Splitting the pump load on a rental

Michael Merriman · 11-09-2010, 08:19 PM

I added a 40 amp 230/115 vac meter panel to split the load to the well pump from the rest of a rental house on it's 100 amp O.H. service. Both panels are now fed with a hot gutter. The conductors to the pump run in conduit from the new service disconnect to an 886RT can mounted below, then under the house and out the back, underground to the pump. Some of the conductors from the existing combination meter panel also run in conduit to the same enclosure, then under the house and on to various household loads. The job has been inspected and connected. Now a question has arisen about the propriety of the conductors from different service disconnects entering the same enclosure. Frankly I was more concerned about the conductors running under the house, but I couldn't find any directly related issues in the code book.
I'm still researching, but I think some of you might know. Thanks for checking this out. Mike.

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Roger Frazee · 11-10-2010, 07:05 AM

I'm understanding you to say you added a meter to determine kwh of the pump on a rental property. I'm not sure how you split the load from the existing utility meter/main unless you made a line side connection. Anyway this is not a DIY forum but speaking code wise if both the pump conductors and the other conductors going to the house have OCPD at their origin they would be branch circuits or feeders and can occupy the same or separate raceways to the same enclosure if you want. That is of course a broad statement not seeing what you have there ...

Got any pictures ??

Michael Merriman · 11-10-2010, 07:33 AM

Roger,

I understand this is not the forum for this question, and I appreciate your help with this. When I realized this I already had everything filled out. I think I uploaded a couple pictures for you to review. The service entrance conductors go into a hot gutter before the meters. Thank You for your help.

Mike.

Roger Frazee · 11-10-2010, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by Michael Merriman

Roger,

I understand this is not the forum for this question, and I appreciate your help with this. When I realized this I already had everything filled out. I think I uploaded a couple pictures for you to review. The service entrance conductors go into a hot gutter before the meters. Thank You for your help.

Mike.

I don't see the pictures.

Did you make a tap in the gutter to the service entrance conductors serving the existing utility meter and then to a service disconnect with OCPD ?

Then a feeder from that disconnect to the 886RT with branch circuit OCPD for the pump?

Then I'm understanding that branch circuits go from the original exiting meter/main in conduit to that same 886rt enclosure then under the house to serve various loads inside the house ?

Michael Merriman · 11-10-2010, 08:58 PM

Hi Roger,

I hope I'm not wasting too much of your time. Here are the pictures. I think they tell the story better than I. The existing service entrance conductors were too short to reach the existing meter panel lugs (I had to move it to the right). I tapped into them in the gutter to feed both meter panels. The panel below the meter panel to the left is a 2 pole sub-panel with a 40 amp breaker, feeding #8-3 w/ grn romex. That cable only feeds a sub-panel near the well. The 886 is not a splice box. I used it for cleanliness, no armorflex to the panels, secure mounting, and snug fit in vent opening. Though it's hard to see in the pictures the frame for the vent mesh was resized.

Thanks for your concern, Mike.

Roger Frazee · 11-10-2010, 09:49 PM

Mike

I'm not sure what question was raised about the code compliance of the two conduits and conductors therein from separate disconnects going to that same 3r enclosure (886rt). You actually have one feeder (left side) and some branch circuits in the right side conduit.

Technically the 886rt is a pull box since there are no splices in it .

Anyway there is nothing wrong code wise in having both the feeder and those branch circuits entering the 886rt box.

You imply though that this has been inspected and passed and is connected as shown in your pictures. I take it the meter was installed before you connected?

I still have a few concerns aside from your original question but unfortunately it is against forum policy to pursue this as I am already beyond the scope of forum rules.

Someone else here may decide to continue with more comments .. if so I'll keep watch and reply if needed.

Michael Merriman · 11-17-2010, 09:22 PM

Hi Roger,

Thank you for spending time on my problem. I drill water wells, work on pumps, and do electrical primarily related to pumps. I also do residential well and pressure system inspections. I have a C-10 license (CA Elect. Contr.). After the job was completed a representative from another company went by to look at some other residential work. They brought up the issue. My main concern was straightening out a mistake I may have made. Now they say, after getting back to their office and checking, that everything is okay.

Regards, Mike.

Roger Frazee · 11-17-2010, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by Michael Merriman

Hi Roger,

Thank you for spending time on my problem. I drill water wells, work on pumps, and do electrical primarily related to pumps. I also do residential well and pressure system inspections. I have a C-10 license (CA Elect. Contr.). After the job was completed a representative from another company went by to look at some other residential work. They brought up the issue. My main concern was straightening out a mistake I may have made. Now they say, after getting back to their office and checking, that everything is okay.

Regards, Mike.

Glad to hear the installation was ok ... everyone deserves some good news once and a while.

What pump controllers do you like ?.. around here we have mostly Franklin.

Michael Merriman · 11-18-2010, 03:25 PM

Hi Roger,

When I think of controllers pump panels come to mind. These are typically for three phase application. A pump panel is a combination starter; disconnect, magnetic contactor, overload, and HOA-PB switches. For this I prefer Square D, WELL GUARD. They are competitively priced, and their Motor Logic overload is unsurpassed in basic motor protection. Submersible three phase motors need a class 10 overload which is standard on most of the stocked WELL GUARD units. If the pump panel is controlling a Franklin Electric submersible motor the overload must be Franklin approved, which these are.

I assume you may be referring to submersible motor control boxes. These are for single phase capacitor start or capacitor start/run motors. On a capacitor start motor, the start winding is energized for a fraction of a second on start up. On a capacitor start/run minimal current is fed back into the start winding through the run capacitor after the winding has been switched out by the relay. These components could be built into the motor, but they put them up on top in a control box for serviceability.

I've had good luck with Franklin motors. I have several that have been in the well for 20 plus years. I use them almost exclusively.

Franklin used to sell motors with very low OEM pricing to almost all pump manufacturers. They shook things up a few years ago by purchasing Jacuzzi and going into the pump business themselves. They increased pricing to the pump manufacturers so their pricing was the same as pump distributors (the wholesalers dealers buy from). The response from Grundfos, ITT (Goulds), & Pentair (Sta-Rite, Berkeley, and others) was to design and manufacture their own motors.

To answer the question I believe you were asking I would use the control box manufactured by the same company that manufactured the motor. As I use Franklin almost exclusively, it would almost always be a Franklin. Sometimes the boxes are interchangeable and sometimes they are not. Several years ago Franklin took the overloads out of the 1 HP and fractional HP boxes and put them in the motors. More recently they did the same with their 1 1/2 HP. You must be careful if replacing a control box, not to install one with no overload on a motor that doesn't have one either. If something goes wrong, e.g.; capacitor-relay failure-low voltage from utility, the motor will likely burn up.

There you go,

Mike.

Roger Frazee · 11-18-2010, 03:51 PM

Got my monies worth with that reply ....

Thanks

Yes I was referring to submersible well pump controllers 3 hp or less. I don't get around the pump panels and 3 phase much . I"ve been in a few that were for irrigation systems and I believe some are common in the oil fields. Probably elsewhere that I can't think at the moment.....

My understanding is some are now VFD with soft start ?? I'm retired so kinda not up on the latest out there.