Egress - replacement windows

[Tom Cissell]

How do you guys handle this. I inspected a home that has nice double hung replacement windows. The windows are made to fit the original window space but the sill of the new window sits about two inches above the original sill. The height of the sash is 18-1/2" just under the required 20" egress requirement for bedrooms.

Is it up to my client, e.g. if he feels he and his family can slip through the window it is OK? Or should it be a deal breaker because it might effect resale value?

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[Steven Turetsky]

How do you guys handle this. I inspected a home that has nice double hung replacement windows. The windows are made to fit the original window space but the sill of the new window sits about two inches above the original sill. The height of the sash is 18-1/2" just under the required 20" egress requirement for bedrooms.

Is it up to my client, e.g. if he feels he and his family can slip through the window it is OK? Or should it be a deal breaker because it might effect resale value?

Are you a Home Inspector? If you are, do you usually decide what makes or breaks a "deal"?

I think you should just include the facts in your report and let the person that hired you decide what makes or breaks a deal.

[Chris McIntyre]

First of all I assume you are talking about the opening size and not the sash size, and second if you are measuring from the sill I'm assuming you are measuring the hight of the opening which is 24" min., 20" is min. width.

[Jerry Peck]

the hight of the opening which is 24" min., 20" is min. width.

Actually, it is one or the other, not both, if the opening is 24" high, then 20" wide is not wide enough. Likewise, if the opening is 20" wide, then 24" is not high enough.

The minimum size of the window is 5.7 square feet ... 5.7 square feet = 820.8 square inches ... 820.8 square inches / 20" width = 41.04" minimum opening height ... 820.8 square inches / 24" high = 34.2" minimum opening width.

There is an allowed reduction to 5.0 square feet if certain conditions are met: a) the bottom of the opening is not greater than 44" above the floor inside and is not greater than 44" above the ground outside. If either is greater than 44", then the minimum opening size is 5.7 square feet.

[Tom Cissell]

I miss stated the requirements. 24" high 20" wide. I am a new home inspector and in my report I state each problem and a recommendation such as "Have licensed electrician . . ." I am trying to decide whether to recommend that they insist on new windows (which won't happen) or make sure they can fit through the ones they have. They are looking for guidance. I guess what I am asking is if your client asked you your recommendation what would you say.

[Jerry Peck]

I miss stated the requirements. 24" high 20" wide. I am a new home inspector and in my report I state each problem and a recommendation such as "Have licensed electrician . . ." I am trying to decide whether to recommend that they insist on new windows (which won't happen) or make sure they can fit through the ones they have. They are looking for guidance. I guess what I am asking is if your client asked you your recommendation what would you say.

Tom,

You cannot insist on anything, and your client cannot insist on anything. Your reports should not address that they insist on anything.

You should write the undersized windows up in your report as an item which needs to be corrected. It is then up to your client to address the windows and: a) take a credit for the non-conforming windows; b) insist that the windows be replaced with conforming windows - are they need to be willing to walk away as they cannot "insist" that anything be done; c) trade the windows for something else; d) accept the windows as they are; e) use the windows to the best advantage they can when negotiating the compensation for items in the report.

Depending on the size of the windows and the construction of the house, installing correctly sized windows may be quite expensive. Make your client aware of that, it is up to your client to do what they feel is best for them and their family.

There are limitations on what the home inspector can do beyond educating their client. And educating their client fully is the most important thing you can do, and that does not mean doing what some real estate friendly home inspectors do - write something in the report then verbally down play it so the client thinks it is a small item.

[Gunnar Alquist]

This is not a resale issue, it is a potential safety issue. If someone cannot get out of the house during a fire as a result of undersized windows... Your clients need to understand that the only thing you can recommend is that they correct the windows. Aside from the potential for tragedy, if you recommend anything else, YOU will be fingered in a lawsuit. "If I had know this might result in the death of my (wife, child, dog, whatever), then I never would have bought the house".

[Tom Cissell]

Thank you guys. I appreciate all the input. I will straightforwardly inform my clients of the issue. I won't down play it.

[Steven Turetsky]

Thank you guys. I appreciate all the input. I will straightforwardly inform my clients of the issue. I won't down play it.

Straightforward=yes
Downplay=no
Overstate=no

Inform your clients what the code states, and that the windows are undersized according to code.

[Darren Miller]

Be careful how you word your report if your town/state has a 're-hab' code.

Here's what I say about undersized bedroom windows.-

The bedroom windows are NOT large enough for today's fire emergency escape & rescue standards (At least 1 window per bedroom must have a minimum opening that is 24" high and 20" wide with a net opening of at least 5.7 square feet, or 5.0 Square feet if on 1st floor level). This means if a window opening is 24 inches high, it must be 34 1/2 inches wide to meet the 5.7 sq ft. While they probably met standards when the house was constructed, you should consider upgrading to meet today's safety requirements. Now, to make things more confusing, the NJ Re-hab code allows you to replace these windows with the same exact size windows; however, you cannot make them any smaller, and if you make them larger than the existing size, they then must meet the above mentioned requirements.

[Tom Cissell]

Thanks Darren! appreciate the narrative.

[William Cline]

Hi Tom;
In California there is no rehab rule. Those replacement windows for the last 20 years have been required to meet 24" high, 20" wide and 5.7 SF unless within 44" of the ground and the inside floor. This is not actually for the leaving of the structure, but for fire/rescue with tanks on to get into the room. Notice these windows are required for sleeping areas, not living rooms and dining rooms.
Personally, Iwould tell the client they do not meet the requirements and why. The decisions after that are theirs.

[Kerry Staudt]

Be careful how you word your report if your town/state has a 're-hab' code.

Here's what I say about undersized bedroom windows.-

The bedroom windows are NOT large enough for today's fire emergency escape & rescue standards (At least 1 window per bedroom must have a minimum opening that is 24" high and 20" wide with a net opening of at least 5.7 square feet, or 5.0 Square feet if on 1st floor level). This means if a window opening is 24 inches high, it must be 34 1/2 inches wide to meet the 5.7 sq ft. While they probably met standards when the house was constructed, you should consider upgrading to meet today's safety requirements. Now, to make things more confusing, the NJ Re-hab code allows you to replace these windows with the same exact size windows; however, you cannot make them any smaller, and if you make them larger than the existing size, they then must meet the above mentioned requirements.

I see NJ allows you to replace the windows with like size windows. Does anyone know what Pennsylvania has to say?

[David Bertrams]

Actually, it is one or the other, not both, if the opening is 24" high, then 20" wide is not wide enough. Likewise, if the opening is 20" wide, then 24" is not high enough.

The minimum size of the window is 5.7 square feet ... 5.7 square feet = 820.8 square inches ... 820.8 square inches / 20" width = 41.04" minimum opening height ... 820.8 square inches / 24" high = 34.2" minimum opening width.

There is an allowed reduction to 5.0 square feet if certain conditions are met: a) the bottom of the opening is not greater than 44" above the floor inside and is not greater than 44" above the ground outside. If either is greater than 44", then the minimum opening size is 5.7 square feet.

If it is greater than 44" above the floor, it is a code violation.

[William Cline]

David is right. The sill height must be 44" or less to floor to meet the code, requiring the 5.7 sf opening. You can only use the 5.0 sf exemption if the distance to dirt on the outside is 44" or less. The requirements of 24" min. height and 20" min. width still apply. You must then increase one or both opening measurements to meet the 5.0 or 5.7 SF requirements.

[Jerry Peck]

If it is greater than 44" above the floor, it is a code violation.

David,

You are referring to the interior height of the sill above the floor. The sill of the opening (the bottom of the actual opening) is not allowed to be higher than 44" above the floor - this is for egress from the interior.

I was referring to the exterior height above the ground. The access from the exterior for rescue is different. Somewhere I saw a commentary detail showing that if the bottom of the opening is greater than 44" above the ground outside, the the size reduction from 5.7 sf to 5.0 sf is no longer applicable as the firefighter needs to pace a ladder in the window and the additional opening size makes allowances for the ladder and still has adequate remaining opening size for the firefighter with full gear to enter and make a rescue. Right now I have been trying to find that detail showing the 44" above ground exterior height going from 5.0 sf to 5.7 sf, but do not have it on this computer.

The only commentary I have on this computer is from the 2003 IRC and part of the commentary on this section simply states this:
- By requiring a minimum net clear opening size of the least 5.7 square feet (0.53 m2), the code provides for an opening of adequate dimensions.
Where the opening occurs at grade level, the opening need be only 5 square feet (0.46 m2) due to the increased ease of access from the exterior.

That part of the commentary is explaining why the reduction to 5.0 sf is allowed. The other commentary and accompanying drawing showed it better and explained why it is 44" or less above the exterior grade which allows for that reduction to 5.0 sf.

You are referring to something completely different than I am.

[Jerry Peck]

David is right. The sill height must be 44" or less to floor to meet the code, requiring the 5.7 sf opening. You can only use the 5.0 sf exemption if the distance to dirt on the outside is 44" or less. The requirements of 24" min. height and 20" min. width still apply. You must then increase one or both opening measurements to meet the 5.0 or 5.7 SF requirements.

William,

"You can only use the 5.0 sf exemption if the distance to dirt on the outside is 44" or less."

You are saying something similar to what I am saying except that your wording implies an incorrect statement, one that I suspect you did not intend your wording to imply - unless I am reading it totally not as you meant it.

"The requirements of 24" min. height and 20" min. width still apply. You must then increase one or both opening measurements to meet the 5.0 or 5.7 SF requirements."

The 24" minimum height *always* applies. The 20" minimum width *always* applies. The 5.7 sf *always* applies - EXCEPT (okay, then it is not *always* 5.7 sf) EXCEPT when the bottom of the sill is at grade level.

Now ... define "at grade level".

From the 2003 IRC Commentary:
- "Where the opening occurs at grade level, the opening need be only 5 square feet (0.46 m2) due to the increased ease of access from the exterior."

[William Cline]

Thank you Jerry,
Yes the minimums still apply, the 44" to interior floor still applies and grade level opening is found in the definitions (chapter 2 of the IRC) as an opening within 44" of the dirt.

[Jerry Peck]

the 44" to interior floor still applies and grade level opening is found in the definitions (chapter 2 of the IRC) as an opening within 44" of the dirt.

(slaps forehead with hand) Duh!

I should have looked there, but did not as that was not where I found it - that would be what the commentary drawing I saw was referring to, though.

Many inspectors forget about measuring the height from exterior grade to the window sill opening. While it does not affect the window sill opening height measured inside, it does affect the minimum opening size required.

[Richard Burkard]

In some states, including Virginia, they allow you to count the upper window section of a double hung window toward the egress requirements, as long as you don't need a tool to remove this window section. Virginia has ammended the IRC.

If you are not a building code certified in your state, I would make note of what you saw, without an opion.

[Richard Burkard]

In some states, including Virginia, they allow you to count the upper window section of a double hung window toward the egress requirements, as long as you don't need a tool to remove this window section. Virginia has ammended the IRC.

If you are not a building code certified person in your state, I would make note of what you saw, without an opion, incase you are wrong.

[William Cline]

Hi Richard,
Seems like a step backwards for Virginia to amend in this fashion. So the rescue personnel coming to get your limp body from the burning building now has to contend with the lower sash which they have to remove to get to the upper sash ,which may have one of a dozen release mechanisms, fiddle with that to get access. That possibly after having to release the security bars. Hope someone is still alive. Is this possibly an exception intended for existing or historic houses?

[Richard Burkard]

Most double hung windows have two clips that you push and the window swings in for easy cleaning. Both window sashes come out or stack pretty easily for an adult resident to escape. If a fireman wants in, he'll have an ax or tool to get in. What does a fireman do if a single hung window is closed and locked?

[Jerry Peck]

Most double hung windows have two clips that you push and the window swings in for easy cleaning. Both window sashes come out or stack pretty easily for an adult resident to escape. If a fireman wants in, he'll have an ax or tool to get in. What does a fireman do if a single hung window is closed and locked?

Totally wrong and totally unsafe, but hey, if Virginia wants to use that as a population control method an to reduce breeding of those not smart enough ... rr ... not quick enough ... far be it from me to intercede.

[Richard Burkard]

Some of you disagree with Virginia's code concerning bedroom escape egress windows. Well, I can tell you there is a lot of room for improvement in the IRC and a lot of state codes. For instance, what good is an escape egress window if the lock is at 64 to 70 inches above the floor in a childs room? Some States have a maximum height of 54" inches above the floor for the window lock and many states do not have any restrictions.

Do you know that the 2009 IRC calls for all new homes to be fire sprinklered? Most States have ammended their codes to eliminate this requirement. You all saw 110 homes burn to the ground in Queens in New York during Hurrican Sandy. Thank God no one was hurt.
Look inward at your own State, before you critisize another. You might be suprized what you find.

[William Cline]

You are right Richard,
We all face particular code issues in each state. It is not a perfect execution, though it is an intent to do the right thing. Apologize for singling Vermont out. As a living document it will change and hopefully improve.

[Jerry Peck]

Look inward at your own State, before you critisize another. You might be suprized what you find.

Not surprised what I will find, but that in no way should stop anyone from pointing out a DUMB IDEA from another state.

If you don't think that is a DUMB IDEA ... then this is lost on you.

[Sandy Keeping]

I miss stated the requirements. 24" high 20" wide. I am a new home inspector and in my report I state each problem and a recommendation such as "Have licensed electrician . . ." I am trying to decide whether to recommend that they insist on new windows (which won't happen) or make sure they can fit through the ones they have. They are looking for guidance. I guess what I am asking is if your client asked you your recommendation what would you say.

check with local fire dept. thats what i do.

[Rolland Pruner]

I would not put (code says), I would put typical standards are such and such, have an applicable contractor evaluate and advise on corrections needed.

MOST Property inspectors are not code compliant inspectors, by saying this it would be presumed your know all the codes and could get you introuble in the future.

[erika krieger]

The 2012 IRC has this provision in Appendix J:

• AJ401.2 Door and window dimensions.

• Minor reductions in the clear opening dimensions of replacement doors and windows that result from the use of different materials shall be allowed, whether or not they are permitted by this code.

In New York, our Residential Code has similar language:

• J502.3 Replacement door and window dimensions.
  Minor reductions in the clear opening dimensions of replacement doors and windows that result from the use of different materials shall be allowed.
• J502.3.1 Replacement windows.
  The replacement of emergency escape and rescue opening windows in conformance with the code in effect at the time of construction shall not require compliance with Section R310.

[Daniel Rogers]

Most double hung windows have two clips that you push and the window swings in for easy cleaning. Both window sashes come out or stack pretty easily for an adult resident to escape. If a fireman wants in, he'll have an ax or tool to get in. What does a fireman do if a single hung window is closed and locked?

Totally right Richard. Most replacement windows tilt in very easily and a stiff tug on one corner of the sash and it pops right out of the pivot cams. I always show people how to do this.
By the way. I highly doubt a buyer would not buy a house because it has new windows and not the old ones still in place. Just report the safety issue and move on.

[Jerry Peck]

Totally right Richard. Most replacement windows tilt in very easily and a stiff tug on one corner of the sash and it pops right out of the pivot cams. I always show people how to do this.
By the way. I highly doubt a buyer would not buy a house because it has new windows and not the old ones still in place. Just report the safety issue and move on.

Daniel,

Your post and your signature seem to be in conflict with each other.

[Don Hester]

Actually the size requirement really is for ingress, think of the fire person with a tank on.

But still with us ever expanding Americans we can say it the same for egress ; )

I just state what it should be and then let Client know what the issues could be then it is up to them to decide if it is an issues for them or not.

The other issue if it is a below grade window then the window well needs to be

Window wells. (R310.2). The minimum

horizontal area of the window well shall be 9 square
feet, with a minimum horizontal projection and width
of 36 inches. The area of the window well shall
allow the emergency escape and rescue opening to
be fully opened.

[Jerry Peck]

Actually the size requirement really is for ingress, think of the fire person with a tank on.

But still with us ever expanding Americans we can say it the same for egress ; )

Don,

Those windows are not for ingress OR egress.

There is a reason those windows are referred to as: Emergency Escape and Rescue Openings ... there is no intent to use the windows for ingress or egress, only for "escape" and "rescue".

Maybe you could get Watson to include those windows in his maintaining egress height and width bull he is still trying to shove down everyone's throat.

[Darren Miller]

I would not put (code says), I would put typical standards are such and such, have an applicable contractor evaluate and advise on corrections needed.

MOST Property inspectors are not code compliant inspectors, by saying this it would be presumed your know all the codes and could get you introuble in the future.

I know, I know:
Do you know how many times I've gotten in trouble for inserting a code reference section in my reports in the 16 years I've been a home inspector?








Ahhh, that would be a big fat "0"

I'm always a step ahead of the 'Code police'

[Don Hester]

Jerry, That was maybe a poor choice of word without a qualifier "Emergency". It is still a point of ingress, "the act of entering".

They are meant for emergency entering and exiting (ingress and egress).

[EmmanuelScanlan]

How do you guys handle this. I inspected a home that has nice double hung replacement windows. The windows are made to fit the original window space but the sill of the new window sits about two inches above the original sill. The height of the sash is 18-1/2" just under the required 20" egress requirement for bedrooms.

Is it up to my client, e.g. if he feels he and his family can slip through the window it is OK? Or should it be a deal breaker because it might effect resale value?

Aren't you a degreed Engineer with home remodeling and renovation experience since the age of six years old, the "Go To Guy" for friends and family for inspections? What does your advanced degree, training and experience tell you to report?

[Lon Henderson]

I know, I know:
Do you know how many times I've gotten in trouble for inserting a code reference section in my reports in the 16 years I've been a home inspector?
Ahhh, that would be a big fat "0"

I'm always a step ahead of the 'Code police'

Interesting, in my 15 years, I, too, have never gotten in trouble for mentioning code infractions or for that matter, not mentioning every dinky code infraction.

In my contract disclosures, I state that even if references to code infractions are mentioned, I don't try to identify every single code infraction because it is so difficult to keep up with the changes in code for every community and municipality.

Heck, around here, there can be surprising differences in code requirements for houses separated by nothing more than a street and a line on a map.

[Don Hester]

Lon, Those lines are hard to see sometimes ; )

[Garry Sorrells]

Is it up to my client, e.g. if he feels he and his family can slip through the window it is OK? Or should it be a deal breaker because it might effect resale value?

I am trying to decide whether to recommend that they insist on new windows (which won't happen) or make sure they can fit through the ones they have. They are looking for guidance. I guess what I am asking is if your client asked you your recommendation what would you say.

Tom,
Your state SOP & Lic may specifically prevent you from offering such opinions.
Also, unless you have the professional experience and background to make a determination as to value and marketability you may be heading for problems in areas outside the actual physical inspection and observation descriptions.

And, Unless you have the knowledge and experience do not quote costs for any alterations to the property.

People may say "what do you think about the property" and you response could be "this is what I can factually tell you about the property and it is you who must determine how it will affect you".

Remember you are there to be objective. Facts and only the facts, Mam,

[Lon Henderson]

People may say "what do you think about the property" and you response could be "this is what I can factually tell you about the property and it is you who must determine how it will affect you".

That's a good reply. I often tell people that I don't grade or score houses. I, sometimes, explain that people have different pain thresholds and only they can know what their threshold is.

[Don Hester]

I often reply that there is no perfect home, I can only provide you with information and you have to decide what you can live with.

[Jerry Peck]

That's a good reply. I often tell people that I don't grade or score houses. I, sometimes, explain that people have different pain thresholds and only they can know what their threshold is.

I often reply that there is no perfect home, I can only provide you with information and you have to decide what you can live with.

I would sometimes reply that, like the medical examiner, I did not kill the subject, I am only investigating the cause of its death ...

No Deal Killer here, it was DOA ... is the cause 'natural', 'suspicious', or ...

[Dan Harris]

Tom,

You cannot insist on anything, and your client cannot insist on anything. Your reports should not address that they insist on anything.

You should write the undersized windows up in your report as an item which needs to be corrected. It is then up to your client to address the windows and: a) take a credit for the non-conforming windows; b) insist that the windows be replaced with conforming windows - are they need to be willing to walk away as they cannot "insist" that anything be done; c) trade the windows for something else; d) accept the windows as they are; e) use the windows to the best advantage they can when negotiating the compensation for items in the report.

Depending on the size of the windows and the construction of the house, installing correctly sized windows may be quite expensive. Make your client aware of that, it is up to your client to do what they feel is best for them and their family.

There are limitations on what the home inspector can do beyond educating their client. And educating their client fully is the most important thing you can do, and that does not mean doing what some real estate friendly home inspectors do - write something in the report then verbally down play it so the client thinks it is a small item.

This is what I wrote on an 1960s sgl wide Mbl Home last week
The one side had a concrete block wall addition with a 2' space between the home and addition and the other side had an addition opposite the hall.
For their sake if there's a fire, I hope they got the message.


*** There is not any way to egress the center and rear bedrooms in the mobile home.
If there is a fire in this home there is almost no way for a fire man to access the home and rescue someone sleeping in these bedrooms, and almost no way to quickly exit the home.
Correction Recommended: Due to the type of this structure I strongly recommend not using these bedrooms until proper egress is provided.
NOTE: Due to the center bedroom being blocked by an addition on both sides, there is not really any practical way to provide proper egress for this bedroom,
A window can be installed on the rear bedroom wall to provide egress for this bedroom.

[Jerry Peck]

Dan,

One thing is certain with mobile homes. - there is very little time to escape a fire under the best of circumstances, i.e., being awake and alert. The chances for escape from a mobile home fire are greatly reduced if one is asleep.

The entire mobile home may be totally engulfed and gone in as little as 3-5 minutes.

On a completely different aspect with mobile homes - does Arizona require the same thing Florida does for additions ... that the addition be constructed as its own independent free stastanding strustructure?

Florida requires any addition to a mobile home, even a deck, to be free standing and only attached to the mobile home with a flasflashing (such as for roofed additions or enclosed with end walls). We refer to this as the addition having 'a 4th wall' because the mobile home is not allowed to be that '4th wall' for the side next to the mobile home.

[Dan Harris]

Dan,

One thing is certain with mobile homes. - there is very little time to escape a fire under the best of circumstances, i.e., being awake and alert. The chances for escape from a mobile home fire are greatly reduced if one is asleep.

The entire mobile home may be totally engulfed and gone in as little as 3-5 minutes.

On a completely different aspect with mobile homes - does Arizona require the same thing Florida does for additions ... that the addition be constructed as its own independent free stastanding strustructure?

Florida requires any addition to a mobile home, even a deck, to be free standing and only attached to the mobile home with a flasflashing (such as for roofed additions or enclosed with end walls). We refer to this as the addition having 'a 4th wall' because the mobile home is not allowed to be that '4th wall' for the side next to the mobile home.

This is a personal thing with me. Apx 40 years ago a co-worker in a Mbl Home park in upstate NY died in a Mbl Home fire. Like you stated the home was gone in 3-5 min. The fire was so hot nobody could get close enough to help him, the guy never had a chance.

AZ requirements, they are the same. I'm guessing 50% are done properly, most of the deck's and additions are done by retired handimen/contractors that live in the parks. They aren't enforced in MH rental parks and most rural areas.

[Stuart Brooks]

In some states, including Virginia, they allow you to count the upper window section of a double hung window toward the egress requirements, as long as you don't need a tool to remove this window section. Virginia has ammended the IRC.

If you are not a building code certified in your state, I would make note of what you saw, without an opion.

Richard, Yes, the Virginia SUBC specifically allows it (idiots). They skip the rule that says, "Does not require special knowledge to operate." To me and most people, knowing how to remove 2 window sashes in a panic situation is special knowledge. Heck most people don't even know you can remove the sashes from the jamb much less know how. Another case of the builders modifying the IRC to suit there greedy little pockets. Maybe this should be brought up during the ongoing 2012 review session.

I had a discussion over this with a builder at one pre-drywall inspection. I gave him an example of a kid or 80 year old granny waking up in the room with smoke alarms screaming and the house full of smoke along with the whole process of removing the sashes to get out. He said, "Yeah, I guess looking at it that way it makes sense."

[Don Hester]

FYI- Washington state looks to have he same requirements for MFGer homes as Florida.

You can modify the existing unit but it has to be completely engineered and signed off on.

I have only seen this done a couple of times.