair?

The repair is not done to a standard commonly seen in the field by a professional ie. and engineer would never recommend such a simplistic repair.

Most astute buyers will also want to know what type of repairs will be required. Certainly not offering your guidance in my opinion is not serving the client all to well.

[Wayne Carlisle]

The repair is not done to a standard commonly seen in the field by a professional ie. and engineer would never recommend such a simplistic repair.

Why heck no! They have to go back to the office and design some crazy abstract form of a repair to justify their coming out to look at a repair that isn't needed!

[Fred Weck]

Why heck no! They have to go back to the office and design some crazy abstract form of a repair to justify their coming out to look at a repair that isn't needed!

Amen Brother!!

[James Bohac]

I'll have to agree with AD!
Although this repair may be adequate and might probably never have a problem! Which I would have stated to my client. I would also advise him that I am not a structural engineer and that he may wish to consult one!

[Fred Weck]

An engineer is not needed. If you don't like what was done here, go to 2006 IRC section R502.10:

R502.10 Framing of openings.

Openings in floor framing
shall be framed with a header and trimmer joists. When the
header joist span does not exceed 4 feet, the header
joist may be a single member the same size as the floor joist.
Single trimmer joists may be used to carry a single header joist
that is located within 3 feet of the trimmer joist bearing.
When the header joist span exceeds 4 feet, the
trimmer joists and the header joist shall be doubled and of sufficient
cross section to support the floor joists framing into the
header. Approved hangers shall be used for the header joist to
trimmer joist connections when the header joist span exceeds 6
feet. Tail joists over 12 feet long shall be
supported at the header by framing anchors or on ledger strips

not less than 2 inches by 2 inches.

There is your prescriptive repair

[A.D. Miller]

There is your prescriptive repair

FW: Surely you jest.

[Bruce Breedlove]

In my opinion though I would accept the repair as adequate. This repair may have been in place umpteen years and still working.

Then again the floor may not have been loaded to anything close to its design loads since that "repair" was made. I wonder what would happen if, directly above this "repair", someone installed a California King water bed (1500 pounds), a 180-gallon aquariums (1800 pounds) or a grand piano (1300 pounds). I wonder if that "repair" could support the dead load AND the live load of that grand piano and the four or five men it takes to move it. What if the owner threw a party and the room above the "repair" was full of people dancing elbow-to-elbow?

Sure, the "repair" may have held for umpteen years but it probably has never been tested.

[Fred Weck]

FW: Surely you jest.

AD: I jest not. It is what should have been done in the first place.

[Bruce Breedlove]

Fred,

The opening that IRC section refers to is an opening in the floor itself (e.g., a stair opening), not a hole in a joist.

[Jack Feldmann]

Bruce,
Even the original joist may have trouble with some of the loads you are describing.
I went back and looked at the first photo. I would have to assume that just the visible chunk of concrete under that plate, would probably calc out to be adequate for a footing under the small stud wall under the joist.
I think that calling out for an engineer for this repair is way overkill. IMHO

[Bruce Breedlove]

Bruce,
Even the original joist may have trouble with some of the loads you are describing.
I went back and looked at the first photo. I would have to assume that just the visible chunk of concrete under that plate, would probably calc out to be adequate for a footing under the small stud wall under the joist.
I think that calling out for an engineer for this repair is way overkill. IMHO

Jack, I gave those items and weights as examples of the types of things people put in a house. They should be fine if the loads are distributed so they don't exceed the design loads of the floor system.

I took another look at that first photo and you are right. I missed the hunk of concrete. I assumed the "repair" was supported by the slab. My bad.

[mathew stouffer]

There is a huge jetted tub sitting on it

[Fred Weck]

Fred,

The opening that IRC section refers to is an opening in the floor itself (e.g., a stair opening), not a hole in a joist.

You're kidding me right?

The repair would be the same as an opening in the floor after you cut the joist.

Let us assume that the plumber decided "I shouldn't cut this massive hole in the joist. What should I do? I know I'll header the joist off on either side of my pipe, and I won't have to hire an engineer to tell me to do the same thing."

[Bruce Breedlove]

Fred,

So just how much of that cut joist are you proposing to header around? If it's more than 16" then the subfloor may be overspanned. You will probably get quite a deflection (if not outright failure) if a leg of that grand piano or waterbed happens to be sitting in the middle of that space that you headered around.

It seems like an awful lot more work to make two cuts at the joist and header it off than to simply sister the joist. Plus a properly sister joist will be much more structurally sound than a headered off joist with unsupported subflooring in the middle of it.

[Fred Weck]

Bruce,
From the close up photo it is hard to tell if the pipe extends past both sides of the joist, so sistering it may or may not work.

It's a 3 or 4 inch pipe, the headered opening wouldn't need to be much bigger.

If there is a piano leg in the middle of the plumbing fixture they have bigger problems then this forum is going to solve.

[Markus Keller]

The repair is bare minimum garbage work. Will it hold, probably. Should a repair be better built and installed, Yes. Does it require an engineer, realistically No. Unfortunately we don't have any control over the load on that joist and surrounding area, so Yes maybe an SE might be needed.
I don't like calling for an SE because most of the time it's a waste of time and money. Since we aren't in the business of prescribing repairs during an HI, someone has to wear that hat. Do you want Joe scumbag contractor telling your client how to install a better support wall and sister the joist or someone with some edumacation and a license?
I have to say I'm really amazed and starting to get a bit annoyed at how many guys on this board are finding crap work to be acceptable for their clients. Is it just that much easier to 'check the box' rather than writing a few sentences to explain things to a client? Maybe you've always worked in a crap install world and don't know any better. I'm sorry but I am not interested in promoting minimum standards to my clients. I provide clients sound options for their needs. If they choose to hire Joe scumbag to slap it together that is their choice. You don't think every contractor in town isn't bad mouthing you when they see that and the client tells them the HI said it was Ok?
Grow-up and stop hiding behind petty rationalizations as to why it's Ok.

[Ken Amelin]

A simple header support will provide the reinforcement required (as described in Fred's response ie; IRC 502.10

Cut joists for plumbing is common and they are handled by simple boxed header - framing details. To call for a structural engineer is way overboard, not required and totally a "Chicken Little" cop-out.

Professional, experienced home inspectors should be familiar with framed opening, re-reinforcement details for drain pipes. Personally, I would be embarrassed to report to my client that a licensed engineer is required to determine the solution to that cut joist.

[John Kogel]

I have a question. Who would want that under their jacuzzi tub?

If I was an engineer, I would call for a sheet of 1/2" plywood screwed to those studs and the header, screws 6" apart.
Then you could call it a wall.
Matthew, have your client send me his CC#.