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  1. #1
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    Default Curious what kind of subfloor this is and what type of hardwoods in the interior?

    I have a home built in 1954.
    1) I'm curious what type of subfloor these planks are shown in the first 3 photos? I thought subfloors were made of individual sheets of plywood type material?

    2) In the second photo, it looks like there is another cross wood flooring, possibly underlayment? It appears to be individual planks too, but much wider than my interior visible hardwoods. Is this underlayment?

    3) In the last photo are my interior hardwoods. I'm curious what type of wood this is, and if it's easy to get matching hardwoods these days?

    https://imgur.com/a/rE2qI





    Thank you!

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Curious what kind of subfloor this is and what type of hardwoods in the interior?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Wie View Post
    I have a home built in 1954.
    1) I'm curious what type of subfloor these planks are shown in the first 3 photos? I thought subfloors were made of individual sheets of plywood type material?
    2) In the second photo, it looks like there is another cross wood flooring, possibly underlayment? It appears to be individual planks too, but much wider than my interior visible hardwoods. Is this underlayment?
    3) In the last photo are my interior hardwoods. I'm curious what type of wood this is, and if it's easy to get matching hardwoods these days? https://imgur.com/a/rE2qI Thank you!
    Matthew,

    What part of California are you in?

    In my area, plywood was used for subfloor from the 1950s up until the 1980s. In some homes the thickness was 3/4", others it was 5/8" and in certain conditions it was 1-1/16". Today, plywood is still used on occasion, but OSB is less expensive and more widely used. Prior to that, solid wood sheathing was the primary subfloor material. The wood sheathing was typically 1x6 (3/4"x5-1/2") and was laid diagonally.

    What I see from your pics indicates to me that you have 4x6 girders on 4' centers with 2x8 T&G solid wood sheathing. Pretty common in my area during the 1950s and into the 1960s.

    I don't understand the second pic. Is that looking straight up at the bottom of the subfloor? Is that a gap between individual boards?

    Finished hardwood looks to me like red oak.

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Curious what kind of subfloor this is and what type of hardwoods in the interior?

    Looks like square edge sub-floor, at least in the second photos which shows what looks like a the nice square edge of one of the sub-flooring boards.

    Also, the sub-floor is run 90 degrees to the joists/beams, I've always seen it run at a 45 degree angle, that allows the finish flooring to go on in either direction and add stability to the structure - different methods in different parts of the country.

    I see what look like cut flooring nails showing in some of the grooves of the T&G finish flooring, which indicates to me that the finish flooring has been sanded down, probably twice, and is now getting down to the nail heads holding the T&G finish flooring in place.

    One photo shows something interesting - what almost looks like some type of metal clip in the finish floor?

    See all those grounding wires attached to the water pipe? First, those are likely used to serve as the equipment grounding conductors for receptacle outlets which were originally of the non-grounding type, and the receptacle outlets are now likely grounding type, secondly ... each conductor needs its own clamp to the pipe as those clamps are not rated for two conductors in the terminal screw (at least none that I have seen were ever rated for two conductors).

    Jerry Peck
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Curious what kind of subfloor this is and what type of hardwoods in the interior?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Looks like square edge sub-floor, at least in the second photos which shows what looks like a the nice square edge of one of the sub-flooring boards.

    Also, the sub-floor is run 90 degrees to the joists/beams, I've always seen it run at a 45 degree angle, that allows the finish flooring to go on in either direction and add stability to the structure - different methods in different parts of the country.
    Jerry,

    Take a look at the joist spacing. It's far greater than 16" on-center. Around my area, 2x8 T&G subfloor supported on 4x6 (sometimes 4x8 or 4x10) girders was very common in the late 1950s through the mid/late 1960s. For some reason, it was always run perpendicular to the girders and not diagonally.

    The hardwood was often a 5/16" (square-edged) thick material and was top-nailed with finish nails.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    See all those grounding wires attached to the water pipe? First, those are likely used to serve as the equipment grounding conductors for receptacle outlets which were originally of the non-grounding type, and the receptacle outlets are now likely grounding type, secondly ... each conductor needs its own clamp to the pipe as those clamps are not rated for two conductors in the terminal screw (at least none that I have seen were ever rated for two conductors).

    I thought using the water piping as an equipment grounding conductor was not allowed - Ok to use as the grounding electrode. Although, I do see that a fair amount to provide equipment grounding to receptacle outlets.


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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Curious what kind of subfloor this is and what type of hardwoods in the interior?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    Matthew,

    What part of California are you in?

    ....

    I don't understand the second pic. Is that looking straight up at the bottom of the subfloor? Is that a gap between individual boards?
    San Diego.

    The second pic is looking up showing the space between each slat. It looks like there is another type of subfloor or underlayment that's laying ontop? I'm curious if that's the underlayment that's right under the red oak hardwoods?

    Also what is T&G? tongue and groove?

    The grounding wires were installed by me after buying the house as 95% of the outlets weren't grounded. I figured this would be the simplest way for a basic ground without too much expense. I know this isn't exactly the most up to code/proper way to do the grounding as I've read you should have a grounding rod or rewire everything to your main breaker, but I didn't want to spend the time or money on that. Also, we don't get much lightning around San Diego, if that even matters.

    Last edited by Matthew Wie; 12-28-2017 at 08:07 PM.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Curious what kind of subfloor this is and what type of hardwoods in the interior?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Wie View Post
    San Diego.

    The second pic is looking up showing the space between each slat. It looks like there is another type of subfloor or underlayment that's laying ontop? I'm curious if that's the underlayment that's right under the red oak hardwoods?

    Also what is T&G? tongue and groove?

    The grounding wires were installed by me after buying the house as 95% of the outlets weren't grounded. I figured this would be the simplest way for a basic ground without too much expense. I know this isn't exactly the most up to code/proper way to do the grounding as I've read you should have a grounding rod or rewire everything to your main breaker, but I didn't want to spend the time or money on that. Also, we don't get much lightning around San Diego, if that even matters.
    I think I see a foam underlay there. You could give it a poke with a flat blade like a paint scraper to see if it is a bit resilient. That would date the flooring as fairly recent, less than 25 years anyway, but just a guess.

    That looks like good old Douglas Fir planks and as Gunnar noted, there are no floor joists per se, just built-up beams about 4 feet apart. Different standards and old growth wood, now hard as nails.
    We can't say from here if the flooring is laid directly onto the underlay, but you can find an edge somewhere, maybe by removing some baseboard trim.

    Ideally for grounding of outlets, equipment grounding, those wires clamped to the waterpipe should be connected to the electrical panel, which in turn is bonded to a ground rod or two. Your house may still be relying on the old water pipe coming in from the street for grounding. Have an electrician upgrade your grounding to ground rods beside the house. It might prevent a shock or a fire, and protects you better in the event that the city replaces or has already replaced your metal pipe with a plastic one. This happens all the time, as these old iron pipes are rusting away everywhere you go.

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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Curious what kind of subfloor this is and what type of hardwoods in the interior?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    I thought using the water piping as an equipment grounding conductor was not allowed - Ok to use as the grounding electrode. Although, I do see that a fair amount to provide equipment grounding to receptacle outlets.
    Sort of yes and no ...

    First, though, the interior water piping system is not part of the grounding electrode system, it is (supposed to be, anyway) "bonded to" the grounding electrode system. From there, we can go here:
    - Many code cycles ago, grounding replacement grounding-type receptacles to metal interior water piping which was bonded to the grounding electrode was permitted and spelled out in the code as one of the methods, as I recall (I'd have to look back to verify).
    - Today, 406.4(D) Replacements, in (1) Grounding-Type Receptacles, states: "Where a grounding mean is exists in the receptacle enclosure or an equipment grounding conductor is installed in accordance with 250.130(C), grounding-type receptacles shall be used and shall be connected to the equipment grounding conductor in accordance with 406.4(C) or 250.130(C).

    Which means that many, or at least some, of grounding-type receptacle replacements which are not grounded but are GFCI protected and labeled as being GFCI are incorrect (notice the "shall" words used throughout the above NEC code section). Meaning that if ... IF ... there is a metal box and there is a ground to that metal box or within that metal box, or a nonmetallic box with a ground within that nonmetallic box ... "grounding-type receptacles shall be used and shall be connected to the equipment grounding conductor in accordance with 406.4(C) or 250.130(C)." ... that does not allow for GFCI protection and a GFCI label ... if a ground exists ...

    It also says "or an equipment grounding conductor is installed in accordance with 250.130(C)", so an equipment grounding conductor may be installed, in which case we are back to those "shall" words again.

    Now, if we go to 250.130(C), we find several options for grounding (there are 6 options listed), none of which states that a metal interior water pipe is permitted to be used. However, it is possible that some use that interior metal water piping because ... where is it "bonded to"? ... the grounding electrode system ... which the interior metal water piping IS NOT part of (i.e., one does not want to connect it to the interior metal water piping as one does not want to INTENTIONALLY put ground-fault current on the interior metal water piping system, which that will do), however, there are those who say 'well, if the interior metal water piping is bonded to the grounding electrode system, then it is the same thing, right?' ... nope, two different systems.

    Homeowners and DIYers do not understand or know the difference of the various systems, so that is still done (probably because at one time it used to be acceptable, as I recall).

    However, what I was pointing out was this: when you see various wires going to an interior metal water piping system in an old house which would have had nongrounding-type receptacle outlets ... think "the nongrounding-type receptacles have been replaced with grounding-type receptacles and this is how those have been "grounded" (I put that "grounded" in quotes because it is not "properly" "grounded", the grounds have only been "bonded" to a "bonded" interior metal water piping system, and in doing so, any ground-fault current is not placed on that interior metal water piping.

    Theoretically - while it may seem to be the same thing as "being grounded", when there is a ground-fault, the entire interior metal water piping system is now energized ... and it was bonded to the grounding electrode system to help keep that from happening, and if it did happen, to help provide a path for that fault current to go to ground as easily as possible to avoid electrical shocks, injury, or death.

    Regarding the floor structure, I got the wide spacing of the beams part, but I missed the "2" part of the 2x8 sub-floor and was thinking "1" as in 1x8 (I was used to seeing 1x6 and 1x8, square edge on older-older houses and T&G on older-but-not-as-old houses).

    Jerry Peck
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Curious what kind of subfloor this is and what type of hardwoods in the interior?

    Planked fir if i am not mistaken. Perpendicular to joists. Moreover, I observe diagonal planking more often than not.

    T&G, Tongue and groove was not utilized in sub flooring or at least I have never seen it in 1950 cercia buildings.

    Just my 2 cents.

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    Default Re: Curious what kind of subfloor this is and what type of hardwoods in the interior?

    OK if it is one receptacle.
    250.130(C) allows for a separate EGC to be run from the grounding bus bar in the main panel to a receptacle to provide an EGC for an ungrounded receptacle, allowing you to replace that receptacle with a grounding type receptacle.


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    Default Re: Curious what kind of subfloor this is and what type of hardwoods in the interior?

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    OK if it is one receptacle.


    ???

    [/quote]250.130(C) allows for a separate EGC to be run from the grounding bus bar in the main panel to a receptacle to provide an EGC for an ungrounded receptacle, allowing you to replace that receptacle with a grounding type receptacle.
    [/QUOTE]

    WHAT is "OK"?

    One receptacle or many receptacles, that still does not state anything about "bonding" it to a "bonded" interior metal water piping system.

    It is best if you actually quote what the code says, not paraphrase it with your wording - I don't see that wording in 250.130(C) - what wording ... quote the wording ... states what you stated, and provide the edition is it out of if not the current edition ... inquiring minds want to know.

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    Default Re: Curious what kind of subfloor this is and what type of hardwoods in the interior?

    From M&C Mike Holt.
    I read several 250.130 code references.
    Mike Holt again. For Ungrounded Systems. The service disconnecting means supplied by an ungrounded utility system must have the service-disconnect enclosure grounded to a grounding electrode in accordance with 250.24(E). The equipment grounding (bonding) conductors must also be bonded to the grounding (earthing) electrodes [250.130(B)].

    250.130. Replacing. 'Nongrounding.' Receptacles. The allowable methods of connecting an equipment grounding conductor to replacement receptacles were increased.

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    Default Re: Curious what kind of subfloor this is and what type of hardwoods in the interior?

    Robert,

    Your point is what?

    It would help if you would actually post some information.

    The information I gave was from the 2017 NEC ... that's the newest and current code.

    Jerry Peck
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    Default Re: Curious what kind of subfloor this is and what type of hardwoods in the interior?

    Calls came in. I had no time to edit the post. Excuse me.
    I understand about the code cycle.

    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 12-30-2017 at 01:39 AM.
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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Curious what kind of subfloor this is and what type of hardwoods in the interior?

    Could that be a form of deck house construction? Acorn is one of the companies that does it.


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