For Clarification

**JIM MURPHY** · 03-31-2016, 12:07 PM

Hello!

2005 Single story house with a front right side attached garage. The garage ceiling, the adjacent wall to the living space, left side interior wall, one half of the right side wall are all sheet rocked. The other half of the right side wall is pegboard and the two front sides between the garage door are open.

Shouldn't everything be sheetrocked?

I have read the 2003 IRC but still want clarification

Jim

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**Jerry Peck** · 03-31-2016, 01:17 PM

There are two minimum options to provide separation between the garage and the living space and its attic:
- drywall the wall between the garage and the living space all the way up to the underside of the roof deck (this separates the garage from the living space and its attic)
- drywall the wall between the garage and the living space up to the garage ceiling, drywall the garage ceiling (this also separates the garage from the living space and it attic)

The second option leaves the garage attic and living space attic communicating with each other, but that is okay, it is just the garage which is required to be separated from the living space and the living space's attic.

**JIM MURPHY** · 03-31-2016, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

There are two minimum options to provide separation between the garage and the living space and its attic:
- drywall the wall between the garage and the living space all the way up to the underside of the roof deck (this separates the garage from the living space and its attic)
- drywall the wall between the garage and the living space up to the garage ceiling, drywall the garage ceiling (this also separates the garage from the living space and it attic)

The second option leaves the garage attic and living space attic communicating with each other, but that is okay, it is just the garage which is required to be separated from the living space and the living space's attic.

Thanks Jerry as always. That is what I thought but when you go into a house/garage of a national builder, you see they rocked some walls and not others you scratch your head and ass.

Jim

**Jerry Peck** · 03-31-2016, 03:16 PM

Jim,

This is their reasoning: not rocking the unneeded walls in the garage saves them, what, maybe $100 for that house?

We look at it as WTH? For 100 bucks ... why don't they just rock the rest of the garage.

They look at is as ... we are planning on building 10,000 houses this next year across the country ... 10,000 x $100 = $1,000,000 in our pockets if we only rock the parts of the garage which are required ... that will help pay for our corporate New Years Eve Party.

**JIM MURPHY** · 04-01-2016, 04:05 AM

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Jim,

This is their reasoning: not rocking the unneeded walls in the garage saves them, what, maybe $100 for that house?

We look at it as WTH? For 100 bucks ... why don't they just rock the rest of the garage.

They look at is as ... we are planning on building 10,000 houses this next year across the country ... 10,000 x $100 = $1,000,000 in our pockets if we only rock the parts of the garage which are required ... that will help pay for our corporate New Years Eve Party.

Good thought! You are absolutely right!

**Thom Huggett** · 04-07-2016, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

There are two minimum options to provide separation between the garage and the living space and its attic:
- drywall the wall between the garage and the living space all the way up to the underside of the roof deck (this separates the garage from the living space and its attic)
- drywall the wall between the garage and the living space up to the garage ceiling, drywall the garage ceiling (this also separates the garage from the living space and it attic)

The second option leaves the garage attic and living space attic communicating with each other, but that is okay, it is just the garage which is required to be separated from the living space and the living space's attic.

When the ceiling is drywalled as part of the fire separation, my jurisdiction requires all the walls supporting the ceiling to also be drywalled, which usually includes all the walls in the garage. The logic of this is that a protected ceiling is no good if the supporting walls burn away and the ceiling collapses.

**Ian Page** · 04-07-2016, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

There are two minimum options to provide separation between the garage and the living space and its attic:
- drywall the wall between the garage and the living space all the way up to the underside of the roof deck (this separates the garage from the living space and its attic)
- drywall the wall between the garage and the living space up to the garage ceiling, drywall the garage ceiling (this also separates the garage from the living space and it attic)

The second option leaves the garage attic and living space attic communicating with each other, but that is okay, it is just the garage which is required to be separated from the living space and the living space's attic.

Jerry
In your opinion, if the space behind the garage wall (originally another garage) was converted, with permit to another space, and now used for but not approved for living space/ habitability, would the above still apply?

**Jerry Peck** · 04-07-2016, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Ian Page

Jerry
In your opinion, if the space behind the garage wall (originally another garage) was converted, with permit to another space, and now used for but not approved for living space/ habitability, would the above still apply?

Ian,

Yes, as long as that area was treated as it is being used - living space.

That means the garage and that living space, and the garage and that living space's attic, must be separated (by the various methods available - note: the various methods available may now be reduced to one method based on the alteration of that space to living space and the construction between it and the garage).

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Thom Huggett

When the ceiling is drywalled as part of the fire separation, my jurisdiction requires all the walls supporting the ceiling to also be drywalled, which usually includes all the walls in the garage. The logic of this is that a protected ceiling is no good if the supporting walls burn away and the ceiling collapses.

Captain Kirk,

That's illogical.

Spock

Thom,

That presumes the intent is to keep the structure standing - the intent is only to give the occupants the time to escape. If the intent was to keep the structure standing, then 2-hour fire-resistance rated fire-walls would be required to separate the garage from the house.

**Thom Huggett** · 04-07-2016, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Ian,

Yes, as long as that area was treated as it is being used - living space.

That means the garage and that living space, and the garage and that living space's attic, must be separated (by the various methods available - note: the various methods available may now be reduced to one method based on the alteration of that space to living space and the construction between it and the garage).

- - - Updated - - -

Captain Kirk,

That's illogical.

Spock

Thom,

That presumes the intent is to keep the structure standing - the intent is only to give the occupants the time to escape. If the intent was to keep the structure standing, then 2-hour fire-resistance rated fire-walls would be required to separate the garage from the house.

Jerry,

Sorry, you presume incorrectly. Check IRC Table R02.6, row 3. Although in this case there is no living space above the garage, the fire separation is the ceiling and if the walls supporting the ceiling are weakened due to fire exposure the horizontal separation would collapse and compromise the fire separation. This is reflected also in the IBC Section 711 which covers horizontal fire-rated assemblies. The last sentence of Section 711.4 states, "The supporting construction shall be protected to afford the required fire-resistance rating of the horizontal assembly supported." When the garage ceiling is a fire-rated horizontal assembly our jurisdiction requires that the supporting walls also be protected whether or not there is living space above.

It seems, Jerry that you don't appreciate my presence in this forum. There is always at least a hint of sarcasm in any of your replies to my comments. It seems that you want to be the one and only "code expert" in this forum and you resent the fact that there might be someone else with some code knowledge. I have been a code official and plan check engineer for 36 years, as well as being an ICC certified Building Plans Examiner and Building Official, California registered civil and structural engineer, and I have learned a few things along the way. I have also learned a few things from you home inspectors and enjoy seeing some of the photos of the outrageous things that people do. I also hope that others might learn a little bit from my years of experience and study. I don't mind when you disagree with me, but ask that you do so in respectful manner.

**Jerry Peck** · 04-07-2016, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by Thom Huggett

JSorry, you presume incorrectly. Check IRC Table R02.6, row 3. Although in this case there is no living space above the garage, ...

Precisely ... "in this case there is no living space above the garage" ... which means that the wall are not required to be anything.

For those wondering, the table is Table 302.6.

Row 3 says: "Structure(s) supporting floor/ceiling assemblies used for separation required by this section"

I really do appreciate it when you post the code section and refer directly to the language which backs what I said and not what you are saying.

The garage walls which *do not* support a living space above *do not* require protection by any means.

The requirement for such protection is only for when there is living space above supported by those walls.

I don't mind when you disagree with me, but ask that you do so in respectful manner.

I am disagreeing with you in a respectful manner, and I thank you for pointing out what I was referring to - that a ceiling which is not separating living space above does not require protection on the walls, that the only walls which require minimum 1/2 inch gypsum board for separation are those which separate the garage "From the residence and attics" (row 1).

The reason is that there are various types of assemblies, two of which are (from the IBC 711 you referenced): "floor/ceiling or roof/ceiling assemblies".

The IRC, Table 302.6, row 3, specifically states "floor/ceiling assemblies", it does not include "roof/ceiling assemblies".

Walls supporting "roof/ceiling assemblies" do not require that same protection.

**Thom Huggett** · 04-08-2016, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Precisely ... "in this case there is no living space above the garage" ... which means that the wall are not required to be anything.

For those wondering, the table is Table 302.6.

Row 3 says: "Structure(s) supporting floor/ceiling assemblies used for separation required by this section"

I really do appreciate it when you post the code section and refer directly to the language which backs what I said and not what you are saying.

The garage walls which *do not* support a living space above *do not* require protection by any means.

The requirement for such protection is only for when there is living space above supported by those walls.

I am disagreeing with you in a respectful manner, and I thank you for pointing out what I was referring to - that a ceiling which is not separating living space above does not require protection on the walls, that the only walls which require minimum 1/2 inch gypsum board for separation are those which separate the garage "From the residence and attics" (row 1).

The reason is that there are various types of assemblies, two of which are (from the IBC 711 you referenced): "floor/ceiling or roof/ceiling assemblies".

The IRC, Table 302.6, row 3, specifically states "floor/ceiling assemblies", it does not include "roof/ceiling assemblies".

Walls supporting "roof/ceiling assemblies" do not require that same protection.

Yes sir, I do know the difference between a floor/ceiling and a roof/ceiling assembly, and the last sentence of IBC Section 711.4 applies to both. My point was that our department applies 711.4 to both roof/ceiling and floor/ceiling assemblies in single family homes.

Spock out!

**Jerry Peck** · 04-08-2016, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by Thom Huggett

Yes sir, I do know the difference between a floor/ceiling and a roof/ceiling assembly, and the last sentence of IBC Section 711.4 applies to both. My point was that our department applies 711.4 to both roof/ceiling and floor/ceiling assemblies in single family homes.

Spock out!

Thom,

I know you know the difference - my point is that you keep referring to the IBC when we are discussing an IRC code applicable building ... thus the IBC does not apply to the question.