Results 1 to 11 of 11
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Erwin, TN
    Posts
    330

    Default Non-GFCI outlet on bar cabinet

    Would this fall into the IRC 2000 standards for GFCI protection because these outlets shown in this picture are NOT GFCI protected (you can see the sink faucet on the other side)
    IRC E3802.6 Kitchen receptacles- E3802.7 Bar sink receptacles
    receptacles that serve a countertop surface, and are located within 6 feet (1829 mm) of the outside edge of a wet bar sink shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel. Thank You

    Similar Threads:
    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    Crawl Space Creeper

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Southern Vancouver Island
    Posts
    4,607

    Default Re: Non-GFCI outlet on bar cabinet

    Yes, it should have the GFCI, but if you want to talk Code, it depends on when the bar was built. JP will elucidate.

    I inspected a condo where they were in violation of the new code, but the plans had been approved before the code change, so the place was built to the old standards and approved for occupancy by the AHJ.
    I threw the recommendation into my report, because it is a worthwhile upgrade no matter what.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Erwin, TN
    Posts
    330

    Default Re: Non-GFCI outlet on bar cabinet

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    Yes, it should have the GFCI, but if you want to talk Code, it depends on when the bar was built. JP will elucidate.

    I inspected a condo where they were in violation of the new code, but the plans had been approved before the code change, so the place was built to the old standards and approved for occupancy by the AHJ.
    I threw the recommendation into my report, because it is a worthwhile upgrade no matter what.
    Thank You


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fletcher, NC
    Posts
    28,032

    Default Re: Non-GFCI outlet on bar cabinet

    Let's dissect what it says:

    From the 2003 IRC (the 2000 IRC is not readily available online and I didn't want to dig it out of my bookshelf as the "real book"): (underlining and bold are mine)
    - E3802.7 Bar sink receptacles. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles that serve a countertop surface, and are located within 6 feet (1829 mm) of the outside edge of a wet bar sink shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel. Receptacle outlets shall not be installed in a face-up position in the work surfaces or countertops.

    At first glance that seems to say 'serve a countertop surface and are located within 6 feet' (meaning receptacle which "serve the countertop surface" "and" "are located within 6 feet" ... but it doesn't say that, what it says is:
    - "serve a countertop surface, and are located within 6 feet" ... see that comma? That means receptacles which serve the countertop surfaces ... "and" ... which are also located within 6 feet of the wet bar sink.

    That means that receptacles which serve the countertop surfaces but are located 'more than 6 feet' from the edge of the wet bar sink did not require GFCI protection.

    Likewise, receptacles which do not "serve the countertop surfaces" are excluded from required GFCI protection too ... although as John said, always include those in your 'these things should be done list'.

    Now, if that had said:
    - 'that serve a countertop surface, and receptacles that are located within 6 feet (1829 mm) of the outside edge of a wet bar sink'
    ... or ...
    - 'that serve a countertop surface, or are located within 6 feet (1829 mm) of the outside edge of a wet bar sink'

    - then all wet bar receptacles which serve the countertop surface (regardless of distance from the sink)
    - "and"
    - all receptacles within 6 feet of the edge of the sink (regardless where the receptacle was located)
    ... would need GFCI protection

    ... but it doesn't say it either of those ways.

    Jerry Peck
    Construction/Litigation/Code Consultant - Retired
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Erwin, TN
    Posts
    330

    Default Re: Non-GFCI outlet on bar cabinet

    Thank you Jerry, makes more sense now


  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fletcher, NC
    Posts
    28,032

    Default Re: Non-GFCI outlet on bar cabinet

    Here is another question: that doesn't look like a wet bar, that looks like a kitchen, with the kitchen sink.

    If so, then that changes things as the wet bar section does not apply, the kitchen section applies.

    Jerry Peck
    Construction/Litigation/Code Consultant - Retired
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Erwin, TN
    Posts
    330

    Default Re: Non-GFCI outlet on bar cabinet

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Here is another question: that doesn't look like a wet bar, that looks like a kitchen, with the kitchen sink.

    If so, then that changes things as the wet bar section does not apply, the kitchen section applies.
    Im sorry, I meant to say kitchen bar


  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fletcher, NC
    Posts
    28,032

    Default Re: Non-GFCI outlet on bar cabinet

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Morris View Post
    Im sorry, I meant to say kitchen bar
    The kitchen is simpler: (underlining is mine)
    - E3802.6 Kitchen receptacles. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles that serve the countertop surfaces shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

    "all" ... "that serve the countertop surface"

    The receptacle in question is still not included (see previous discussion for wet bar countertop surfaces), but, in kitchens, "all" receptacles "that serve the countertop", regardless of distance from the sink.

    Jerry Peck
    Construction/Litigation/Code Consultant - Retired
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    California
    Posts
    163

    Default Re: Non-GFCI outlet on bar cabinet

    I look at it as basic common sense. Looking at the location of that receptacle and imagine a blender sitting on the counter plugged in to it during a margarita party. The host is washing glasses in the sink behind there and some drunk friend staggers by, accidentally knocks the blender into that sink.
    If you imagine senarios like that, code or no code it is obvious that receptical needs protection.


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fletcher, NC
    Posts
    28,032

    Default Re: Non-GFCI outlet on bar cabinet

    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth Chambers View Post
    I look at it as basic common sense. Looking at the location of that receptacle and imagine a blender sitting on the counter plugged in to it during a margarita party. The host is washing glasses in the sink behind there and some drunk friend staggers by, accidentally knocks the blender into that sink.
    If you imagine senarios like that, code or no code it is obvious that receptical needs protection.
    The cord on that blender will likely not reach that receptacle outlet, the receptacle outlet in question on the wall. Thus, no harm, no foul.

    As you said, "look at it as basic common sense" - and appliances like that come with short cords for a reason.

    The old 6 foot rule? Based on the tip to tip reach of an average male's reach (men are typically taller than women, so they use a "typical" man's reach as that would "typically" exceed a "typical" woman's reach).

    Countertop surface serving receptacles? Because appliances designed for use on countertops have short cords which would not reach the typical wall receptacle.

    Codes are minimum requirements, not "safe" requirements.

    Again, "basic common sense".

    Jerry Peck
    Construction/Litigation/Code Consultant - Retired
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    California
    Posts
    163

    Default Re: Non-GFCI outlet on bar cabinet

    Ok, Jerry sir, that was a made-up senario, you are of course correct about the imaginary blender cord. You have a highly developed critical mind, which IMOP a wonderful asset.


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •