OSB Visible

[Michael Scher]

Greetings,
I read this message board frequently, but as the stats show I rarely post. I'm making a break from that trend today. I figure, as long as I have questions, I'll ask. From what I've seen, the worst that could happen is I get beat up for being an idiot.

I am performing a builder's warranty inspection on this home. I will call out more issues on an inspection of this nature since the builder is on the hook for making repairs.

With that in mind, would you call this condition out as 'in need of repair'.
If yes, then, beyond the scope of inspecting, what is the recommended repair?

Thank you for your input.

Michael
Scher Professional Inspections

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[Darrel Hood]

Rake edge flashing is missing. In need of repair. Good eye.

[wayne soper]

Yes, I run into similar situations all the time on 1 yr inspects. You should not be able to see unfinished wood anywhere on the home from the outside.
Aluminum drip edge should have been installed there.
Unless thats doubling as the soffitt vent alsoHAHA

[Jerry Peck]

Aluminum drip edge

Huh?

You mean "drip edge", right?

There are reasons that the drip edge should be / could be:

- aluminum

- galvanized

- copper

Was drip edge installed along the overhang at the eaves?

[Ted Menelly]

Resident idiot here.

No drip edge, shoddy workmanship, in need of repair. The butcher had a day off from his butcher shop and came to help out that day.

Ted

[Darrel Hood]

I think my terminology was correct when I wrote rake edge. Let's see if I learn something. In my understanding the exposes edges of this dormer gable are the rake edges which are missing flashing.

The drip edge of a gable is the horizontal bottom edge of the roof line. The term drip edge also applies the flashing products most commonly used to provide protection for either edge of the gable.

Whatever the proper jargon is (and I recognize the importance) the dormer in the picture is missing the metal stuff that's supposed to keep water on the outside.

Darrel

[wayne soper]

Right , Drip edge. How could I be so suggestive, even after viewing the home. OOPS

[Jerry Peck]

I think my terminology was correct when I wrote rake edge. Let's see if I learn something. In my understanding the exposes edges of this dormer gable are the rake edges which are missing flashing.

Correct. That and all gable rakes (the sloped edge) are called "rakes".

The drip edge of a gable is the horizontal bottom edge of the roof line. The term drip edge also applies the flashing products most commonly used to provide protection for either edge of the gable.

Correct. That same product is applied (as you stated) to the rakes on the gables, i.e., "drip edge" on the rakes.

Whatever the proper jargon is (and I recognize the importance) the dormer in the picture is missing the metal stuff that's supposed to keep water on the outside.

True, the proper jargon is important, and using less is better.

You could call this stuff "drip edge of a gable is the horizontal bottom edge of the roof line" "eave drip" and be correct. However, if you called the rake drip edge "eave drip", you would be incorrect.

Calling both just plain old "drip edge" is correct for both.

You could even use "drip edge" when referring to a flat roof, even though it is normally called "gravel stop". Of source, though, "gravel stop" comes with the edge lip available in several different heights, with the intent to hold the water "and gravel" back from falling over the edge, hence it is called "gravel stop". But, if you have a single ply roof with no gravel ballast, then the raised edge of the gravel stop is either almost flat or flat not making much of a stop for gravel, (i.e., just plain old "drip edge").

[Ted Menelly]

You forgot the butcher had a day off from the shop and came to help out.

[Vern Heiler]

Building code requires a metal drip edge, but does "Residential"?

Found this in the Building Code.

1507.2.9.3 Drip edge.

Provide drip edge at eaves and gables of shingle roofs. Overlap to be a minimum of 2 inches (51 mm). Eave drip edges shall extend 0.25 inch (6.4 mm) below sheathing and extend back on the roof a minimum of 2 inches (51 mm). Drip edge shall be mechanically fastened a maximum of 12 inches (305 mm) on center. A cricket or saddle shall be installed on the ridge side of any chimney greater than 30 inches wide. Cricket or saddle coverings shall be sheet metal or of the same material as roof covering.

But nothing like it in the Residential Code.

[Michael Scher]

I think there is an outstanding question in the thread;

Jerry Peck wrote:
"Was drip edge installed along the overhang at the eaves?"

No, there was not.

I will call out as 'in need of repair' drip edge missing on the dormer.
As I understand it, drip edge properly installed under the felt and shingles along this edge would conceal the exposed osb.

Thank you all for your input.

Michael
Scher Professional Inspections

[BARRY ADAIR]

I will call out as 'in need of repair' drip edge missing on the dormer.
As I understand it, drip edge properly installed under the felt and shingles along this edge would conceal the exposed osb.

Michael
Scher Professional Inspections

Michael,

In the rake location the correct installation of the drip edge flashing goes "over the underlayment" and under the shingles.
See diagram I finally found.

Eave location drip edge flashing goes under both underlayment and shingle. Less then 5% are done right around here.

Even with drip edge installed it appears they will have to reinstall the valley flashing correctly so there is no bulge adjacent to the right of the valley. This will allow water entrance even with proper drip edge flashing installation. Or they could just CAULK IT, more likely.

Windstorm areas require eave edge sealed so inspecting the drip/underlayment installation is impossible except where it hasn't been sealed correctly. Better than 50% of the jobs I've seen around the coastal areas of Texas are not done correctly.

[Rick Hurst]

Barry,

I see this all the time.

rick

[Vern Heiler]

I will call out as 'in need of repair' drip edge missing on the dormer.
As I understand it, drip edge properly installed under the felt and shingles along this edge would conceal the exposed osb.

Michael, before you call it out as in need of repair and stating it needs a drip edge, you might want to check local codes to see if it does.

The drip edge can be the overhang of the shingle and a manufactured (metal) drip edge is not required by the residental code.

The problem I would write up is "A gap was observed between the shingles and shingle molding, at the bottom left corner of the dormer gable end. This condition can allow moisture and insect intrusion. Recommend adjustment of the shingle molding." JMHO

I just looked at the pic again and see the real problem was the cut of the sheathing causes it to bow up. The best fix for new construction would be to re-cut that underlayment to fit. Also I would not want the rake board in contact with the roofing material. Same as siding.

[BARRY ADAIR]

Barry,

I see this all the time.

rick

Rick,
Yeppers!
Now I know who's been tearing up the starter course before my arrival!

[Rick Hurst]

Its going to get torn off to do the repairs anyway, right.

rick

[BARRY ADAIR]

Its going to get torn off to do the repairs anyway, right.

rick

Naw, take the money and run, screw the H2O intrusion until rot is present or it appears on the ceiling and then we're back to my CAULK IT theory.
Nobody's gonna notice until the next inspection anyway, right?

Caulk is a marvelous product that has saved m/billions of dollars in repairs, right up there with duct tape. imo

[Jerry Peck]

Michael, before you call it out as in need of repair and stating it needs a drip edge, you might want to check local codes to see if it does.

The drip edge can be the overhang of the shingle and a manufactured (metal) drip edge is not required by the residental code.

Write it up as in needing correction, and include a statement that 'whether or not required by local codes, manufacturers recommend drip edge be installed'.

HIs are not "code enforcement" and cannot make anyone do anything, likewise, while "code enforcement" is limited to the minimum "requirement", HIs are not. HIs should go with known "recommendations" over lesser "requirements".

It is for the protection and best interests of your client.

That is why you were hired.

To tell them what was not right.

*NOT* to tell them that 'not right' is 'okay' because that was all that was 'required'.

[Randy Yates]

Be careful guys on calling this as in need of repair. As long as the roofer extended the shingles 1 inch beyond the edge of the sheathing there is no need for drip edge flashing. I know, I know they should have installed it, but a lot of shingle manufacturers will allow this as long as the shingles were esxtended.

[Jerry Peck]

Be careful guys on calling this as in need of repair. As long as the roofer extended the shingles 1 inch beyond the edge of the sheathing there is no need for drip edge flashing.

Randy,

There is a "need" for the drip edge regardless.

It may not be "required", but that does not, should not, stop a HI from writing up missing drip edge.

a lot of shingle manufacturers will allow this as long as the shingles were esxtended.

But, to my knowledge, they all "recommend" installing drip edge.

HIs are not limited by minimum requirements, *especially when the manufacturer recommends something greater*!

[Brandon Whitmore]

Barry,

I see this all the time.

Rick,

That looks like a typical install around here too.... with the improper starter course installation (starter/ first courses not staggered enough, unsealed first course of shingles), and of course the felt paper not extending down far enough. That's a good picture to use to show how not to do it.

[Mike Schulz]

Around here you seldom see drip edge. It would be nice if they did and one big builder "centex" now requires it. I would have to call no drip edge in about every report. I tore of many roofs with no drip edge and found no problems. If you have the proper overhang and the shingles are nailed tight along the rakes and flush to the trim I don't think you will have a problem. We don't get snow much. Only time I find problems is when the gutters overflow and rot the fascia. Your area may differ.

[brian schmitt]

drip edge required at eaves and gables per section 1507.2.9.3 2006 i.b.c.

[Jerry Peck]

Around here you seldom see drip edge.

I would have to call no drip edge in about every report.

Mike,

Then put it in "about every report". I, and many other inspectors, found that builder eventually get the idea to do things when they keep getting hammered about those things by many, most, or all home inspectors. Builders tire of telling their buyers (especially in times like these) "But ... the manufacturer does not require it, they only recommend it." and then having to answer the buyers follow-up question "And what would it cost, another 100 bucks to have done my house with that when the roof was installed, *that* is how much we mean to you?" Especially when those buyers can now say "You know, *I am going to buy a Centex house, because *they* know the value of drip edge."

drip edge required at eaves and gables per section 1507.2.9.3 2006 i.b.c.

Brain,

The IBC does not apply to one- and two-family dwellings nor to townhouses, the IRC does. The IRC 'does not prohibit' using means and methods in the IBC, it just does not 'require' them.

[brian schmitt]

jerri,
the name is brian and the code reference does apply to residential here because we use the ibc with calif amendments and no irc.sorry i didn't make that clear for you! the chapter 15 applies to roofing application which if you install comp on a non-res structure would it be installed any different on a residence?maybe in your little world

[Jerry Peck]

jerri,
the name is brian

Oops, sorry Brian, at least I had the correct letters, just had two of them reversed (dyslexic?).

My apologies, usually I catch those things.

and the code reference does apply to residential here because we use the ibc with calif amendments and no irc.sorry i didn't make that clear for you!

Okie dokie. I thought CA also adopted and amended the IRC? Guess not.

the chapter 15 applies to roofing application which if you install comp on a non-res structure would it be installed any different on a residence?maybe in your little world

Why would it be any different?

A question I frequently ask about the many things which are different between the IRC and IBC - if it is required in one, why is it not required in the other? Being as I was not on any of the code committees, I do not have the answer to that.

To me, and presumably to you, it only makes sense to make similar parts of the IRC match the IBC, after all, the only reason for the IRC (theoretically anyway) was to comb the 'residential applicable' parts from the IBC, IPC, etc., and combine them into one volume to make it easier for builders and inspectors, not to 'change things' from the IBC to the IRC. Although, the builders associations probably ( ya think!) had a hand in changing things for the IRC.

[Steve Frederickson]

I think that many of the differences lie in heredity. The IRC has evolved from the old CABO 1 and 2 family code. The IBC has evolved from the merge of the BOCA National Building Code, the SBCCI Southern Building Code and the ICBO Uniform Building Code. It's not really the case that the IRC was pared down from the IBC, and they should therefore be the same for similar conditions (although it would be nice; maybe someday).

[Richard Mobley]

I agree that a modern metal preformed flashing with a capillary break “drip edge” is by far the best way to go.

I may be splitting hairs here.

But, in the old days … wasn’t the 1x2 next to the shingles on the facia called a drip edge?

[Jerry Peck]

But, in the old days … wasn’t the 1x2 next to the shingles on the facia called a drip edge?

I always knew it as 'shingle molding' and it was for wood shake roofs.

[Mike Gault]

I agree that a modern metal preformed flashing with a capillary break “drip edge” is by far the best way to go.

I may be splitting hairs here.

But, in the old days … wasn’t the 1x2 next to the shingles on the facia called a drip edge?

They'll call it drip edge here too... though it's not, it does 'hold off' the proper shingle overhang to protect the eaves.

Drip edge 'flashing' is a pretty rare thing here in SC production builder homes...