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Thread: Supports in an old addition
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08-01-2010, 08:20 PM #1
Supports in an old addition
I was crawling under a house that a buddy is considering buying. The home was built in 1970 and a master bedroom addition was put on about fifteen years ago (he was told). The floor joists are sitting on a beam that is resting on PT 6x6's and joined by nailed by 2x4's.
Photo: http://www.vawaterfront.info/Public/postandbeam.jpg
Clearly this doesn't adhere to current building practices, but os it possible that it was allowed in a rural Virginia county fifteen years ago?
What's the best way to advise him on what to do. There isn't any apparent shifting.
Thanks,
Mitch
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08-01-2010, 09:28 PM #2
Re: Supports in an old addition
What is your concern?
That's the way it's done here. Shoot, 15 years ago it wasn't required to use the 2x4 to "join" them together.
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08-01-2010, 10:04 PM #3
Re: Supports in an old addition
Agree with Brandon.... and fwiw - that's not a PT post - I'm hoping at some point your friend is looking into a professional home inspection.
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08-02-2010, 03:53 AM #4
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08-02-2010, 05:38 AM #5
Re: Supports in an old addition
So nobody sees a structural concern here and there's no need for him to expect to have to put in concrete block piers at a later date?
Thanks.
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08-02-2010, 07:22 AM #6
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08-02-2010, 08:33 AM #7
Re: Supports in an old addition
The 2x4's were used to resist lateral and rotational movement of the beam. If you look at the picture the 6x6 post looks very much like SYP, which is often used for PT applications. Without a grade stamp or tag it's difficult to know whether it's suitable or not (but really, most lumber yards around here don't have non-PT 6x6 posts - and they're almost always rated for ground contact).
Based on the 1/2" shim in the picture I expect they used a similar shim on the other side and the beam is built up from three 2x members. The relevant metal fastener for this application would be the Simpson Strong-Tie BCS2-3/6 post cap but it would not resist rotation as well as the 2x4's. I've used a combination of the two when not using LVL beams (for which I've used the PC66 to make the beam/post connections).
Also, I've enhanced the picture somewhat to show the background a bit. Not sure what the clearance from grade is for those studs and sill plate.
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08-02-2010, 08:45 AM #8
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08-02-2010, 08:58 AM #9
Re: Supports in an old addition
Mitch,
The reason I asked what your concern was, is that I don't see what the problem could be. When I run into something I either haven't see before, or looks unusual, I think to myself "self, what bad things can happen, if any". Why would concrete piers be better than a post in this instance? There's a concrete pad supporting the base of the post isn't there?
In response to Matt stating that it doesn't look like PT......
In this area, PT wood has the typical marks (can't think of what they're called) on the wood, whereas it sounds like this is not the case in other areas. About the only treated wood that doesn't have the marks is outdoor wood, not rated for direct ground contact.
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08-02-2010, 09:39 AM #10
Re: Supports in an old addition
Are you referring to the scoring marks on some pressure treated wood? Out here PT hemlock usually will have them whereas PT SYP usually will not.
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08-02-2010, 09:57 AM #11
Re: Supports in an old addition
Brandon,
No, there's not a concrete pad underneath. There is soil contact, but I don't know if there was a footer used.
I guess my concern is (eventually) termites.
It's solid otherwise. Just thought I'd throw it out there to see if there's a consensus.
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08-02-2010, 10:21 AM #12
Re: Supports in an old addition
Funny thing is, as Corn Walker's "cleaned up resolution" re-post of your own photo shows two other supports in background sitting on some sort of masonry support/block/footing.
You provide no real information, fact sets seem to be difficult to EXTRACT and are suspect changing, too much DIY.
Hire a professional inspector, hire additional professional consultants as deemed necessary, review the addition plans at the building office, etc. A "rat slab" woudn't support compression from a 6x6 beam supporting post.
Review building codes and construction techniques. Since this is not a DIY site, and you provide insufficient data on everything including location soil type, topography (ledge, slope), provide no wide shots or structural specifics, perimeter, orignal foundation, what its supporting, etc., and bring up new questions again with no details, find the entire exercise pointless.
Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 08-02-2010 at 10:33 AM.
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08-02-2010, 12:40 PM #13
Re: Supports in an old addition
Are you referring to the scoring marks on some pressure treated wood? Out here PT hemlock usually will have them whereas PT SYP usually will not.
Yes, score marks-- thanks.
There's no SYP around here.............
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08-02-2010, 12:45 PM #14
Re: Supports in an old addition
No, there's not a concrete pad underneath. There is soil contact, but I don't know if there was a footer used.
I guess my concern is (eventually) termites.
Soil contact doesn't matter if the post is rated for burial/ direct ground contact.
Will the buried PT post rot over time? Possibly, but that doesn't mean it isn't allowed.
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08-02-2010, 03:55 PM #15
Re: Supports in an old addition
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08-02-2010, 04:21 PM #16
Re: Supports in an old addition
David,
Unless I am missing something, that diagram is wrong. Protection against decay clearance requirements are 12" for beams, and 18" for floor joists per the IRC (R319 in the '06 version). Clearances can be reduced if naturally durable or treated materials are used.
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08-02-2010, 04:21 PM #17
Re: Supports in an old addition
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08-02-2010, 04:25 PM #18
Re: Supports in an old addition
Here is what the NC code says about wood post. May not apply to your state.
SECTION R407
COLUMNSR407.1 Wood column protection.Wood columns shall be
protected against decay as set forth in Section R319.
R407.2 Steel column protection.All surfaces (inside and outside)
of steel columns shall be given a shop coat of
rust-inhibitive paint, except for corrosion-resistant steel and
steel treated with coatings to provide corrosion resistance.
R407.3 Structural requirements.The columns shall be
restrained to prevent lateral displacement at the top and bottom
ends. Wood columns shall not be less in nominal size than 4
inches by 4 inches (102 mm by 102 mm) and steel columns
shall not be less than 3-inch-diameter (76 mm) standard pipe or
approved equivalent.
Exception:In Seismic Design Categories A, Band C columns
no more than 48 inches (1219 mm) in height on a pier
or footing are exempt from the bottom end lateral displacement
requirement within underfloor areas enclosed by a
continuous foundation.
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08-02-2010, 05:35 PM #19
Re: Supports in an old addition
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08-02-2010, 06:23 PM #20
Re: Supports in an old addition
Thank you everyone. I get the gist of it and will pass on the link to the discussion.
While I understand this is not a DIY site, and I didn't ask about constructing anything, merely wanted to know everyone's opinions on what I saw, I'm always struck by those members who are happy to try to help and those that prefer instead to gripe about the question. If H.G. Watson wasn't interested by the question or was somehow insulted by it, why take the time to try to dress down someone who is a stranger. Wouldn't it just be easier to ignore it and go on your merry way H.G.? H.G.: I'm sorry I didn't include more detailed photos, or soil type, or location, or, well whatever it is that made it impossible you you to be constructive in your response. I will certainly do my level best to craft better questions so long as you promise to get off your high horse once in awhile.
As for everyone else: thank you very much indeed, I really appreciate you taking the time to help.
Regards,
Mitch
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08-02-2010, 08:45 PM #21
Re: Supports in an old addition
Yes, Brandon you are right. i was just trying to show a picture of the footing,pier and post up to the 4x6 girder. This was probably not the best illustration
I figured as much, but you never know who will look at it and walk away thinking it's correct.
Anyone know if there are or were building codes out there with those clearance requirements? If not, I'd hesitate to use any of that artists illustrations for training purposes, etc.
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08-03-2010, 01:21 PM #22
Re: Supports in an old addition
mitch,
there should have been blocking between the floor joist over the girder! fyi
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