Doesn't drain correctly

Blain Plantz · 06-09-2009, 07:12 AM

Recently in my little corner of paradise homes are being equipped with these Glass Vessel Sinks. Yesterday I found 3 that would not drain properly. They fill up like bowls and drain like the vent pipe was plugged. No pop up stopper is installed. If I turn off the hot water and run cold they all begin to drain normally. The other sinks, showers and tubs in the home drain normally. The installer told me the problem was the lack of an overflow drain as seen in a conventional sinks or tubs. Out of the past 20 or so of these things I have seen this is the first house that demonstrates this problem, so maybe the explanation is more self serving than accurate.

thank in advance for your input

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**John Arnold** · 06-09-2009, 07:19 AM

If it's properly vented, I don't see what difference an overflow would make.

Ted Menelly · 06-09-2009, 08:04 AM

A lot of the new in counter sinks have no overflow drain in them. I do not see the problem. As far as the hot or cold water I don't see thaty problem either. It could be the size and type of drain under the sink or length of drain line from the sink to vent.

**Jerry Peck** · 06-09-2009, 08:22 AM

Probably have those bottle trap drains which are undersized.

No overflow is required in a sink, however, if one is installed I can see how it could mask some draining and venting problems.

Blain Plantz · 06-09-2009, 01:36 PM

Thanks for the input I think you are right about the bottle traps I was thinking that when I was on site but hadn't had much experience with them.

Thanks again

**Scott Patterson** · 06-09-2009, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by Blain Plantz

Recently in my little corner of paradise homes are being equipped with these Glass Vessel Sinks. Yesterday I found 3 that would not drain properly. They fill up like bowls and drain like the vent pipe was plugged. No pop up stopper is installed. If I turn off the hot water and run cold they all begin to drain normally. The other sinks, showers and tubs in the home drain normally. The installer told me the problem was the lack of an overflow drain as seen in a conventional sinks or tubs. Out of the past 20 or so of these things I have seen this is the first house that demonstrates this problem, so maybe the explanation is more self serving than accurate.

thank in advance for your input

I have come across the same problem with the same type of sink. It was a venting problem on the sink that I was dealing with. They ended up installing an AAV and it worked fine.

**Ron Hasil** · 06-09-2009, 06:51 PM

Them bottle traps do not meet most pluming codes. The ones I seen for sale at the big box stores are not even listed with any agency like NSF which would make them illegal in any plumbing code. Also a lot of the drains they use "push button" and or the "grid" strainer have a smaller drain openings than a standard pop up assembly.

**Ron Hasil** · 06-09-2009, 06:58 PM

The issue plumbing codes have with bottle traps is they rely on an internal partition to provide the trap seal. Here is the part in the Illinois Plumbing Code (bold added by me)

k) Prohibited Traps. Use of the following traps is prohibited (see Appendix D: Illustration E):

1) Traps which depend upon the action of movable parts for their seal.

2) Full "S" traps. Exception: Water closet and similar fixtures which depend on self-siphonage for their proper operation.

3) Bell traps.

4) Crown vented traps.

5) Unvented running traps.

6) Fixtures with concealed interior partitioned traps. Exception: Fixtures with integral traps constructed of vitrified earthenware and penal institutional fixtures with integral traps constructed of ferrous material.

**Jerry Peck** · 06-09-2009, 07:22 PM

From the 2006 IRC. (underlining and bold are mine)
- P3201.1 Design of traps. Traps shall be of standard design, shall have smooth uniform internal waterways, shall be self-cleaning and shall not have interior partitions except where integral with the fixture. Traps shall be constructed of lead, cast iron, cast or drawn brass or approved plastic. Tubular brass traps shall be not less than No. 20 gage (0.8 mm) thickness. Solid connections, slip joints and couplings are permitted to be used on the trap inlet, trap outlet, or within the trap seal. Slip joints shall be accessible.

The above states that separate traps with integral partitions are not allowed, however ...

- P3201.5 Prohibited trap designs. The following types of traps are prohibited:

- - 1. Bell traps.
- - 2. Separate fixture traps with interior partitions, except those lavatory traps made of plastic, stainless steel or other corrosion-resistant material.
- - 3. “S” traps.
- - 4. Drum traps.

- - 5. Trap designs with moving parts.

... the above seems to allow them, however ...

- P3201.7 Size of fixture traps. Fixture trap size shall be sufficient to drain the fixture rapidly and not less than the size indicated in Table P3201.7. A trap shall not be larger than the drainage pipe into which the trap discharges.

- Table P3201.7
- - SIZE OF TRAPS AND TRAP ARMS FOR PLUMBING FIXTURES
- - - Lavatory .... 1-1/4"

... I have not seen a bottle trap I recall being that large diameter.

With the end result being that, as Ron pointed out, most bottle traps are not listed and are not suitable for use here in the states.